Jag XK8, a reminder of why we should/shouldn't be buying one
Discussion
I fancy, as a bit of a toy - a cheap V8 coupe. It would be something to keep and keep. I know the subject might have already been done to death on here but I'd like to hear from the owners of the early XK8s, up to 2001 model years. They look smashing value for what is, in my eyes, still a very exotic looking sports car. The shape is timeless. I followed a Champagne coloured one yesterday, and thought it looked stunning - it can't have been any newer than a V plate. My reservation is that I'm pig ignorant when it comes to Jags; I've just never been there, a bit of a Jag virgin you might say! Common foibles I know about: timing chains that snap and weak gearboxes. How many of us have suffered this? Does the rule apply to seek out cars with 100k+ miles with the biggest expenditure behind them? What else? Mechanics have told me stories of floor pans having to be welded, but this seems rather extreme and unusual.
I've bought and sold X-types; they do nothing for me, and am of the camp who agree that they're just a fancy Mondeo. The only experience I've had of a 'proper' Jag is a ride in and drive of a mate's XJ X300; the quality I thought was patchy in places but nonetheless I really like the car. It's a grand's worth of barge that feels quite special to smoke round in. The XK8 prospect frightens me and appeals in equal measures. The attraction is that they look a hell of a lot more of a car than the CLK430 I'm also looking at - the Merc seems safe and sober in comparison. Save for the occasional rust, my experiences with old Mercs have always been good, and Merc's V8s are a corker. The Jag could very well be a money-pit. Clarkson raved about them and went out and bought one when they were new, he had one of the first. With that in mind, I'm thinking they must be quite a talented car, almost something of a 'best kept secret'. I'd interested to hear people's comments, experiences etc...
They look like this:
I've bought and sold X-types; they do nothing for me, and am of the camp who agree that they're just a fancy Mondeo. The only experience I've had of a 'proper' Jag is a ride in and drive of a mate's XJ X300; the quality I thought was patchy in places but nonetheless I really like the car. It's a grand's worth of barge that feels quite special to smoke round in. The XK8 prospect frightens me and appeals in equal measures. The attraction is that they look a hell of a lot more of a car than the CLK430 I'm also looking at - the Merc seems safe and sober in comparison. Save for the occasional rust, my experiences with old Mercs have always been good, and Merc's V8s are a corker. The Jag could very well be a money-pit. Clarkson raved about them and went out and bought one when they were new, he had one of the first. With that in mind, I'm thinking they must be quite a talented car, almost something of a 'best kept secret'. I'd interested to hear people's comments, experiences etc...
They look like this:
MGZRod said:
Well, theres a memeber in the scotland section had his XKR gearbox rebuilt for around £7k IIRC.
Probably a different gearbox but it's still enough to worry me. They are so beautiful and so cheap, but have the potential to ruin you, sideways, in the shower.
7 grand?? Why wouldn't you just throw it away (the car) and start again???Probably a different gearbox but it's still enough to worry me. They are so beautiful and so cheap, but have the potential to ruin you, sideways, in the shower.
ajb85 said:
The XK8 prospect frightens me and appeals in equal measures. The attraction is that they look a hell of a lot more of a car than the CLK430 I'm also looking at - the Merc seems safe and sober in comparison. Save for the occasional rust, my experiences with old Mercs have always been good, and Merc's V8s are a corker.
do what I done and try/buy a CLK55 AMG if the Jag worries you that much I'm with you: I'm shopping them now and wondering whether the R is worth the extra money or not. They look fabulous, and the later facelift jobs with the 4.2 are under £10K now as well.
The gearbox story is scary, but I suspect that may have been a while ago. The jaguar xj8 transmission is a ZF 5hp24, not an uncommon box, and rebuild kits go for about £350, whole used boxes for about £1100 from what I can tell. The main causes of failure are the A- and/or B Clutch drums failing due to wear. This page says they all do it sooner or later, and it seems right around 100k-110k miles.
http://fixeuro.com/Transmissions/Jaguar/ZF_5HP24/z...
Give the failures as noted, i suppose I am looking for one with lots of miles under the failure point, or a car at the price point where an immediate prophylactic rebuild is wise money.
They are soooooo good lookin'
The gearbox story is scary, but I suspect that may have been a while ago. The jaguar xj8 transmission is a ZF 5hp24, not an uncommon box, and rebuild kits go for about £350, whole used boxes for about £1100 from what I can tell. The main causes of failure are the A- and/or B Clutch drums failing due to wear. This page says they all do it sooner or later, and it seems right around 100k-110k miles.
http://fixeuro.com/Transmissions/Jaguar/ZF_5HP24/z...
