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budgie smuggler

Original Poster:

1,348 posts

44 months

[news] 
Tuesday 25th June 2013 quote quote all
honestjohn said:
DPF removal is illegal under EC Type Approval and
Emissions regulations because it modifies the car not to
meet its certified emissions on the basis of which it is
taxed.
The fact that VOSA in the UK does not currently enforce
this in the MoT does not mean that it will not in the
future. Nor does it mean you could not be stopped in a
roadside VOSA check and have your car taken off the road
for not complying.

If you don't disclose the modification to your insurer
your car is automatically not covered (though 3rd party
damage has to be).

And, if it felt so inclined, HMRC could pursue you for tax
evasion.

So anyone thinking ore removing their DPF needs to be
aware of the potential consequences.
Does anybody know if the assertion John makes about it being illegal and that VOSA could in theory take your car off the road is true or not?

I realise DPF deletion could be considered anti-social, I'm specifically wondering about the legality.


Megaflow

4,609 posts

110 months

[news] 
Tuesday 25th June 2013 quote quote all
I'm sure it isn't.

The DPF removes particulate, obviously, but as far as I know, particulate matter is not measure during an MOT.

Perd Hapley

1,669 posts

58 months

[news] 
Tuesday 25th June 2013 quote quote all
Even if technically correct, I suspect the very worst you could expect is if they added the DPF to the MOT in years to come.

McWigglebum4th

29,855 posts

89 months

[news] 
Tuesday 25th June 2013 quote quote all
Tax evasion?

Erm


Lowtimer

1,302 posts

53 months

[news] 
Tuesday 25th June 2013 quote quote all
Is that what Honets John himself says, or a commenter on his site? I don't think he is correct in law, but then he is a dogmatic fellow on many subjects.

The bit about HMRC prosecuting you for tax evasion is complete nonsense, for a start.
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budgie smuggler

Original Poster:

1,348 posts

44 months

[news] 
Tuesday 25th June 2013 quote quote all
Lowtimer said:
Is that what Honets John himself says, or a commenter on his site? I don't think he is correct in law, but then he is a dogmatic fellow on many subjects.

The bit about HMRC prosecuting you for tax evasion is complete nonsense, for a start.
Well i took it from this post: http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/audi-repai...

forumpost said:
To quote directly from an email from Honest John when I asked him about DPF removal

honestjohn said:
DPF removal is illegal under EC Type Approval and
Emissions regulations because it modifies the car not to
meet its certified emissions on the basis of which it is
taxed.
The fact that VOSA in the UK does not currently enforce
this in the MoT does not mean that it will not in the
future. Nor does it mean you could not be stopped in a
roadside VOSA check and have your car taken off the road
for not complying.

If you don't disclose the modification to your insurer
your car is automatically not covered (though 3rd party
damage has to be).

And, if it felt so inclined, HMRC could pursue you for tax
evasion.

So anyone thinking ore removing their DPF needs to be
aware of the potential consequences
Honest John is The Telegraph's motoring expert and has a website here - http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/

Recent HJ comment on DPF removal

The only thing I can't currently reference is that it is enforced at MoT in other EU countries

cars1993

206 posts

89 months

[news] 
Tuesday 25th June 2013 quote quote all
Legally, its modifying a vehicle which was designed to have that item on it.

Quite frankly, if you declared it to your insurance company, and it passes an mot it is 100% legal

End of discussion smile

Shadows

375 posts

19 months

[news] 
Tuesday 25th June 2013 quote quote all
budgie smuggler said:
Does anybody know if the assertion John makes about it being illegal and that VOSA could in theory take your car off the road is true or not?

I realise DPF deletion could be considered anti-social, I'm specifically wondering about the legality.
Good question:

Let's take some Alfa's as an example, the 2.4 156 175 and 2.4 159 210.. For most part it's the same engine one comes fitted with a DPF, one doesn't. Even though it's released from manufacturer with that spec, under this legislation wouldn't the 156 be illegal? It has no DPF but uses the same engine.

There's hundred's of thousands of cars out there without one straight from the manufacturer, until an MOT compliance comes in place to enforce it I'm not sure how it could be illegal. Removing it would make no difference either unless they enforce all car's to have DPF's..

There are also cars out there passing there MOT without DPF's (after modification), so I think HJ could be right about the future. But as it stands in the UK, it's not illegal.





Edited by Shadows on Tuesday 25th June 19:27

AdeTuono

4,514 posts

112 months

[news] 
Tuesday 25th June 2013 quote quote all
The more I read of Honest John, the more I'm convinced he's a fking idiot.

