RE: Megane 265 Cup and Subaru BRZ: Fast vs Fun

RE: Megane 265 Cup and Subaru BRZ: Fast vs Fun

Friday 22nd March 2013

Megane 265 Cup and Subaru BRZ: Fast vs Fun

What's best for your £25,000 - a car which amuses, or a car which amazes?



So you're in the fortunate position to lavish £25,000 on a new car. It has to be a bit special, too; not just your usual high-spec diesel. Something to get the pulse racing, in other words. Something worthy of a PHer.

Two different ways of spending the same cash
Two different ways of spending the same cash
Question is, do you pick a car that's fast, or one that's fun? Or to be more precise, because fast by definition means fun, which type of fun to choose? Edge of your seat thrills from a car that's poised and precise? Or a laugh riot kind of car that's only too keen to let its hair down?

We've chosen to represent the latter here with the Subaru BRZ, a giggle of a car if ever there was one. And to represent the former, our trusty Megane 265 Cup long termer - about as sharp as a hot hatch gets. But standing twixt Subaru and Renault dealerships, with a hypothetical £25,000 burning a hole in your pocket, which way would you turn?

Plastic fantastic
Jumping into the BRZ first you need to look past a slightly confused mass of curves and angles, not to mention plastics that'd feel more at home in a Hyundai Accent circa 1997. But it all feels solid. And the driving position is inherently sporty, placing your backside low down and your legs stretched out.

Plasticky, sure, but definitely sporty
Plasticky, sure, but definitely sporty
There's a gratifying little snarl to the engine, aided by the pipe that feeds sound into the cabin from the intake manifold. OK, so it's not entirely natural, but crucially, the noise doesn't come at you from the stereo speakers. The gearchange is a highlight, too; it feels as though excessive damping has deliberately been avoided, and the result is a shift that feels direct and mechanical, clunking satisfyingly into each ratio. The elephant in the room, of course, is power. Does the BRZ lack it? No. Could it take more? Almost certainly. But it does feel as though there's - just - enough, and that works better than you might think because it spurs you on to rev it more, to drive it harder.

Off the line
That said, it goes without saying that it simply doesn't stand a chance against the Megane in a drag race. The Renault's engine is a corker. Power comes brutally and near-instantly, in any gear, accompanied by an ethereal whoosh from the turbo. Occasionally, if you're lucky, it'll even reward you with a subtle pop as you lift off for a gearchange. Fast? Oh yeah, it's that - and devastatingly so.

Hatchback roots can't be eradicated
Hatchback roots can't be eradicated
But while the Megane thrashes the BRZ in raw performance terms, in other areas it's less convincing. Take the interior, for example. It's here the Megane really shows it's been adapted for purpose from a hatchback, unlike the BRZ. True, there's the joyous geekery of the Renaultsport Monitor to play with. But on the whole, it doesn't quite have the fundamental rightness of the Subaru. It's partly the fault of the driving position, which even after aeons of fumbling, still leaves you feeling too far from the wheel or too close to the pedals, and never quite gets you low enough in the car. What's more, straight after the meatier controls of the BRZ, the Megane's steering and pedals feel comparatively light and spongy; its gearchange, too, feels rangier and less taut. In short, it just doesn't feel quite as special or as well-sorted.

That changes once you hit some corners, though. It's not that the BRZ doesn't feel well set up; it's just clearly not been designed with ultimate pace in mind. It's still quick in the dry, though, with a chunky, stable feeling that inspires confidence, and plenty of grip to boot. It's still a stretch away from being able to keep up, though, as it simply doesn't have the power to drive it out of corners in quite the same way.

On a day like this the Megane is more effective
On a day like this the Megane is more effective
Playing for laughs
In the wet, however, there's no comparison. The Megane blats off down the road, immersing you in the experience, ducking and diving into the next corner and strong-arming its way out with such consummate ease that a stolen glance at the speedo results in widened eyes. Meanwhile, the BRZ's still somewhere two corners back, slithering around and trying to go sideways instead of forwards. "Nope, that ain't happening," it says, as you feed in the throttle. "But look - I can do big skids instead!" It isn't as quick as the Megane, then - but it doesn't half make you grin.

