Discussion
Looking at a 997 GT2. A previous owner told me that it had a rev in range 4 just before he bought so Porsche stripped it, took photos and approved the warranty.
I requested a 111pt check to be carried out. Here's the results: (copied from another forum)
I requested a 111pt check to be carried out. Here's the results: (copied from another forum)
bryce said:
The car has now had its 111pt check. Coupla silly things but this one is the most concerning..
"Over rev's in range 4, the car needs to be free of over rev's for the next 200 hours driving which would be 2,000miles approx. A compression test would need to be submitted to Porsche to get warranty approved"
In my thinking thats near 10k miles and a few years for me!
Could it be possible that they've picked up an old over rev (the one that happened at 1yr old 2k miles) or are they not that stoopid? I've requested the hours breakdown thing but not heard back yet.
_________"Over rev's in range 4, the car needs to be free of over rev's for the next 200 hours driving which would be 2,000miles approx. A compression test would need to be submitted to Porsche to get warranty approved"
In my thinking thats near 10k miles and a few years for me!
Could it be possible that they've picked up an old over rev (the one that happened at 1yr old 2k miles) or are they not that stoopid? I've requested the hours breakdown thing but not heard back yet.
me again said:
I spoke to the seller again today to question when this range 4 actually happened and told him its daft to think I'll can do 200 hours in a short period of time.
Here's what he said (after speaking to Porsche)
"the car actually over rev'd 152 hours ago, so therefore doesn't need to do 200 hours".
So I ask "does that just mean it needs 48 hours rev free?".
"No, none at all. Just free from revs 5 and 6 - I'll send you the new report"
"Over rev's in range 4, the car needs to be free of over rev's in range 5 and 6 until the next 111 pt check is carried out. A compression test would need to be submitted to Porsche to get warranty approved"
Thoughts...
Here's what he said (after speaking to Porsche)
"the car actually over rev'd 152 hours ago, so therefore doesn't need to do 200 hours".
So I ask "does that just mean it needs 48 hours rev free?".
"No, none at all. Just free from revs 5 and 6 - I'll send you the new report"
"Over rev's in range 4, the car needs to be free of over rev's in range 5 and 6 until the next 111 pt check is carried out. A compression test would need to be submitted to Porsche to get warranty approved"
Thoughts...
Your second quote answers your question. It is normal practice in this circumstance for a compression test to carried out and the results submitted to Porsche to see if they will allow a warranty on the car. Be aware that it can take a week or more to get a response.
If this is the only issue you have with a car I would agree a price subject to Porsche agreeing to put a warranty on the car. Get the vendor to stump up the cost of the compression test (it will be a few hundred quid on a GT2). If it passes you buy the car at the agreed price, if it fails you have lost nothing.
If this is the only issue you have with a car I would agree a price subject to Porsche agreeing to put a warranty on the car. Get the vendor to stump up the cost of the compression test (it will be a few hundred quid on a GT2). If it passes you buy the car at the agreed price, if it fails you have lost nothing.
bryce86 said:
When I spoke to some senior Porsche techs (gold level) about overrevs they told me the overrevs do not make any difference, unless the car is in for something wrong with the engine.Then the overrevs matter because if they show the car suffered a missed shift recently this can void the warranty. Porsche does not replace engines under warranty if the owner/driver screwed up.
The techs told me they would like to see an engine with at least one (1) hour of run time with the engine exhibiting not even so much as a hint of any issues.
Certainly this means the engine should start just fine cold, idle ok as it warms up and once warm run just fine from low engine speed operation to hard full throttle acceleration runs through as many gears as the test driver has room to accelerate.
The engine should make only happy Porsche engine noises.
The CEL should come on at key on and go dark when the engine starts.
Throughout the test drive the CEL should not come on not even flash.
Now a car with 2, 20, 200 or even more hours of engine run time since the last range 4 (or any range) overrev and even though it is not exhibiting any issues signs may still not be a good purchase simply because the number of overrevs in any or all other ranges is high enough it shows the car was well, thrashed.
I might add given 30mph is an average speed 200 hours of engine run time works out to 6000 miles.
Edited by Rockster on Wednesday 5th December 00:55
bryce86 said:
Thanks lads. I've asked for the full DME report to see the exact hour/ ignitions / range etc but the garage (Ferrari) tell me porsche doesn't do that..
