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Dblue

2,299 posts

86 months

[news] 
Sunday 12th May 2013 quote quote all
ADM06 said:
By the very same logic, poor diddums GTR driver is going to be upset by any number of tuned up bangers that cost a pittance.
Stupid argument.
What car are you thinking of exactly?
A 2008 GTR would cost you £30k (Holding their money like nothing else at the moment,would have cost only £53k new with all the toys included) and Litchfield will give you all the engine mods for about £6000.
And 630 hp for about £2000.

They are monsters and monstrously good value for money.


ADM06

1,005 posts

58 months

[news] 
Sunday 12th May 2013 quote quote all
Dblue said:
What car are you thinking of exactly?
A 2008 GTR would cost you £30k (Holding their money like nothing else at the moment,would have cost only £53k new with all the toys included) and Litchfield will give you all the engine mods for about £6000.
And 630 hp for about £2000.

They are monsters and monstrously good value for money.
I'm not saying they aren't but the argument that it costs less than some faster cars is just daft. There are many classic cars that cost a lot more than £30k but are slow as fk. Like I said there are a lot of much cheaper cars that can be spanked for a lot of power. The Japanese seemed quite prodigious at this in the 90s, and you have all manner of RX7s, Supras and Skylines which can be had cheaply and tuned cheaply. It's not just the Japanese though, I've seen mega power Cossies, BMWs, everything. Then there are motorbikes...

macky17

621 posts

75 months

[news] 
Sunday 12th May 2013 quote quote all
Godzilla said:
Yeah, uninvolving is exactly the impression I got from Chris' expression and stunned silence whilst trying to control the GT-R.

Of course, we all know they're Playstation cars, drive themselves etc, etc...

wink
Yawn, not this again. In case you missed it, he was on a track. I have no doubt the GTR is awe-inspiring in such a setting (not as fun or involving as an Ariel Atom or Radical, etc. but no doubt a level above the other two). Get it on the road however and unless you drive like an idiot, it's dull. I owned one for 5 months. I now have a Tuscan S - yes it's flaky and about half as fast cross country - it's also about 10 times more fun. The R8 is more fun also - Chris even agrees with me. It's not about numbers folks - it has to be about fun or what else is there?

Edited by macky17 on Sunday 12th May 17:55

tjlees

801 posts

123 months

[news] 
Sunday 12th May 2013 quote quote all
Or something British like a road legal Radical SR8 - which is £20ishk cheaper again hehe and would leave all the above well behind on a track.

Anyway before I get called back to the playground and top trumps with my school boy chums, I think neither the turbo s nor R8 owners really cares for stats - they all grade A weapons and are chosen for different reasons other than ultimate traffic light performance.

The R8 sounds fantastic and makes me really regret selling my m6 v10, however 4wd does allow all weather fun! Not sure about the R8 front Audi look but the inside, mid engine layout and v10 more than make up for this.

I think it's worth monkey or ph doing a piece on modified sports cars such as the gtr, 911, RS4 etc to show what you can have without comprising a cars balance too much. 996 turbos are relatively cheap now.

Nedzilla

2,040 posts

60 months

[news] 
Sunday 12th May 2013 quote quote all
macky17 said:
Yawn, not this again. In case you missed it, he was on a track. I have no doubt the GTR is awe-inspiring in such a setting (not as fun or involving as an Ariel Atom or Radical, etc. but no doubt a level above the other two). Get it on the road however and unless you drive like an idiot, it's dull. I owned one for 5 months. I now have a Tuscan S - yes it's flaky and about half as fast cross country - it's also about 10 times more fun. The R8 is more fun also - Chris even agrees with me. It's not about numbers folks - it has to be about fun or what else is there?

Edited by macky17 on Sunday 12th May 17:55
I don't know why this argument always seems to concern only the GTR.Yes they are far to capable to be exciting on the public roads but so are most sport/supercars today R8 and 911 turbo included.

70 mph speed limits,traffic jams and potholed roads are hardly the place to stretch the legs of any modern 190+mph sports car to be honest.

If you really want to wring the neck of a cars limits on the public roads in the UK then a 80's hot hatch is probably your limit.
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kambites

41,008 posts

107 months

[news] 
Sunday 12th May 2013 quote quote all
Nedzilla said:
I don't know why this argument always seems to concern only the GTR.Yes they are far to capable to be exciting on the public roads but so are most sport/supercars today R8 and 911 turbo included.

70 mph speed limits,traffic jams and potholed roads are hardly the place to stretch the legs of any modern 190+mph sports car to be honest.

If you really want to wring the neck of a cars limits on the public roads in the UK then a 80's hot hatch is probably your limit.
Indeed, so the important question becomes "what else does the car offer except for speed?". What many people seem to be saying in this case, is that the Audi offers more than the GTR.