So which is the victor here? Fast, or fun? Well, let's face it: the conclusion to this test was never going to be 100 per cent definitive because it depends on so many subjective variables. If you want nerve-tingling power, astonishing grip, and an all-out adrenaline rush - not to mention, bragging rights - you'll buy the Renault and live with its deficiencies.

Two worthy PH choices - final choice is tricky
Two worthy PH choices - final choice is tricky
If you want slithery fun, easily-accessible thrills, and a car that makes you feel you're in something special every minute you're driving it, you'll ignore the lack of power and buy the BRZ. In other words, you'll pick your favourite. And because it doesn't take itself too seriously, because it feels more special for more of the time, and because it makes you laugh more readily than the Renault makes you gasp, on this occasion fun wins.

 



SUBARU BRZ 2.0I SE
Engine:
1,998cc flat-4, direct injection
Transmission: 6-speed manual
Power (hp): 200@7,000rpm
Torque (lb ft): 151@6,400rpm
0-62mph: 7.6 sec
Top speed: 140mph
Weight: 1,230kg
MPG: 36.2mpg (combined)
CO2: 181g/km
Price: £24,995 (OTR, before options)

RENAULT MEGANE RENAULTSPORT 265 CUP
Engine:
1,998cc 4-cyl, turbocharged
Transmission: 6-speed manual, front-wheel drive
Power (hp): 265@5,500rpm
Torque (lb ft): 265@3,000-5,000rpm
0-62mph: 6.0 sec
Top speed: 158mph
Weight: 1,379kg
MPG: 37.7mpg (combined)
CO2: 174g/km
Price: £25,245 (OTR, before options)

Photos: Prime Exposures










Author
Discussion

dublet

Original Poster:

283 posts

211 months

Friday 22nd March 2013
quotequote all
A Subaru with RenaultSport seats? Interesting!

toppstuff

13,698 posts

247 months

Friday 22nd March 2013
quotequote all
Subaru / Toyota is the easy choice here.

No way on this earth I would consider the Renault, even though I rather like its shape.


Hoygo

725 posts

161 months

Friday 22nd March 2013
quotequote all
Megane everytime,no way id spend 25K for a Subaru brz/Toyota gt86.

s m

23,219 posts

203 months

Friday 22nd March 2013
quotequote all
This seems to be a variation on this week's Autocar article with the new Clio 200 and GT86

kambites

67,543 posts

221 months

Friday 22nd March 2013
quotequote all
If the choice was between these two, I wouldn't even bother to drive the Renault unless it was the only way to get to the Subaru dealer.

300bhp/ton

41,030 posts

190 months

Friday 22nd March 2013
quotequote all
Well one looks good and the other looks like a hatchback to me... hehe

TheRoadWarrior

1,241 posts

178 months

Friday 22nd March 2013
quotequote all
This article describes exactly what I found so dissapointing about the BRZ(I drove the toyota but I believe theres little difference)

It's a car specifically designed as a coupe; it should be sharp, thrilling, competent and yet it's comprehensively shown up by a vehicle adapted from a boggo hatchback.

The megane does everything the GT86/BRZ does but it's more envolving, faster in a straight line and crucially across a difficult road as well as being engaging to drive at less than 8/10's yet it still has all the practicality of a hatchback; 4 seats and a massive boot space compared to the toybaru.

Personally I think the piece plays down the difference in pace; the meg is a full-on rocket ship in comparison to the BRZ which never feels like it has enough mid-range, yes I know it's not turbo'd but compared to the Clio200 with the same headline power figure it feels about 30bhp down.

I'm not knocking the toybaru because I think any company that attempts a car like that in today's climate should be appluaded, however I think they're wide of the mark in every important attribute.

Let's hope they benchmark the 265 and offer a revised car next year that can compete; because I still REALLY want to like this car!

Technomatt

1,085 posts

133 months

Friday 22nd March 2013
quotequote all
s m said:
This seems to be a variation on this week's Autocar article with the new Clio 200 and GT86
The one the Clio lost?

