1.6 Hdi as used in Pug's Fords, Mazda and Volvo.
Discussion
I've been having a good think about these engines recently - I have one coming to me next week with a leaking injector (No3 & 4). It's been fully serviced, and comes to me about every 10k and 6 months for a decent oil and filter change. It's got just shy of 100k miles on it at the mo, so that seems quite high for these engines. I understand the failure rate for the turbo seems high, and in fact, I haven't seen or heard of any mega mileage units.
Anyway I was having a think about the failure mode, and here's my considered view for opinion and ridicule.
1) Injector seals fail due to low clamping force on the bolts.
2) Compression is lowered due to the leak, and as power is down on the suspect cylinder, and ECU compensates with more fuel.
3) The increased fuel and injector leak creates the black death carbon, which is introduced into the oil through both the valve train and the combustion process.
4) The carbon blocks the oil ways, especially to the turbo (inc the turbo filter), causing turbo failure. This is made worse by the stupidly (in my opinion) long oil changes intervals.
Solution.
1) Stop the injector leaks. (going to check my customers every service)
2) More frequent oil changes.
Does this seem reasonable? - Is there anyone out there with one of these engines with over 200k miles on - if so what did you do to get it there?
Finally, is there a direction to fit the new copper seals - I understand they are domed - do you fit them dome up or dome down.
Such a shame, I've been a real fan of pug diesels:- my own 2.0 Hdi XUD derivative is still very sweet after 250k, with very little work except for routine maintenance
Anyway I was having a think about the failure mode, and here's my considered view for opinion and ridicule.
1) Injector seals fail due to low clamping force on the bolts.
2) Compression is lowered due to the leak, and as power is down on the suspect cylinder, and ECU compensates with more fuel.
3) The increased fuel and injector leak creates the black death carbon, which is introduced into the oil through both the valve train and the combustion process.
4) The carbon blocks the oil ways, especially to the turbo (inc the turbo filter), causing turbo failure. This is made worse by the stupidly (in my opinion) long oil changes intervals.
Solution.
1) Stop the injector leaks. (going to check my customers every service)
2) More frequent oil changes.
Does this seem reasonable? - Is there anyone out there with one of these engines with over 200k miles on - if so what did you do to get it there?
Finally, is there a direction to fit the new copper seals - I understand they are domed - do you fit them dome up or dome down.
Such a shame, I've been a real fan of pug diesels:- my own 2.0 Hdi XUD derivative is still very sweet after 250k, with very little work except for routine maintenance
My daughter has this engine in a 307 and has 150k miles on it. Is that high enough to be of interest to you? She drives the sh!t out of it and I have to bully her to leave it to me for a service. I change the oil every 9 or 10k miles rather than the recommended 12500. This engine gives out the worst used oil I have ever seen coming out of an engine!
As for the chuffing injectors: I would not be sure of your chain of logic for several reasons, one being that I don't think the ECU compensates for different outputs from different cylinders. This fault is so common that the dealers could almost fix them with their eyes closed. I just get them fixed and there have been no ill effects yet.
As for the chuffing injectors: I would not be sure of your chain of logic for several reasons, one being that I don't think the ECU compensates for different outputs from different cylinders. This fault is so common that the dealers could almost fix them with their eyes closed. I just get them fixed and there have been no ill effects yet.
I think most turbo and engine faults are due to over long service intervals
and this is exasbated by injector faults and the that causes over fueling or poor combustion, EGR also pollutes the oil quickly Its amazing how long the oil stays clean if you blank it off!!! , Ive always changed my own oils at about half the recomended interval and always used a basic diesel oil NEVER had a turbo fail in the last 20 years on my own well used abused vehicles,
clean oil is the key especily as the mileage goes up and overlong drain periods or missed services cause a build up of contaninants which mix with the new oil so its dirty after about 1 hour if this has happened its a good idea to do a second change after about 100 miles...
and this is exasbated by injector faults and the that causes over fueling or poor combustion, EGR also pollutes the oil quickly Its amazing how long the oil stays clean if you blank it off!!! , Ive always changed my own oils at about half the recomended interval and always used a basic diesel oil NEVER had a turbo fail in the last 20 years on my own well used abused vehicles,
clean oil is the key especily as the mileage goes up and overlong drain periods or missed services cause a build up of contaninants which mix with the new oil so its dirty after about 1 hour if this has happened its a good idea to do a second change after about 100 miles...
In 2009 I bought a 2005 Focus with that 90bhp lump in it, on 77k miles. FSH from lease company. Drove a treat. Over the next 11months I stuck 48k miles on it, driven on all sorts of road. The chassis was superb, but 39mpg was my best fuel figure.