It is doable. Whether a Porsche dealer would agree to do it is different, I guess.I've only "had" it done once and this was when I was shopping for a used 996 Turbo. The DME readout with engine run time in hours and decimal hours along with over rev counters was in the CPO paperwork package I was given to review even before I agreed to buy the car.
A PPI should have the DME engine run time and over rev counters read out as part of the PPI. Anything less is a well, not a PPI.
Porsche do do that. Anyone with a reader does do that.
It'll show current operating hours and at what operating hours the last rev range naughties occurred.
I've had a garage claim not to be able to print the data before, to overcome this they just took a photo of the screen.
ETA: I appreciate GT2s don't grow on trees, but I'd be looking at others...
It'll show current operating hours and at what operating hours the last rev range naughties occurred.
I've had a garage claim not to be able to print the data before, to overcome this they just took a photo of the screen.
ETA: I appreciate GT2s don't grow on trees, but I'd be looking at others...
Edited by MrCooke on Friday 7th December 07:06
Rev range 4 on a 7GT2 is 7350rpm IIRC, this is not likely to be a missed shift more likely to be just a good bounce off the limiter in a lower gear where the momentum/inertia will have kept the revs spinning up.
7350rpm is not going to harm a 7GT2 engine.
Range 5 is 7850 which again is unlikely to harm a 7GT2 engine.
Range 6 is the naughty bad shift one at 8950rpm and this could harm the motor.
My built 7GT2 engine revs to 7400rpm as standard and I have a pal whose built 7GT2 engine runs to 7800rpm limit which he uses all the time. Built engines are balanced, stronger rods, valve springs etc but point is the basic architecture is strong enough to go into the low 7000rpms.
I detect the problem is more to do with needing a warranty ? I guess if you need a warranty then you have to play Porsche's game and jump through their hoops, if you want to go alone be encouraged by remembering that these Mezger engines can be easily rebuilt, an over rev "failure" (type 1-4) will not mean buying a brand new crate engine.
7350rpm is not going to harm a 7GT2 engine.
Range 5 is 7850 which again is unlikely to harm a 7GT2 engine.
Range 6 is the naughty bad shift one at 8950rpm and this could harm the motor.
My built 7GT2 engine revs to 7400rpm as standard and I have a pal whose built 7GT2 engine runs to 7800rpm limit which he uses all the time. Built engines are balanced, stronger rods, valve springs etc but point is the basic architecture is strong enough to go into the low 7000rpms.
I detect the problem is more to do with needing a warranty ? I guess if you need a warranty then you have to play Porsche's game and jump through their hoops, if you want to go alone be encouraged by remembering that these Mezger engines can be easily rebuilt, an over rev "failure" (type 1-4) will not mean buying a brand new crate engine.
TB993tt said:
more likely to be just a good bounce off the limiter in a lower gear where the momentum/inertia will have kept the revs spinning up.
Can you explain this a bit more? If the fuel is cut, you have no more energy going into the system, so it cannot gain any more circular momentum.alock said:
Can you explain this a bit more? If the fuel is cut, you have no more energy going into the system, so it cannot gain any more circular momentum.
I understand what you mean and certainly on a low power high japanese revver this certainly won't happen but on a big boost twin turbo Porsche it appears to happen a lot.If you see the Durametric trace below, this is in second gear with the rev limit at 7400rpm, you can see the revs reached 7518rpm (note the low MAF indicates the rev limiter is breached - probably) so some how the engine managed another 118rpm with no fuel ?
Apart from this point of "physics" the Porsche ECUs do read some very spurious over revs, I have loads of data and it has recorded up to 7800rpm when I know for a fact I have never missed a shift, I don't know whether these are just erroneous "spikes" but I know that the Porsche reading tools also see them.... Another reason why I think the lower 1-5 rev ranges are b
ks 
TB993tt said:
alock said:
Can you explain this a bit more? If the fuel is cut, you have no more energy going into the system, so it cannot gain any more circular momentum.