At least the Megane is a better price comparison.

toppstuff

13,698 posts

247 months

Friday 22nd March 2013
quotequote all
There really is more to driving than just sheer power.

A lot of people don't "get" the Toyobaru because it does'nt have the same power or performance as the hatch. It really does'nt matter.

Giving a car a good pasting and using more of its performance can be a lot more entertaining than having a more powerful car and not being able to use it. A lot more entertaining.

Add RWD and a certain sloppy slideyness and I think people would be really, really missing out if they chose the Renault over the Toyobaru.

A quick test drive is not going to be fair. The more urgent and rapid Renault will always impress. But the Toyobaru deserves to be given some time to get to know it.

I think there is no contest, personally.

I guess this could turn into another RWD vs FWD debate !

kambites

67,543 posts

221 months

Friday 22nd March 2013
quotequote all
yes For me performance (be it in a straight line or 'round corners) is a means to an end, not an end in itself.

I think the title of the article sums the whole thing up really - the Renault for people who primarily want a fast car, the BRZ for those who primarily want a fun one.

300bhp/ton

41,030 posts

190 months

Friday 22nd March 2013
quotequote all
TheRoadWarrior said:
This article describes exactly what I found so dissapointing about the BRZ(I drove the toyota but I believe theres little difference)

It's a car specifically designed as a coupe; it should be sharp, thrilling, competent and yet it's comprehensively shown up by a vehicle adapted from a boggo hatchback.

The megane does everything the GT86/BRZ does but it's more envolving, faster in a straight line and crucially across a difficult road as well as being engaging to drive at less than 8/10's yet it still has all the practicality of a hatchback; 4 seats and a massive boot space compared to the toybaru.

Personally I think the piece plays down the difference in pace; the meg is a full-on rocket ship in comparison to the BRZ which never feels like it has enough mid-range, yes I know it's not turbo'd but compared to the Clio200 with the same headline power figure it feels about 30bhp down.

I'm not knocking the toybaru because I think any company that attempts a car like that in today's climate should be appluaded, however I think they're wide of the mark in every important attribute.

Let's hope they benchmark the 265 and offer a revised car next year that can compete; because I still REALLY want to like this car!
All your comments could be levied at a Caterham clubsport instead of the BRZ if we're honest. It just sounds like you want to prefer a hatchback.

As for the mid range punch and torque, the BRZ makes as much or more than any other n/a engine that's been available ever pretty much. (I admit the stock map looks like it has a massive dip around 3000rpm, sure the aftermarket can solve this though).

I just don't get this obsession with comparing to different technologies that are answering different questions. Mid range punch is a turbo speciality, n/a of relatively small displacement will never do this. But then most turbo motors won't rev or feel like an n/a lump does.

Schnellmann

1,893 posts

204 months

Friday 22nd March 2013
quotequote all
TheRoadWarrior said:
This article describes exactly what I found so dissapointing about the BRZ(I drove the toyota but I believe theres little difference)

It's a car specifically designed as a coupe; it should be sharp, thrilling, competent and yet it's comprehensively shown up by a vehicle adapted from a boggo hatchback.

The megane does everything the GT86/BRZ does but it's more envolving, faster in a straight line and crucially across a difficult road as well as being engaging to drive at less than 8/10's yet it still has all the practicality of a hatchback; 4 seats and a massive boot space compared to the toybaru.

Personally I think the piece plays down the difference in pace; the meg is a full-on rocket ship in comparison to the BRZ which never feels like it has enough mid-range, yes I know it's not turbo'd but compared to the Clio200 with the same headline power figure it feels about 30bhp down.

I'm not knocking the toybaru because I think any company that attempts a car like that in today's climate should be appluaded, however I think they're wide of the mark in every important attribute.

Let's hope they benchmark the 265 and offer a revised car next year that can compete; because I still REALLY want to like this car!
I think the problem with the above is that Toyota/Subaru could make their car much faster and make the handling sharper, but in doing so they would change the character of the car completely. And for the worse in my opinion. The Toyota/Subaru is fun because it is less capable and has less grip. If you stuffed in a more powerful, turbo-charged engine with loads of torque then they would have to make the tyres much wider, firm up the suspension and generally make the car faster...but less able to be slid around at lower speeds.