Give the failures as noted, i suppose I am looking for one with lots of miles under the failure point, or a car at the price point where an immediate prophylactic rebuild is wise money.
They are soooooo good lookin'
MGZRod said:
Well, theres a memeber in the scotland section had his XKR gearbox rebuilt for around £7k IIRC.
Sorry but citing that as useful info is simple madness. I could spank £10k on a night out if I thought about it, but that's hardly proof that every time you go out it'll cost you that amount.Spending £7k on a gearbox must have been the most expensive option possible. And I suspect not a very sensible one unless you have far too much money and no idea what to do with it.
MGZRod said:
Probably a different gearbox but it's still enough to worry me. They are so beautiful and so cheap, but have the potential to ruin you, sideways, in the shower.
I'm sorry but I think that is a misleading and wrong statement. The XK8 is not fundamentally any different to the XJ8 and plenty of people run these no problem on much smaller budgets on cars costing only a fraction of what an XK8 will set you back.Gearboxes "sealed for life" need an oil and filter. If it was driving ok before you do this, then chances are it'll be fine. Rebuilds or 2nd hand replacements should the need arise are not too outrageous if you price them correctly. Also remember Jaguar don't build the gearboxes, they are a ZF unit (if memory serves) and are used in Mercs and BMWs too.
Timing chain tensioner issue. Not major to sort but worth knowing about before you buy, so research it fully.
Nikasil. This was an issue a good number of years ago (over 10 years now). Some engines suffered failure due to the bores wearing due to the sulphur content of the fuel at the time. This affected BMW, Porsche and others as much as Jag. The high sulphur fuel isn't about today, so chances are any that survived are fine and any that didn't were replaced by the factory long ago.
CATS suspension can be pricey. But no more so than similar systems from other makers. Early XK8's won't have this most likely.
20" SVO wheels evidently need pricey 20" tyres. Although they are cheaper today than in years past. Early XK's had 17" rims as standard with option 18"rims. So tyres are not pricey for them these days.
Shocks, springs, discs, pads, rad, alternator and so on are all reasonably priced and wont really be setting you back any more than the same items would for a 3 Series or a Mondeo.
Apart from that they are fairly reliable cars that are no worse to work on than anything from the same era.
If you really think an XK8 is ruinous to run, then running any car is really a no go area for you.
The biggest cost will likely be fuel, 18-22mpg is what I'd budget.
Edited by 300bhp/ton on Thursday 17th January 14:19
Edited by 300bhp/ton on Thursday 17th January 14:42
ikarl said:
ajb85 said:
The XK8 prospect frightens me and appeals in equal measures. The attraction is that they look a hell of a lot more of a car than the CLK430 I'm also looking at - the Merc seems safe and sober in comparison. Save for the occasional rust, my experiences with old Mercs have always been good, and Merc's V8s are a corker.
do what I done and try/buy a CLK55 AMG if the Jag worries you that much Mechanically identical to the XJ8 cars of similar age.
Pre 2000 cars suffered from occasional throttlebody failures, which should have all been fixed under recall and Nicasil bore lining errosion, mainly due to high Sulphur content fuel combined with short trips. High Sulphur fuel was phased out in January 2000 and not all earlier cars would have been exposed to it anyway. Engines revised for 2000MY with different throttlebody, secondary timing chain tensioners (mk2 type) and steel liners amongst other details
All 1997 - 2003 cars have either mk 1 or 2 plastic bodied secondary timing chain tensioners which can fail. It's recommended to change the tensioners to the later metal bodied version fitted to the 4.2 V8. Timing chains and associated components can wear but usually only on high mileage or neglected examples - not to be confused with need to change to metal bodied secondary tensioners which should be done asap. Some will already have been done - easy enough to check, just remove OS cam cover and look to see if secondary tensioner has a plastic or metal body.
All XJ/K s have sealed for life gearboxes, the n/a cars have a ZF 5 speed and the supercharged ones a stronger Mercedes 5 speed one. Jaguar specified oil changes are not required which has led to the demise of several from 70 -80k upwards due to lubrication failure. Oil is a bit tricky to change but it can and should be at 50k and then 25k intervals. If done the gearbox should be fine for way past 100k.
Some XKs suffer floorpan corrosion under the seats and around the transmission tunnel - difficult to spot without ripping the interior to bits.
Orthewise a hard driven XK will chew up brakes, tyres and suspension components. Mostly parts reasonablty priced and not to hard to DIY brakes, shocks and ball joints. Electrics and toys generally reliable. Some aspects of interiors a bit fragile - look for excessive seat wear.