In the end leaking injector seals were pointed out as an issue on it, and when we were fixing a leaky intercooler pipe discovered that the turbo was fairly knackered and would need replacing soon on account of excess play.
Must've been on 120K by then, so chose then to punt it on, got back at trade in what I paid for it.
Regards the engine, even remapped to 110-120bhp it always felt like it was at the maximum for what it could handle in the mk2 Focus estate.
Never worried about it failing, but it never produced the mythical figures that others claim to see, and it always had a leak here/there or needed some trivial part.
In the end leaking injector seals were pointed out as an issue on it, and when we were fixing a leaky intercooler pipe discovered that the turbo was fairly knackered and would need replacing soon on account of excess play.
Must've been on 120K by then, so chose then to punt it on, got back at trade in what I paid for it.
Regards the engine, even remapped to 110-120bhp it always felt like it was at the maximum for what it could handle in the mk2 Focus estate.
Never worried about it failing, but it never produced the mythical figures that others claim to see, and it always had a leak here/there or needed some trivial part.
Mmm interesting, thanks for the comments. I removed 2 of the injectors today, and the one was particularly bad. But before doing this, I checked the tension on the other injector bolts, and found that 4 of the 6 on the 'good' injectors were loose, barely more than finger tight. The 2 on the 'bad' injector seemed OK, but I suspect this is bacuase they were jammed up with crapbon rather than exerting high clamping force.
I agree with the comments about the oil, but it's awfully hard to get people to change their oil every 5k miles like I have always traditionally done (I wonder if that's why I have 5 cars with over 200k miles on them).
Like the commnent re the EGR valve - nice idea.
I agree with the comments about the oil, but it's awfully hard to get people to change their oil every 5k miles like I have always traditionally done (I wonder if that's why I have 5 cars with over 200k miles on them).
Like the commnent re the EGR valve - nice idea.
I have the 1.6 90hp in my 2005 Fiesta. Just ticked over 94000 miles the other day, but over the past 6 months it's started smoking on start up - white/blue smoke.
I also noticed after it'd been left idling for a while, when I pulled away it left a rather large trail of smoke behind it for half a mile. Not sure what causes all this, any thoughts? I did removed the breather pipe from the rocker cover down to the air intake to the turbo and it was all gunged up, but cleaning that hasn't changed the smoke issue.
My oil goes black really quickly so maybe the EGR is something I need to look at too.
I also noticed after it'd been left idling for a while, when I pulled away it left a rather large trail of smoke behind it for half a mile. Not sure what causes all this, any thoughts? I did removed the breather pipe from the rocker cover down to the air intake to the turbo and it was all gunged up, but cleaning that hasn't changed the smoke issue.
My oil goes black really quickly so maybe the EGR is something I need to look at too.
Hi, the Pug was blowing blue smoke on start up, and I strongly suspect that to be the leaking seals. I think it's unburnt fuel due to lower compression. Worth checking.
EGR is possible, but egr doesn't operate when it's cold.
Might be worth having a peak at the turbo shaft too since you mention black smoke - again it's quite easy to get to.
Best of luck.
EGR is possible, but egr doesn't operate when it's cold.
Might be worth having a peak at the turbo shaft too since you mention black smoke - again it's quite easy to get to.
Best of luck.
we get a little 1.4hdi 206 comes in every 10,000miles for a service and its done 240,000 last time i saw it. the egr has been blanked off on it and every 3rd service when it has the air and fuel etc done it gets an oil flush run through it which seems to help.
i see these cars day in day out (mechanic in a peugeot main stealers) and it seems that the ones that are always on the road and service regular and better than the low mileage ones that only get serviced at the 12,500 interval. we seem to have more timing chain failures on these than turbos to be honest
i see these cars day in day out (mechanic in a peugeot main stealers) and it seems that the ones that are always on the road and service regular and better than the low mileage ones that only get serviced at the 12,500 interval. we seem to have more timing chain failures on these than turbos to be honest
A fiesta Zetec I looked after went to 210,000 without any engine issue, did a boost pipe, the normal breather pipe that brakes on the cam cover & injector seals a couple of times.
Oil change every 10k & car used for long journeys seem to be the key on the ones I've seen with issues it's normally down to the oil pick up being blocked & I did remove the sump to check on the fiesta at @ 70k to check but found it to be all good.
These engines like all modern oil burners do not like low mileage use.
Oil change every 10k & car used for long journeys seem to be the key on the ones I've seen with issues it's normally down to the oil pick up being blocked & I did remove the sump to check on the fiesta at @ 70k to check but found it to be all good.
These engines like all modern oil burners do not like low mileage use.
bearman68 said:
I agree with the comments about the oil, but it's awfully hard to get people to change their oil every 5k miles like I have always traditionally done (I wonder if that's why I have 5 cars with over 200k miles on them).