I understand what you mean and certainly on a low power high japanese revver this certainly won't happen but on a big boost twin turbo Porsche it appears to happen a lot.If you see the Durametric trace below, this is in second gear with the rev limit at 7400rpm, you can see the revs reached 7518rpm (note the low MAF indicates the rev limiter is breached - probably) so some how the engine managed another 118rpm with no fuel ?
Apart from this point of "physics" the Porsche ECUs do read some very spurious over revs, I have loads of data and it has recorded up to 7800rpm when I know for a fact I have never missed a shift, I don't know whether these are just erroneous "spikes" but I know that the Porsche reading tools also see them.... Another reason why I think the lower 1-5 rev ranges are b
ks Where it is benefical we will raise the rpm limit on our 9E Cars e.g. if there is actually a benefit in doing so because power continues to climb, but we stick with 7300 for longevity - the lifters don't like to be much over that limit for substained periods since they are not solid.
The other thing within the DME is that when we set a limit of 7300, the actual point at which the limiter cuts in is around 100rpm less, so to achieve 7300 actual we have to set 7400 as a value. I presume the 100rpm difference is something to do with timing e.g. by the time it recognises the RPM, it already needs to be actioning the request and give the user time to respond.
Rockster said:
When I spoke to some senior Porsche techs (gold level) about overrevs they told me the overrevs do not make any difference, unless the car is in for something wrong with the engine.
Then the overrevs matter because if they show the car suffered a missed shift recently this can void the warranty. Porsche does not replace engines under warranty if the owner/driver screwed up.
The techs told me they would like to see an engine with at least one (1) hour of run time with the engine exhibiting not even so much as a hint of any issues.
Certainly this means the engine should start just fine cold, idle ok as it warms up and once warm run just fine from low engine speed operation to hard full throttle acceleration runs through as many gears as the test driver has room to accelerate.
The engine should make only happy Porsche engine noises.
The CEL should come on at key on and go dark when the engine starts.
Throughout the test drive the CEL should not come on not even flash.
Now a car with 2, 20, 200 or even more hours of engine run time since the last range 4 (or any range) overrev and even though it is not exhibiting any issues signs may still not be a good purchase simply because the number of overrevs in any or all other ranges is high enough it shows the car was well, thrashed.
I might add given 30mph is an average speed 200 hours of engine run time works out to 6000 miles.
Respectfully I would suggest you are being given duff information here.Then the overrevs matter because if they show the car suffered a missed shift recently this can void the warranty. Porsche does not replace engines under warranty if the owner/driver screwed up.
The techs told me they would like to see an engine with at least one (1) hour of run time with the engine exhibiting not even so much as a hint of any issues.
Certainly this means the engine should start just fine cold, idle ok as it warms up and once warm run just fine from low engine speed operation to hard full throttle acceleration runs through as many gears as the test driver has room to accelerate.
The engine should make only happy Porsche engine noises.
The CEL should come on at key on and go dark when the engine starts.
Throughout the test drive the CEL should not come on not even flash.
Now a car with 2, 20, 200 or even more hours of engine run time since the last range 4 (or any range) overrev and even though it is not exhibiting any issues signs may still not be a good purchase simply because the number of overrevs in any or all other ranges is high enough it shows the car was well, thrashed.
I might add given 30mph is an average speed 200 hours of engine run time works out to 6000 miles.
Edited by Rockster on Wednesday 5th December 00:55
Just because an engine "runs good" for an hour after an over-rev does not mean you are out of the woods. Particularly in relation to timing gear damage faults can materialise some time after an over rev. I would set the safe time at around 100 hours, possibly even a bit more to be sure.
Henry
Edited by Henry-F on Friday 7th December 15:23
Henry-F said:
Respectfully I would suggest you are being given duff information here.
Just because an engine "runs good" for an hour after an over-rev does not mean you are out of the woods. Particularly in relation to timing gear damage faults can materialise some time after an over rev. I would set the safe time at around 100 hours, possibly even a bit more to be sure.
Henry
Henry, is it possible to check the actual hour when the rev ranges occured with equipment other than the PIWIS2? Just because an engine "runs good" for an hour after an over-rev does not mean you are out of the woods. Particularly in relation to timing gear damage faults can materialise some time after an over rev. I would set the safe time at around 100 hours, possibly even a bit more to be sure.