I drove the GT-86 a week or so ago and was impressed by the handling. At lower speeds you could feel the car react: lifting off the throttle got it to move. I found a roundabout and was amazed at how easy it was to push the back out - it seemed pretty benign in how it happened too.

The car does have it faults. The engine noise isn't very nice (for me), although maybe an aftermarket exhaust might help. And yes it is a bit plasticky. But I think it looks nice and I expect it would be bullet-proof (my old Impreza was).

LaurasOtherHalf

21,429 posts

196 months

GravelBen

15,680 posts

230 months

Friday 22nd March 2013
quotequote all
kambites said:
If the choice was between these two, I wouldn't even bother to drive the Renault unless it was the only way to get to the Subaru dealer.
+1

Though it would also be interesting to find out how much of the Megane's advantage in corner speed is simple down to tyres. 235/40R18 Michelin PS2 vs 215/45R17 Michelin Primacy is quite a difference.

300bhp/ton

41,030 posts

190 months

Friday 22nd March 2013
quotequote all
doogz said:
Any other n/a engine pretty much ever?

The BMW 2.0 4 pot in the last 3 series, and the Honda F20 spring to mind as producing more, off the top of my head.
Hence "pretty much" and not conclusively or entirely wink


GT86/BRZ 151ft-lb

2001 Honda CTR 145ft-lb

e92 BMW 320i 155ft-lb


Can't see that there's any real difference in torque output from these, not enough to truly make a difference from behind the drivers seat.


Dyno plots show that the BRZ makes near it's PEAK torque from 2500rpm. As said earlier though, the stock tune does appear to drop some torque from 3500 - 4700rpm for some reason. I would guess might be for emissions reasons. But overall the BRZ/GT86 make comparable torque and power all the way through the rev range compared to almost any other 2.0 n/a petrol engine - ever.

roystinho

3,767 posts

175 months

Friday 22nd March 2013
quotequote all
Technomatt said:
s m said:
This seems to be a variation on this week's Autocar article with the new Clio 200 and GT86
The one the Clio lost?

At least the Megane is a better price comparison.
Lost? They said the Clio was quicker everywhere.

You mean where someone's opinion said the Toyota was more fun. Everyone can have an opinion, but this one can't be qualified as right or wrong

Back on topic, Megane everyday to me. I've driven a GT86 and though found it fun, prefer the megane. The Renault is possibly a rarer sight to the toyobaru too, certainly where I live

otolith

56,026 posts

204 months

Friday 22nd March 2013
quotequote all
No interest in the Renault at all, don't care how fast it is.

GravelBen

15,680 posts

230 months

Friday 22nd March 2013
quotequote all
300bhp/ton said:
GT86/BRZ 151ft-lb

2001 Honda CTR 145ft-lb

e92 BMW 320i 155ft-lb
You can't go using FACTS now 300, this is Pistonheads! hehe

SturdyHSV

10,094 posts

167 months

Friday 22nd March 2013
quotequote all
I'd be in the Subaru if I had to chose between those two. Every time.

Dblue

3,252 posts

200 months

Friday 22nd March 2013
quotequote all
GravelBen said:
kambites said:
If the choice was between these two, I wouldn't even bother to drive the Renault unless it was the only way to get to the Subaru dealer.
+1

Though it would also be interesting to find out how much of the Megane's advantage in corner speed is simple down to tyres. 235/40R18 Michelin PS2 vs 215/45R17 Michelin Primacy is quite a difference.
We've done this to death surely.

But to cover old ground the Renault doesn't just outgrip the Toyabaru and who cares so much if it does, it outgrips everything in its class, very much including the 135i (Ref the EVO group test last month) but it has fantastic damping control, direct steering and a spookily good front LSD that lets it put its substantial (Though not class leading power down)
It also has quite a playful rear end though its FWD so that's never going to be as much fun in terms of throttle oversteer.

I reckon its a perfect balance of practicality/fun as a daily myself and gets a surprising amount of positive reaction on the road (Well my Trophy does but maybe thats because it's in Renaultsport Liquid Yellow )