Look for smooth and instant take up of drive and seamless gearchanges, anything else indicates a dying gearbox, mk 1 timing chain tensioners can rattle on cold start up if failing, mk 2 don't as a rule. Car should track straight and true under heavy braking/acceleration and listen and feel for any clonking from suspension. Tyres should be evenly worn, abnormal wear paterns indicate suspension wear. Some diff whine may be expected at high miles - diff is also sealed for life so no oil changes specified, again can be DIY'd. Noisy diffs respond well to EP140 instead of EP 90 oil. Look for panel damage and stone chips on the front and if convertable make sure the hood mechanism works properly - actuating fluid goes sticky and needs flushing and change if hood jams or sticks. Avoid any car with evidence of overheating or low coolant levels
General advice is to spend as much as you can to get a very good one and look after it, rather than a cheap one and throw all the money you saved on purchase fixing it. Try Jaguar World and Jaguar Enthusiasts' Club classifieds or carsandclassic to find a good well maintained one.
Pre 2000 cars suffered from occasional throttlebody failures, which should have all been fixed under recall and Nicasil bore lining errosion, mainly due to high Sulphur content fuel combined with short trips. High Sulphur fuel was phased out in January 2000 and not all earlier cars would have been exposed to it anyway. Engines revised for 2000MY with different throttlebody, secondary timing chain tensioners (mk2 type) and steel liners amongst other details
All 1997 - 2003 cars have either mk 1 or 2 plastic bodied secondary timing chain tensioners which can fail. It's recommended to change the tensioners to the later metal bodied version fitted to the 4.2 V8. Timing chains and associated components can wear but usually only on high mileage or neglected examples - not to be confused with need to change to metal bodied secondary tensioners which should be done asap. Some will already have been done - easy enough to check, just remove OS cam cover and look to see if secondary tensioner has a plastic or metal body.
All XJ/K s have sealed for life gearboxes, the n/a cars have a ZF 5 speed and the supercharged ones a stronger Mercedes 5 speed one. Jaguar specified oil changes are not required which has led to the demise of several from 70 -80k upwards due to lubrication failure. Oil is a bit tricky to change but it can and should be at 50k and then 25k intervals. If done the gearbox should be fine for way past 100k.
Some XKs suffer floorpan corrosion under the seats and around the transmission tunnel - difficult to spot without ripping the interior to bits.
Orthewise a hard driven XK will chew up brakes, tyres and suspension components. Mostly parts reasonablty priced and not to hard to DIY brakes, shocks and ball joints. Electrics and toys generally reliable. Some aspects of interiors a bit fragile - look for excessive seat wear.
Look for smooth and instant take up of drive and seamless gearchanges, anything else indicates a dying gearbox, mk 1 timing chain tensioners can rattle on cold start up if failing, mk 2 don't as a rule. Car should track straight and true under heavy braking/acceleration and listen and feel for any clonking from suspension. Tyres should be evenly worn, abnormal wear paterns indicate suspension wear. Some diff whine may be expected at high miles - diff is also sealed for life so no oil changes specified, again can be DIY'd. Noisy diffs respond well to EP140 instead of EP 90 oil. Look for panel damage and stone chips on the front and if convertable make sure the hood mechanism works properly - actuating fluid goes sticky and needs flushing and change if hood jams or sticks. Avoid any car with evidence of overheating or low coolant levels
General advice is to spend as much as you can to get a very good one and look after it, rather than a cheap one and throw all the money you saved on purchase fixing it. Try Jaguar World and Jaguar Enthusiasts' Club classifieds or carsandclassic to find a good well maintained one.
I had a 1998 XJR, effectively the same mechanicals.
Things to be aware of:
Timings chains don't break, they slip. If they slip two teeth on the cogs it means smashed valves and pistons. The tensioners are responsible for this as the early ones were made from brittle plastic. The later ones (3 or 4 differing versions) were made of metal and were fine. Buy a car that's had the tensioners done or budget about £800 to have it and a service done. I did this to mine.
Nikasil, should now be a non-problem. Cars that were knackered will have had a new engine, cars that were'nt knackered will probably last longer as petrol does not contain the same amount of sulphuer for the last 10 years.
Gearbox - I replaced mine at 110K miles, it self destructed. These are 'sealed for life' units meaning sealed fo the life of the first owner. Get the fluid renewed at 60K miles and they will be fine. My gearbox cost me about £1500 fitted for a second hand one.