Yes it is!! the car manufactures have spent a long time in the uk conditioning people to think that cars need a very expensive formal servive at a main dealer and they must have a stamp in the service book otherwise the sky will fall in!!!unlike most other countrys like the states for instance where people have an idea when to change oil etc so for instance they will just think oh car needs an oil change and a safety check so they just go to a lube bay, go grab a coffee or have brekfast come back job done and little reminder sticker on the door jamb,
powerstroke said:
Yes it is!! the car manufactures have spent a long time in the uk conditioning people to think that cars need a very expensive formal servive at a main dealer and they must have a stamp in the service book otherwise the sky will fall in!!!
Except the reality in many cases is that main dealer changes the oil if you're lucky, and charges for the rest.
Hi, I know this threads a little old but hopefully can give me some gen. I have a 307 110 1.6 HDi, My number 1 injector has creamed in, currently looks like the aftermath of Pompeii, It's also developed a depolution system fault! I took it to one garage and they said its unrelated, reset the fault code and booked me in some time in January to get the injector replaced at an expected cost of 115 quids. After driving around the depolution fault has returned sending it into limp mode. A second garage confirmed the injector is blowing but say the turbo and air filter need replacing in order to rectify the deplolution issue! After reading this thread I've deduced (with no technical knowledge) that the oil is dirty due to the injector fault and this has probably clogged the filter with carbon so rather than a new turbo and air filter I'd just need an oil change. Does this seem plausible or shall I just go blindly with what the garage says at a cost of around £800-900. Any helps appreciated.
You might need to give us a bit more info.
For instance "turbo not working" what does that mean?
Surely the turbo is a fan driven by exhaust gases, if you have exhaust gases & the turbo is not seized it will be turning. Is it turning?
If it is turning, the wastegate (if it has one) is not stuck open & the seals are not gone, it will be pressurising the inlet. Is it doing that?
I know that sounds pedantic/sarcastic, but "turbo not working" is not enough for anyone to help you here.
For instance "turbo not working" what does that mean?
Surely the turbo is a fan driven by exhaust gases, if you have exhaust gases & the turbo is not seized it will be turning. Is it turning?
If it is turning, the wastegate (if it has one) is not stuck open & the seals are not gone, it will be pressurising the inlet. Is it doing that?
I know that sounds pedantic/sarcastic, but "turbo not working" is not enough for anyone to help you here.
So I got my car back from the garage today. £150 for a replacement injector seal, oil change and oil filter. They didn't clear the fault code as they say that is related to the turbo needing to be replaced, without specifying which part, and the air intake? Not sure what that is. Anyway, I took it back to have the fault code cleared and get rid of the engine light, the mechanic said the engine light will definitely come back on as the turbo has not been changed. I blitzed the car for 15 miles from the garage to my house (revs not speed) and no engine light so far. Will post again soon, hopefully to say the depolution fault has not returned. Would still appreciate any help as my confidence in this car has gone scince reading about the 2007 307 HDi and I will be waiting for the next problem.
Weerab84 said:
I too need advice on this. Injector seals have been fixed and they have performed a regeneration but ford still don't know what's wrong. Turbo still not working. Already spent 600 Quid help!
I feel your pain garages/mechanics don't explain in depth enough, they check for understanding, under the pretence that you know what they're talkin about, which normal people don't.My Citroen berlingo 1.6 hdi has had 70000 miles of very hard city driving. Serviced every yr & never missed a beat apart from the injectors getting clogged up from cheap supermarket fuel & putting into limp mode. The first time it happened assumed it was a bad batch of fuel. Luckily for me I generally only use shell/ bp etc. forgot all about it until a yr later used supermarket fuel again & same thing happened (on motorway this time, not fun). Called rac who told me this was the most common fault on this particular engine & the amount of detergent in these cheap fuels causes the problem plus over excitable sensors. Apparently they get a ton of callouts for this exact problem. also met a couple of other people with same engine who've had same problem on the cheap fuels. I now only use decent fuel & car drives great. Engine in great condition with no leaks anywhere.
Hi all OP here.
Over 2 years on from the first post, and I continue to see these engines on a regular basis. In fact my little heart sinks a little when I do see them. The later engines (from about 2010) have had the injector seal design changed, so PSA / Ford clearly know there is a problem with them. However, the engine originaly on 100k, has now gone on to 145k, and continues to run well, but has just been sold due to accumulating maintenance issues (Cam belt required, brakes required, DPF needed etc).
