Best paint ?

[Mr_B]

Here's a question for body shop painters. What would you consider the best paint to be, and do various paint types fit with different types of use, or is there really a one is best type.
Lets say you are restoring a car that's a bare shell rebuild and total nut and bolt job. It's going to be painted to an original colour of a non-mettalic red and have a finished value of say 20 - 30K when done and while not being a show car, pretty close and be used for a couple of thousand miles a year.

I know nothing about various types of paint, so what would you use in the above example and could you say any differences and any suitablility variations, if any. Also an idea of costs between any different paint systems would be great.
Thanks

[domster]

I think 'best painter' would be a better question to ask. It's a bit like asking what paints you'd use to create the next masterpiece to grace the walls of the Louvre. Some paints cost a bit more, some a little less, but feck all that price per litre nonsense. It's who's doing the prep, the spraying and the finishing that I'd worry about. I'd rather the best painter in the world use cheaper paints than a rubbish painter using a very expensive paint.

Get recommendations for decent painters in your area - or beyond. You need to be prepared to travel. Truly excellent painters are few and far between. Most bodyshops will do an OK job, but the really good places will charge many thousands. After the labour, the few hundred quid in paint and sundries will pale into insignificance.

[Mr_B]

domster said:

I think 'best painter' would be a better question to ask. It's a bit like asking what paints you'd use to create the next masterpiece to grace the walls of the Louvre. Some paints cost a bit more, some a little less, but feck all that price per litre nonsense. It's who's doing the prep, the spraying and the finishing that I'd worry about. I'd rather the best painter in the world use cheaper paints than a rubbish painter using a very expensive paint.

Get recommendations for decent painters in your area - or beyond. You need to be prepared to travel. Truly excellent painters are few and far between. Most bodyshops will do an OK job, but the really good places will charge many thousands. After the labour, the few hundred quid in paint and sundries will pale into insignificance.

Thanks for taking time to reply. I fully agree with what you say about finding a painter, but while I'm not at that stage yet, I would like to have a better of what , if any, paint is best for the type of work I'm looking for.

I'm not looking to try and save a few Pounds on paint, was more just wondering if they vary in suitability. For example, do some give a better finish but prone to stone chipping easily, so not suited more mega-miles cars, but better for a concours car that never gets driven. I have no idea if that would be even possible, but as with everything in life, you get what you pay for, so wondering what the differences are, and do you pick types of paint over others, pehaps on mettalics over non-mettalics etc.
Would just be interested to hear what any decent body shop people would pick type and brands wise if they were doing a bare shell restoration.

[Squiggs]

Basically there are two kinds of paint - those that require lacquer which is now always used on new cars and the most commonly used in most bodyshops and is usually a water based paint. To answer your question about chipping to this type of paint - the quality of the paint doesn't really matter with w/b it's going to be the toughness of the lacquer that determines its longevity and that's a another complete mine field. - Then there's what some would call more 'traditional' a two pack paint that doesn't require lacquer (when you see a faded red car usually it won't have lacquer over it and if not correctly looked after the Ultra Violet fades the paint which is always more prominent on a red)
I'm guessing you're asking about 2 pack, of which I'm afraid I have little knowledge but suspect there must be 'the good, the bad and the ugly' within that field.

[yodel]

I haven't got a clue about paint but dont tell your chosen painter what to use. If he's good enough to undertake your job for you then his materials of choice will be good enough. Crap painters will let the customer dictate, good painters do it their way. Why would any painter use materials they are not familiar with and risk tarnishing a good reputation. Reputations take a long while to gain but can be lost very quickly.

[domster]

There are cellulose paints (old solvent type), two pack paints (they use a separate hardener) and the modern clearcoat systems (clear lacquer over colour base). The harder the paint the more prone it may be to chipping; softer paint scratches easily but can resist stonechips better. So there's no real right or wrong, but any modern bodyshop will be using a clear over base system. You could then go for a very tough ceramic clearcoat, but then any scratches in this will be more difficult to remove later on. So again, it's a compromise. Softer paints are easier to polish on an ongoing basis.

PPG, BASF, Glasurit... lots of manufacturers out there, and bodyshops will have their own favourite. Or go custom and check out House of Kolor etc. All you really need to do is choose a colour though and I'd definitely recommend clear over base. Then make sure the sprayer knows what they are doing and preps/sprays/finishes well. Spec wise I'd probably go for a medium hard clearcoat, to allow for moderate stone chip resistance and for swirls to be removed later. I am not convinced by ultra-hard clearcoats but I'm sure others like them as a finish. I think if you do go down the ultra-hard route, something like PPG CeramiClear may be up your street. But I wouldn't be so fussed, just see what the sprayer prefers as has been hinted at here. They will know what is good and what they like to use.

[PJ S]

Point of concern for the PPG Ceramiclear, which MB had exclusive use of, if not still do, is that the hardness is in the top few microns of the clearcoat.
If you buff through that, you're into a fairly ordinary clearcoat from there on in.
BMW have hard paint, that can be prone to marking easily through using a high solids content.

Whilst not mentioned, you could do well to have a chat with Kelly at KDS Keltec - what he doesn't know about most paint systems, isn't worth knowing about probably.
I'm sure there are other top flight painters around the country as well, but there's one at least to get some info from regarding what you should be considering and looking for in your chosen painter, if not using Kelly himself.
At least then, you'll be able to weed out the wheat from the chaff, before settling on who to use, and which paints they are familiar or prefer to use.
Remember that they might use one type for whomever they are employed by, but left to their own devices, might choose another for technical reasons, but don't use often because the price is more than the insurance repairs will permit.