Edited by kambites on Sunday 12th May 18:25

Dblue

2,299 posts

86 months

[news] 
Sunday 12th May 2013 quote quote all
I had a GTR for 14 months and 15000 miles and the only thing it was definitely NOT was dull.
Its a "right hoot"

So devastatingly fast, such an ally to the driver, LOL good. Its frankly nonsense that you can't use the performance on the road the same as any very quick car or superbike.

If that were actually true no one would buy one and keep it.

cmoose

25,783 posts

115 months

[news] 
Sunday 12th May 2013 quote quote all
Dblue said:
Its frankly nonsense that you can't use the performance on the road the same as any very quick car or superbike.
Cool. How often did you find yourself shifting up at max revs in 4th or 5th, then? You'll be doing 126mph and 147mph respectively. Hell, you're doing just about a ton at the top of third, which takes a mere moment to achieve. You must do some pretty big speeds if you're really using the performance.

Once I'm doing, say, 120 leptons on a B road, I'm going pretty much fast enough and I'll be lifting off, whatever car I'm in. Don't even use all the performance of my 2.5l Box. So props, etc.

macky17

621 posts

75 months

[news] 
Sunday 12th May 2013 quote quote all
kambites said:
Indeed, so the important question becomes "what else does the car offer except for speed?". What many people seem to be saying in this case, is that the Audi offers more than the GTR.

Edited by kambites on Sunday 12th May 18:25
Exactly. Interaction, theater - these are things the GTR (and 911 turbo, had one of those also) really don't have. Daily drivers but not weekend cars.

NomduJour

12,262 posts

145 months

[news] 
Sunday 12th May 2013 quote quote all
cmoose said:
How often did you find yourself shifting up at max revs in 4th or 5th, then? You'll be doing 126mph and 147mph respectively. Hell, you're doing just about a ton at the top of third, which takes a mere moment to achieve. You must do some pretty big speeds if you're really using the performance
Not the point, is it? Performance like that is about being able to drop a couple of gears and pick off a big line of cars, or accelerate silly-fast just for the sake of it, not just to count how many seconds you can hold your foot to the floor.

Troubleatmill

1,826 posts

45 months

[news] 
Sunday 12th May 2013 quote quote all
Less computers = More fun.
More computers = Less fun.

Fun > Outright speed.

Competitive racing drivers will take the speed advantage all day long.
I'd prefer to take the fun route.

The most fun cars I have owned have not had electronic gimmickry to save your blushes.
Even Granny can be a driving God with the electronic wizardry these days.

Dblue

2,299 posts

86 months

[news] 
Sunday 12th May 2013 quote quote all
cmoose said:
Dblue said:
Its frankly nonsense that you can't use the performance on the road the same as any very quick car or superbike.
Cool. How often did you find yourself shifting up at max revs in 4th or 5th, then? You'll be doing 126mph and 147mph respectively. Hell, you're doing just about a ton at the top of third, which takes a mere moment to achieve. You must do some pretty big speeds if you're really using the performance.

Once I'm doing, say, 120 leptons on a B road, I'm going pretty much fast enough and I'll be lifting off, whatever car I'm in. Don't even use all the performance of my 2.5l Box. So props, etc.
So your cool with 120mph (and youve never for a moment exceeded that) but you feel the need to air your very best sanctimonious sarcasm.
Fact is that I don't drive around at 150mph routinely but where the car is fast enough I use it's performance where appropriate.And I'm talking about acceleration here rather than even the most fleeting of 3 figure speeds.
I reckon a 600 bhp GTR would use a LOT less road getting to 150 mph than a 2.5 Boxster would getting to 120.


cmoose

25,783 posts

115 months

[news] 
Sunday 12th May 2013 quote quote all
NomduJour said:
Not the point, is it? Performance like that is about being able to drop a couple of gears and pick off a big line of cars, or accelerate silly-fast just for the sake of it, not just to count how many seconds you can hold your foot to the floor.
Apart from the overtaking point, which I agree with, the rest sounds, well...counting how many seconds you can hold your foot to the floor? OK!

Anyway, it wasn't me claiming I could use the performance of a GT-R. I think it's pretty obvious you can only use it in very brief squirts. I driven plenty of cars that are in the same very rough ballpark as the GT-R but are if anything a bit slower where you can't get near to using it all, and that's even if you're to drive in a fashion most would consider anti-social.

Personally, think the thirst for more and more grunt is what happens when people lose sight of everything else a great driver's car has to offer. Once you start automating major aspects of the driving experience, manage the stability and dynamics with code and servos, you marginalise the driver more and more and he ends up left with not much to do other than main line hits of acceleration.

macky17

621 posts

75 months

[news] 
Sunday 12th May 2013 quote quote all
cmoose said:
Personally, think the thirst for more and more grunt is what happens when people lose sight of everything else a great driver's car has to offer. Once you start automating major aspects of the driving experience, manage the stability and dynamics with code and servos, you marginalise the driver more and more and he ends up left with not much to do other than main line hits of acceleration.
Beautifully put. If I were a moderator I'd freeze the thread right there as there is no intelligent counterargument to this. Next.