However if the turbo has 'failed' throw the engine away, and don't repair it. No-one will warrant the new turbo, and most sources indicate it will fail in very short order. There is a small gauze on the inlet banjo to the turbo that can / should be removed, though this is not something I've done. You can check the turbo by removing the inlet pipe (easy to do), and wobbling the turbo shaft with your fingers. You should get a very very small amount of movement (prob less than 5/100 of a mm) but not much more than that. Easy check for a shagged turbo.
Limp mode can be caused by a load of things, and the fault code is critical. Most likely is errors in the EGR system due to blocking / carbon deposit. If this is the case, it will normally hunt and smoke a little if you hold it at about 2250 rpm, though this is not a definitive test. Turbo pressure sensor is another possibility, and that may be why your garage is suggesting a new turbo (but don't go down that road) Blocked DPF is another possibility, depending on the age and design of your engine. In my experience regen doesn't seem to work too well on these engines. Don't know why, maybe it's just my diagnostic kit ? Not sure.
If you can get the codes read, I'll offer some advice if you wish, but it's hard to do so without codes.
If you want the codes read, I'd be happy to do so for you, if you can get the car to me in SE Wales. I'm 20 odd mins North of the Severn Bridge near Usk.
By the way, if your having the injector seals replaced, make sure they are recut, and a new copper washer used. And if you want the little green seals on the leak off pipes, I have those to, rather than buying the whole shooting match from PSA at an arm and a leg.
and breeeeeath
Over 2 years on from the first post, and I continue to see these engines on a regular basis. In fact my little heart sinks a little when I do see them. The later engines (from about 2010) have had the injector seal design changed, so PSA / Ford clearly know there is a problem with them. However, the engine originaly on 100k, has now gone on to 145k, and continues to run well, but has just been sold due to accumulating maintenance issues (Cam belt required, brakes required, DPF needed etc).
However if the turbo has 'failed' throw the engine away, and don't repair it. No-one will warrant the new turbo, and most sources indicate it will fail in very short order. There is a small gauze on the inlet banjo to the turbo that can / should be removed, though this is not something I've done. You can check the turbo by removing the inlet pipe (easy to do), and wobbling the turbo shaft with your fingers. You should get a very very small amount of movement (prob less than 5/100 of a mm) but not much more than that. Easy check for a shagged turbo.
Limp mode can be caused by a load of things, and the fault code is critical. Most likely is errors in the EGR system due to blocking / carbon deposit. If this is the case, it will normally hunt and smoke a little if you hold it at about 2250 rpm, though this is not a definitive test. Turbo pressure sensor is another possibility, and that may be why your garage is suggesting a new turbo (but don't go down that road) Blocked DPF is another possibility, depending on the age and design of your engine. In my experience regen doesn't seem to work too well on these engines. Don't know why, maybe it's just my diagnostic kit ? Not sure.
If you can get the codes read, I'll offer some advice if you wish, but it's hard to do so without codes.
If you want the codes read, I'd be happy to do so for you, if you can get the car to me in SE Wales. I'm 20 odd mins North of the Severn Bridge near Usk.
By the way, if your having the injector seals replaced, make sure they are recut, and a new copper washer used. And if you want the little green seals on the leak off pipes, I have those to, rather than buying the whole shooting match from PSA at an arm and a leg.
and breeeeeath
If the inlet manifold wasn't checked/cleaned out when they did the injector that could well be an/the issue, the are pretty small and a little blockadge goes a long way.
Have a read here,,
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
I got my top seals and plastic support rings in with the cam chain kit, copper seals i got from a regualr parts shop and leak off seals from a Citroen dealership, i also had a pug 307 in at the weekend with blowing injectors (3rd dam 1.6 HDi in 3 weeks!!) and i had to get new top seal support rings, i got them at the same citroen dealership individualy. (desira southgate).
Dunno about you bearman but the first thing i do when i see one pull up is put the kettle on and sigh !
Have a read here,,
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
I got my top seals and plastic support rings in with the cam chain kit, copper seals i got from a regualr parts shop and leak off seals from a Citroen dealership, i also had a pug 307 in at the weekend with blowing injectors (3rd dam 1.6 HDi in 3 weeks!!) and i had to get new top seal support rings, i got them at the same citroen dealership individualy. (desira southgate).
Dunno about you bearman but the first thing i do when i see one pull up is put the kettle on and sigh !
Edited by S0 What on Wednesday 23 December 22:35
Mines a 2007 had it just over a year and done about 15000 miles, it was in good order when I got it from a main dealer. I've done about 30 miles in it since picking it up on Tuesday, so far so good, no depolution system fault. If just getting the injector repaired and an oil change has rectified the fault and it doesnt come back is there somewhere I should go to report the garage for trying to make me change the turbo (the entire part) and air flow meter at a cost of £800?
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