Floorpans (XKR only) - apparently the early XKRs have some kind of foam padding behind the heat shields underneath that can act as a sponge. This can cause corrosion in the floorpan either side of the gearbox.
And that is about the list of things to worry about with an early XKR/XJRs. Well, other than all the usual suspension bushes etc... , but they ALL do that!
Things to be aware of:
Timings chains don't break, they slip. If they slip two teeth on the cogs it means smashed valves and pistons. The tensioners are responsible for this as the early ones were made from brittle plastic. The later ones (3 or 4 differing versions) were made of metal and were fine. Buy a car that's had the tensioners done or budget about £800 to have it and a service done. I did this to mine.
Nikasil, should now be a non-problem. Cars that were knackered will have had a new engine, cars that were'nt knackered will probably last longer as petrol does not contain the same amount of sulphuer for the last 10 years.
Gearbox - I replaced mine at 110K miles, it self destructed. These are 'sealed for life' units meaning sealed fo the life of the first owner. Get the fluid renewed at 60K miles and they will be fine. My gearbox cost me about £1500 fitted for a second hand one.
Floorpans (XKR only) - apparently the early XKRs have some kind of foam padding behind the heat shields underneath that can act as a sponge. This can cause corrosion in the floorpan either side of the gearbox.
And that is about the list of things to worry about with an early XKR/XJRs. Well, other than all the usual suspension bushes etc... , but they ALL do that!
A later 4.2 XK8 is a good buy if you can run to it. I'd go for one of them over an earlier 4.0 XKR. If you can find yourself a good independent Jag specialist you'll be laughing.
I did consider them myself but ultimately went for an facelift manual XJS. IMHO the XJS had more driver involvement (especially with a manual box), and according to my own Jag specialist, is generally simpler to fix and more robust.
I did consider them myself but ultimately went for an facelift manual XJS. IMHO the XJS had more driver involvement (especially with a manual box), and according to my own Jag specialist, is generally simpler to fix and more robust.
300bhp/ton said:
Oh yeah op, if you need a reminder on why to buy one...
take a look
It's flipping gorgeous!!!! Supercar looks and grace for Mondeo money. And unless I'm mistaken if you look up the word Jaguar in a dictionary it'll say "see Jaguar".
Stunning, although Carnival red (think it is) is the one colour I wouldn't have, don't think it does the job very well with the sexy shape. Sounds as if the gearbox is the only real horror story, perishables don't sound like the end of the world. I'd have an early car with the 17" wheels so tyre replacements wouldn't be too offensive. I think I'll keep an eye on the private ads, I have in mind the type of person I want to buy a car like this from and, for my own peace of mind, it wouldn't be a dealer.take a look
It's flipping gorgeous!!!! Supercar looks and grace for Mondeo money. And unless I'm mistaken if you look up the word Jaguar in a dictionary it'll say "see Jaguar".
There's an XK8 buyers guide in this month's Practical Classics magazine.
I fancied one of these as a second car, and got as far as looking at a few £5-7k cars, but in the end I chickened out, preferring to wait a few years until I've moved out of London to somewhere with more garage space.
Rust is definitely something to watch out for. Quite common on the wheelarches and rear bumper mounts. I think if I do ever buy an XK8, I would want to run it as a summer car, and keep it tucked up in a garage in winter to avoid cold starts and wet salty roads.
I fancied one of these as a second car, and got as far as looking at a few £5-7k cars, but in the end I chickened out, preferring to wait a few years until I've moved out of London to somewhere with more garage space.
Rust is definitely something to watch out for. Quite common on the wheelarches and rear bumper mounts. I think if I do ever buy an XK8, I would want to run it as a summer car, and keep it tucked up in a garage in winter to avoid cold starts and wet salty roads.
bobfrance said:
If you can find yourself a good independent Jag specialist you'll be laughing.
Any recommendations? A bit of googling found these guys in Bucks - I don't know if they're any good or not. http://www.thomasbarclay.co.ukEdited by excel monkey on Thursday 17th January 15:06
I've seen a few also with rotten sills and rear arches. No idea what year they were - early ones I suspect so they're getting on a bit.
Regarding the gearbox. These use the ZF 5HP24 which isn't particularly strong due to some cost cutting. The 5HP24 replaced the bigger and stronger 5HP30 in the mid 1990's and it fails in V8 BMW's as well. Nothing to do with oil - generally it's the pressed steel and cast monkey metal brake drums that split open causing loss of drive. The 5HP30 had forged steel drums so the box just wore out rather than going pop.