Spangles

861 posts

70 months

[news] 
Tuesday 25th June 2013 quote quote all
I assume by tax evasion he means different rates of VED for less clean vehicles.

budgie smuggler

Original Poster:

1,348 posts

44 months

[news] 
Tuesday 25th June 2013 quote quote all
Spangles said:
I assume by tax evasion he means different rates of VED for less clean vehicles.
Maybe, but isn't that based on co2 rather than overall pollution? Does the DPF affect co2 output?

solid61

56 posts

25 months

[news] 
Tuesday 25th June 2013 quote quote all
AdeTuono said:
The more I read of Honest John, the more I'm convinced he's a fking idiot.
+1

Lowtimer

1,302 posts

53 months

[news] 
Tuesday 25th June 2013 quote quote all
Spangles said:
I assume by tax evasion he means different rates of VED for less clean vehicles.
Yes. But the VED rate for your vehicle is set at time of manufacture and not affected by subsequent modification either way (i.e. whether modified for more power, or more economy)

Otherwise every chipped turbo out there would be in a new tax band, and/or people would be getting prosected in droves,

clarkey540i

2,215 posts

59 months

[news] 
Tuesday 25th June 2013 quote quote all
budgie smuggler said:
Spangles said:
I assume by tax evasion he means different rates of VED for less clean vehicles.
Maybe, but isn't that based on co2 rather than overall pollution? Does the DPF affect co2 output?
Wouldn't have thought so, Co2 is a gas, not a particulate. This underlines the problem with the current system of taxing based on Co2; far worse polluting cars get off lightly because of their slightly lower level of Co2 output, whilst producing more particulate matter and 20X more NOx emissions.

Krikkit

4,987 posts

66 months

[news] 
Tuesday 25th June 2013 quote quote all
Shadows said:
Good question:

Let's take some Alfa's as an example, the 2.4 156 175 and 2.4 159 210.. For most part it's the same engine one comes fitted with a DPF, one doesn't. Even though it's released from manufacturer with that spec, under this legislation wouldn't the 156 be illegal? It has no DPF but uses the same engine.

There's hundred's of thousands of cars out there without one straight from the manufacturer, until an MOT compliance comes in place to enforce it I'm not sure how it could be illegal. Removing it would make no difference either unless they enforce all car's to have DPF's..

There are also cars out there passing there MOT without DPF's (after modification), so I think HJ could be right about the future. But as it stands in the UK, it's not illegal.
The older engines have been retro-fitted with the DPF and then re-certified. The older ones are not automatically illegal because they retain the specification that was legal when they were type approved.

Technically HJ is probably right, the requirement about catalytic converters is the same thing, just a different component. It's illegal not to have them where originally fitted now, I would imagine the DPF will become a tested item in the future. It'll be years before VOSA get round to it though.

Lowtimer

1,302 posts

53 months

[news] 
Tuesday 25th June 2013 quote quote all
Actually, thinking about it, losing the DPF would if anything slightly reduce the actual CO2 emissions by reducing back-pressure.

kambites

40,115 posts

106 months

[news] 
Tuesday 25th June 2013 quote quote all
Lowtimer said:
Actually, thinking about it, losing the DPF would if anything slightly reduce the actual CO2 emissions by reducing back-pressure.
If the engine is tuned for a DPF, I doubt removing it would actually improve economy. Probably wont make it any worse either, though. Do people typically re-map diesels after removing the DPF?

I can't see why removing a DPF would be illegal as long as the car can pass the MoT emissions tests, but I make no claim to be an expert. smile

Mr Gear

9,024 posts

75 months

[news] 
Tuesday 25th June 2013 quote quote all
What about the London Low Emission Zone though? That is technically a tax for those that don't meet it, and it is interested in particulate matter. http://www.tfl.gov.uk/roadusers/lez/17700.aspx

It may not be nice to read, but I believe that everything mentioned in the OP is true... it's just a matter of if it is enforced.

Does removing the DPF make your car uninsured? Maybe. In the same way that removing your original motorcycle exhaust and replacing it with an aftermarket one can make you uninsured if you are unlucky or have an awkward insurer who picks over wrecked vehicles carefully.

Shadows

375 posts

19 months

[news] 
Tuesday 25th June 2013 quote quote all
Krikkit said:
The older engines have been retro-fitted with the DPF and then re-certified. The older ones are not automatically illegal because they retain the specification that was legal when they were type approved.

Technically HJ is probably right, the requirement about catalytic converters is the same thing, just a different component. It's illegal not to have them where originally fitted now, I would imagine the DPF will become a tested item in the future. It'll be years before VOSA get round to it though.
I had one up to this year (156), they have not been retrofitted and no notification to do so has been delivered. EU Law's state that they can't be removed, but it's such a grey area in the UK. Well it's one more reason not to buy a diesel IMO, they decimate MPG and have a habit of causing reliability issues.

But agreed even if it isn't a requirement now, I can't see it being too long before they enforce it. Especially with the new EURO compliance coming into effect.

real4star

6,221 posts

22 months

[news] 
Tuesday 25th June 2013 quote quote all
Load of bks... That would mean blanked off/ non functioning EGR's are illegal too

Wouldn't it? and they DO affect particulate levels.
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