I would also exercise caution that just because you get quoted a high(er) price, you can't automatically assume they'd do a better job - so don't fall into the false security that more expensive equals better quality.

[Mr_B]

Many thanks all.

[kds keltec]

Mr_B said:

Here's a question for body shop painters.

Lets say you are restoring a car that's a bare shell rebuild and total nut and bolt job. It's going to be painted to an original colour of a non-mettalic red and have a finished value of say 20 - 30K when done and while not being a show car, pretty close and be used for a couple of thousand miles a year.


Thanks

Here is a red car we painted this year and should give you an idea of finish that can be achieved with the latest modern (current) paint materials.

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...






heaven forbid that you lovely freashly painted car got a small amount of damage or even just a scuff, it would be nice to know that the materials used are readily available for future work if needed .

kelly

[andygtt]

Im actually looking for the answer to above as well... been considering House of Kolor because theirs is the best possible finish... but will it last??

All very well asking the paint shops but they usually use a specific one and thus recomend that... getting the paint ranked in quality, durability and finish would be great.
Im too am not interested in saving a few pennies, just want o know what ok, and whats outstanding?

[kds keltec]

andygtt said:

Im actually looking for the answer to above as well... been considering House of Kolor because theirs is the best possible finish... but will it last??

All very well asking the paint shops but they usually use a specific one and thus recomend that... getting the paint ranked in quality, durability and finish would be great.
Im too am not interested in saving a few pennies, just want o know what ok, and whats outstanding?

Where did you here that house of colour have the best possible finish ?

I was at sema this year , (mainly for the paint hall) all the big players were there with demo cars/panels/bike tanks you name it.

I found flaws in the cars that were painted be famous painters in the USA and sitting on certain paint manufactures stands.

the flaws were nothing to do with "which" paint was used.

I viewed the most incredible monster truck with over 1000 hours air brushing, but it still had primer showing or should i say lack of colour coat around rear lights and a very dry finish with lack of gloss on lower edges , but the rest of the vehicle was stunning.

Also found all cars had wet sanding marks and swirls.

was not this truck with edge problem but you get the idea of the scale of the paintwork level on show, then let done by simple errors



this car was the famous painter demo , looked straight as a die ,



but up close hand sanding marks not fully removed



this car again looked cool as "xxxx"




nice run in the paint



and up close got just worse



these were captured on very cheap tiny camera too , it was quite easy to see in the flesh

kelly

[kds keltec]

I was hoping for perfect flat reflections like this



this shows the finish straight out of the gun



another area very tricky to get right and want the best possible finish possible straight from the gun



as regards finish/hardness/stone chip resistant , if your going balls out then you would need to paint as normal and bake , wet flat whole car and then re lacquer bake , wet flat polish .

kelly

[kds keltec]

PJS ,

PPG ceramic clear is available

branned under 2 other makes and renamed to keep people happy

edit to say , the enzo was painted with PPG paint.

kelly

[andygtt]

So if I wanted a finish like the enzo in the ppt paint... With a straight carbon fibre car... What would be the rough cost?

Are we talking more than a new ford?

[kds keltec]

andygtt said:

So if I wanted a finish like the enzo in the ppt paint... With a straight carbon fibre car... What would be the rough cost?

Are we talking more than a new ford?

Thats actually not that straight forward to answer.

I WILL be writing a new price menu for painting on my website in line with our other packages that will have 4 levels of resprays and description of each, this should hopefully help public to gauge budgets and whats involved.

various factors will alter costs.
below is just quickly off the top of my head.

1) size of vehicle
2) colour of vehicle (paint can be £30 per litre/£300 per litre and anything in between)
3) condition of vehicle to be resprayed
4) entire car to be spray or just outer (on show panels)
5) full strip down of vehicle or masked up
6) Average Gun finish or hand worked perfect flat finish
7) sub-base material to be painted (A tvr to get perfect flat wobble free panels will take a lot longer than production metal car), but of course a rusty car will need more work than a none damaged fibre glass car.
8) Time scale to repaint vehicle , is it a long term car or rush job, we have 3 cars here now for total respray that have been given an open ended time scale that as long as they are ready for late spring/summer

budget between 2K and 20k , and no the Enzo would not 20k as the shuts are matt black, underneath of bonnet and engine cover are bare carbon fibre , engine bay is all plastic and carbon fibre , and also most of the car was stripped but not windows and the rubbers were lifted only.







kelly

[andygtt]

I have remade my panels for my Noble in carbon fibre (yes vac bagged, I taught myself to do it this year)... so they are similar in finish to a standard Enzo now (stock noble is full of filler, my panels are pretty close out of my moulds).

some of the car will be laquered carbon (be rude not to)... I've done all the strip and there are no repairs to be done.

I have a budget of around 3.5k... but I also have all the paint gear and Im wondering if I will get a better finish myself simply in that I will spend a huge amount more hrs doing it that a paint shop will for that kind of cash.... so its not all about saving money but getting the finish.

Im not asking for a quote... just asking if I am being unrealistic... I would of cause rent an oven if I did it myself.

[Kidders]

Best paint, Glasurit without a doubt. Bear in mind your supposed to use a proper clearcoat for carbon fibre. Not done it myself, but good friends with a guy that used to spray for McLaren, needless to say his work was top notch.

[Defcon5]

Kelly, was that enzo having a colour change? If not how come you painted it rather than polishing it?

[richtvr]

We use glasurit clears but ppg have the best basecoats.

[jds32]

Personally from experience I liked ppg/ici basecoats and sikkens clearcoat. I used glasurit only because the bodyshop I worked at had to for vw approval, I didn't see what the fuss was personally and thought it was very ££££££££.