Henry
Edited by Henry-F on Friday 7th December 15:23
When I had my 997 hooked onto the vendor's Durametric equipment we could see the rev ranges but what he couldn't see was when they had occured. Btw, this was with a very good Porsche indy, so he knows his Porsche, although its normally his colleagues that work on the 9X6/7 cars.
RiccardoG said:
Henry, is it possible to check the actual hour when the rev ranges occured with equipment other than the PIWIS2?
When I had my 997 hooked onto the vendor's Durametric equipment we could see the rev ranges but what he couldn't see was when they had occured. Btw, this was with a very good Porsche indy, so he knows his Porsche, although its normally his colleagues that work on the 9X6/7 cars.
I'm not familiar with the Durametric product. Certainly we are able to tell the last time a rev incident happened and this information is critical, more so now changes have been made to the Porsche warranty requirements.When I had my 997 hooked onto the vendor's Durametric equipment we could see the rev ranges but what he couldn't see was when they had occured. Btw, this was with a very good Porsche indy, so he knows his Porsche, although its normally his colleagues that work on the 9X6/7 cars.
Henry
Henry-F said:
Respectfully I would suggest you are being given duff information here.
Just because an engine "runs good" for an hour after an over-rev does not mean you are out of the woods. Particularly in relation to timing gear damage faults can materialise some time after an over rev. I would set the safe time at around 100 hours, possibly even a bit more to be sure.
Henry
One hour of run time is plenty of time. Generally when something bad happens arising from an over rev event one knows right then and there. It is a nice piece of reinforcement not to do that again.Just because an engine "runs good" for an hour after an over-rev does not mean you are out of the woods. Particularly in relation to timing gear damage faults can materialise some time after an over rev. I would set the safe time at around 100 hours, possibly even a bit more to be sure.
Henry
Edited by Henry-F on Friday 7th December 15:23
Now this one hour should be one hour of engine run time during which the it gets used in a thorough test drive the details I've covered before.
The only time the one hour guideline might not apply is if the over rev events are so numerous, the severity of the events is high, even if the engine exhibited no untoward behavior during a one hour test drive one might decide the over rev counts and such represents an engine that has been thrashed and is therefore best to avoid.
Henry-F said:
I'm not familiar with the Durametric product. Certainly we are able to tell the last time a rev incident happened and this information is critical, more so now changes have been made to the Porsche warranty requirements.
Henry
Thanks. Actually, I meant Autologic equipment, which is the same one you use. This oneHenry
So you confirm its possible to see the exact engine running hour for each overrev? Can't understand why it wasn't showing when we had a look...
Rockster said:
One hour of run time is plenty of time. Generally when something bad happens arising from an over rev event one knows right then and there. It is a nice piece of reinforcement not to do that again.
Now this one hour should be one hour of engine run time during which the it gets used in a thorough test drive the details I've covered before.
The only time the one hour guideline might not apply is if the over rev events are so numerous, the severity of the events is high, even if the engine exhibited no untoward behavior during a one hour test drive one might decide the over rev counts and such represents an engine that has been thrashed and is therefore best to avoid.
With the greatest of respect you are wrong.Now this one hour should be one hour of engine run time during which the it gets used in a thorough test drive the details I've covered before.
The only time the one hour guideline might not apply is if the over rev events are so numerous, the severity of the events is high, even if the engine exhibited no untoward behavior during a one hour test drive one might decide the over rev counts and such represents an engine that has been thrashed and is therefore best to avoid.
This week we have seen a car which would pass your test with flying colours, has done significantly in excess the one hour you suggest but which has issues which will turn out to be terminal.
You are confusing something like valves clipping piston crowns with other possible damage.
Thankfully there are technicians other than your "gold" ones who take a slightly more scientific approach.
Re: the Autologic tester we feel it is the best of the bunch largely because of the immense knowledge which exists in their development and technical team. They are constantly striving to improve the product and that is how we came to work with them many years ago now. At the time we were somewhat unusual within the used sales arena, it turned out to be a very shrewd move.
With Autologic you aren't just buying a box you are buying technical support and backup which rivals that offered by the factory. It may even exceed it at times, certainly there is no corporate script which needs adhering to.
In truth we are supported by a wide range of sources, the franchise network included but Autologic have been superb over a number of years.
Henry
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