Having said that, there are plenty of V8 Jaguars and BMW's with 200'000 on the original box and oil so it's not really an oil or lubrication issue ubnless it's been run low. New oil and a filter might do some good, but just keeping the oil level correct is a good start.
Regarding the gearbox. These use the ZF 5HP24 which isn't particularly strong due to some cost cutting. The 5HP24 replaced the bigger and stronger 5HP30 in the mid 1990's and it fails in V8 BMW's as well. Nothing to do with oil - generally it's the pressed steel and cast monkey metal brake drums that split open causing loss of drive. The 5HP30 had forged steel drums so the box just wore out rather than going pop.
Having said that, there are plenty of V8 Jaguars and BMW's with 200'000 on the original box and oil so it's not really an oil or lubrication issue ubnless it's been run low. New oil and a filter might do some good, but just keeping the oil level correct is a good start.
300bhp/ton said:
I'm sorry but I think that is a misleading and wrong statement. The XK8 is not fundamentally any different to the XJ8 and plenty of people run these no problem on much smaller budgets on cars costing only a fraction of what an XK8 will set you back.
Gearboxes "sealed for life" need an oil and filter. If it was driving ok before you do this, then chances are it'll be fine. Rebuilds or 2nd hand replacements should the need arise are not too outrageous if you price them correctly. Also remember Jaguar don't build the gearboxes, they are a ZF unit (if memory serves) and are used in Mercs and BMWs too.
Timing chain tensioner issue. Not major to sort but worth knowing about before you buy, so research it fully.
Nikasil. This was an issue a good number of years ago (over 10 years now). Some engines suffered failure due to the bores wearing due to the sulphur content of the fuel at the time. This affected BMW, Porsche and others as much as Jag. The high sulphur fuel isn't about today, so chances are any that survived are fine and any that didn't were replaced by the factory long ago.
CATS suspension can be pricey. But no more so than similar systems from other makers. Early XK8's won't have this most likely.
20" SVO wheels evidently need pricey 20" tyres. Although they are cheaper today than in years past. Early XK's had 17" rims as standard with option 18"rims. So tyres are not pricey for them these days.
Shocks, springs, discs, pads, rad, alternator and so on are all reasonably priced and wont really be setting you back any more than the same items would for a 3 Series or a Mondeo.
Apart from that they are fairly reliable cars that are no worse to work on than anything from the same era.
If you really think an XK8 is ruinous to run, then running any car is really a no go area for you.
The biggest cost will likely be fuel, 18-22mpg is what I'd budget.
Christ, I knew it was you commenting before I read you're name.Gearboxes "sealed for life" need an oil and filter. If it was driving ok before you do this, then chances are it'll be fine. Rebuilds or 2nd hand replacements should the need arise are not too outrageous if you price them correctly. Also remember Jaguar don't build the gearboxes, they are a ZF unit (if memory serves) and are used in Mercs and BMWs too.
Timing chain tensioner issue. Not major to sort but worth knowing about before you buy, so research it fully.
Nikasil. This was an issue a good number of years ago (over 10 years now). Some engines suffered failure due to the bores wearing due to the sulphur content of the fuel at the time. This affected BMW, Porsche and others as much as Jag. The high sulphur fuel isn't about today, so chances are any that survived are fine and any that didn't were replaced by the factory long ago.
CATS suspension can be pricey. But no more so than similar systems from other makers. Early XK8's won't have this most likely.
20" SVO wheels evidently need pricey 20" tyres. Although they are cheaper today than in years past. Early XK's had 17" rims as standard with option 18"rims. So tyres are not pricey for them these days.
Shocks, springs, discs, pads, rad, alternator and so on are all reasonably priced and wont really be setting you back any more than the same items would for a 3 Series or a Mondeo.
Apart from that they are fairly reliable cars that are no worse to work on than anything from the same era.
If you really think an XK8 is ruinous to run, then running any car is really a no go area for you.
The biggest cost will likely be fuel, 18-22mpg is what I'd budget.
Edited by 300bhp/ton on Thursday 17th January 14:19
Edited by 300bhp/ton on Thursday 17th January 14:42
I didn't state that my post was guaranteed fact. I had something to say from what i've been told before, every time someone said something that isn't 100% you go reply in a very aggresive manor.
MGZRod said:
Christ, I knew it was you commenting before I read you're name.
I didn't state that my post was guaranteed fact. I had something to say from what i've been told before, every time someone said something that isn't 100% you go reply in a very aggresive manor.
Me not agreeing with you isn't being aggressive.I didn't state that my post was guaranteed fact. I had something to say from what i've been told before, every time someone said something that isn't 100% you go reply in a very aggresive manor.
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