Petrolhead95

6,344 posts

40 months

[news] 
Sunday 12th May 2013 quote quote all
I've got two questions about this video.

- Why have a tuned GT-R if you're making comparisons?

- Why have a brand new car (the R8) and a tuned car against the older Turbo S. Surely it would be fairer to wait until the 991 Turbo comes out.

Other than that, what a great video.

cmoose

25,783 posts

115 months

[news] 
Sunday 12th May 2013 quote quote all
Dblue said:
So your cool with 120mph (and youve never for a moment exceeded that) but you feel the need to air your very best sanctimonious sarcasm.
Fact is that I don't drive around at 150mph routinely but where the car is fast enough I use it's performance where appropriate.And I'm talking about acceleration here rather than even the most fleeting of 3 figure speeds.
I reckon a 600 bhp GTR would use a LOT less road getting to 150 mph than a 2.5 Boxster would getting to 120.
The problem is that if you only fleetingly hit three-figure speeds, you are not using the car's performance. Which is what you claimed, I'm afraid. It takes no time at all for a GT-R to go from normal road speeds to three figures. You're on the throttle only very briefly, barely touching the car's capabilities. Unless, that is, you spend a lot of time at 150mph+.

My point re 120 leptons involves the diminishing returns. No moral crusade, just the way I find it. The more performance you have, the less you can use. I personally find that it's not often I want to be travelling faster than that - and by the way, that doesn't mean I see any given speed as arbitrarily safe, it's just that in reality on single carriageway roads, it's not often I desire to be travelling at 150mph+. Thus there's very much a limit to how much performance is usable.

NomduJour

12,262 posts

145 months

[news] 
Sunday 12th May 2013 quote quote all
cmoose said:
Apart from the overtaking point, which I agree with, the rest sounds, well...counting how many seconds you can hold your foot to the floor? OK!

...

Personally, think the thirst for more and more grunt is what happens when people lose sight of everything else a great driver's car has to offer. Once you start automating major aspects of the driving experience, manage the stability and dynamics with code and servos, you marginalise the driver more and more and he ends up left with not much to do other than main line hits of acceleration.
You can attach the too-many-electronics label to most modern cars - the GT-R is by no means the worst culprit, despite what the internet says - and there's absolutely no reason why you can't have a car with proper feel and feedback which is also mental-fast.

If any of the three cars above had similar performance to a 2.5 986 (which is hardly a Caterham or an Atom in terms of a bare-bones driving experience anyway) I'm not sure they'd have much appeal.

Slow cars generally aren't much fun, however "telepathic" the steering or whatever is.

crazy about cars

3,748 posts

55 months

[news] 
Sunday 12th May 2013 quote quote all
Always seem to be a thorny debate if the GTR is involved smile Personally I respect the GTR as a car that punches above it's weight, a real performance bargain for the price. If I can afford the new R8 V10 I'd definitely would have chosen that as I've always fancied a mid-engined sports car. Not very sure about the Porker as I would've preferred the GT3 if I am going for a Porsche. Performance aside, I wished the GTR is more refined inside where I spend most of my time. The interior build quality could've been much better for the price the GTR is commanding now but I guess most of the budget went towards the performance bits.

Yes, there are a lot of performance-related tech in the GTR but most modern cars come with them so this is not something you can avoid. I will not say driving the GTR is dull but then again my car is lightly tuned smile

cmoose

25,783 posts

115 months

[news] 
Sunday 12th May 2013 quote quote all
NomduJour said:
You can attach the too-many-electronics label to most modern cars - the GT-R is by no means the worst culprit, despite what the internet says - and there's absolutely no reason why you can't have a car with proper feel and feedback which is also mental-fast.

If any of the three cars above had similar performance to a 2.5 986 (which is hardly a Caterham or an Atom in terms of a bare-bones driving experience anyway) I'm not sure they'd have much appeal.

Slow cars generally aren't much fun, however "telepathic" the steering or whatever is.
Agree with all of the above (though to be fair, I never made any claims re the 986 other than saying I didn't use all its performance).

Also didn't say slow was fun. I said it's a case of diminishing returns.

The critical point, however, it what you said about those cars not having much appeal if they had the performance of a 986. They wouldn't. And yet the 986 does. QED, old chap.

You certainly can have cars with both massive performance and high levels of involvement and feel. These cars aren't it.

NomduJour

12,262 posts

145 months

[news] 
Sunday 12th May 2013 quote quote all
cmoose said:
The critical point, however, it what you said about those cars not having much appeal if they had the performance of a 986. They wouldn't. And yet the 986 does. QED, old chap
So - would the Boxster be more or less appealing with more power, ceteris paribus?

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