RE: Cosworth F1 engine for the road

RE: Cosworth F1 engine for the road

Thursday 27th June 2013

Cosworth F1 engine for the road

How Cosworth's abandoned four-cylinder F1 engine may yet live on in road cars



Remember the F1-derived 500bhp 1.6-litre turbo engine that was going to provide the combustion side of the muscle to Jaguar's ill-fated hybrid C-X75 hypercar? Well, that engine is still being developed and could yet make production, we hear.

1.6 'screamer' proposed for Jaguar's C-X75
1.6 'screamer' proposed for Jaguar's C-X75
We spoke to Cosworth's principal engineer Andy Ball, who told us the engine the firm first built way back when Formula 1 thought it was shifting to four-cylinder turbos for next year (before deciding a V6 was more fitting) is still alive with a road-car manufacturer.

He declined to say which manufacturer, but it was no secret that Cosworth was the maker behind the four-pot, 10,000rpm screamer that Jaguar had earmarked for the C-X75.

Whether it's with Jaguar or not, Ball told us Cosworth were still working to adapt for an eventual production car. "We've being doing development engines. We're still partnering on this," he said. "As a road-going engine it could have similar specific power as a Formula 1 engine of 300hp/litre," he said.

Ford's 1.6 Ecoboost typical of modern downsizing
Ford's 1.6 Ecoboost typical of modern downsizing
The firm has been squeezed out of F1 next year after its final customer Marussia switched engine supplier but Ball says what could have been an expensive cul-de-sac with the four-cylinder development has in fact opened doors with car makers in an era of downsizing.

"We're talking with quite a few manufacturers about doing engines of this ilk - downsized, high specific power output engines," Ball said.

Of course they'll need a bit more longevity than the average F1 engine, but Cosworth knows a thing about that. "We're very good at taking engines of the limit and knowing where that limit is. With our F1 engines, if we're not breaking stuff, we don't consider we're near the limit." He was reassuring about not just power but also the emotional punch of very high performance four-cylinder engines. "If you hear the engine I don't think you'd be too disappointed with how it sounds. It doesn't have the V8 rumble but it still sounds impressive and racy," he said.

Cosworth knows a thing or two about racy motors
Cosworth knows a thing or two about racy motors
It's a big deal when the likes of Alfa with the 4C and the proposed Alpine/Caterham are using (or are likely to use) sub 2.0-liter four-cylinder engines but come with a price tag around £50,000.

It's also good to hear that F1 technology does filter down to road cars, and not just exotica like the Enzo. Ball says it's happening more and more: "Race-bred components are starting to find their way into mainstream automotive applications already, like DLC [Diamond-like Carbon]." This low-friction coating for elements like valves and pistons was mostly announced for a revised diesel engine in the Nissan Juke, of all things.

Meanwhile Jaguar is saying that while the C-X75 is dead, technology like the engine and the hybrid system isn't. "With projects like C-X75 we are laying the foundations for the next generation of Jaguar innovations," Jaguar's global brand director, Adrian Hallmark, said in a statement recently.

It's reassuring really. If the test-bed of racing can help lower emissions on road cars at all levels, then we know it'll be safe in the future.

Author
Discussion

lgomgf

Original Poster:

237 posts

188 months

Thursday 27th June 2013
quotequote all
that would be nice to see and hear a 10.000 rpm in a "normal" road car

Jasper Gilder

2,166 posts

273 months

Thursday 27th June 2013
quotequote all
Think Andy Ball may be a Principal Engineer rather than one who is concerned with principles!

skyrover

12,671 posts

204 months

Thursday 27th June 2013
quotequote all
There's a reason people are now referring to the ecoboost as the ecobang

NRS

22,163 posts

201 months

Thursday 27th June 2013
quotequote all
Think it's not the biggest secret as to who it is since Jaguar released this video yesterday, biggrin

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embed...

Would love to see it made - surely one of the best looking cars for many many years.

Some Gump

12,690 posts

186 months

Thursday 27th June 2013
quotequote all
I wonder what the packaging / heat management requiremens are?

Twincam16

27,646 posts

258 months

Thursday 27th June 2013
quotequote all
This would be absolutely ideal for the Lotus Elise. Also, think of the cachet 'Lotus-Cosworth' carries.

Oddball RS

1,757 posts

218 months

Thursday 27th June 2013
quotequote all
Its more than likely, the engine in the A45 AMG is based around Merc's 4cyl F1 still born engine.

r11co

6,244 posts

230 months

Thursday 27th June 2013
quotequote all
Twincam16 said:
This would be absolutely ideal for the Lotus Elise. Also, think of the cachet 'Lotus-Cosworth' carries.
Yeah, right. The shape Lotus are in they'll be powering their cars with rubber bands soon, plus the only hope of Lotus road car survival is through the F1 team and they are firmly married to Renault engines.

Mr.Jimbo

2,082 posts

183 months

Thursday 27th June 2013
quotequote all
That CX-75 video give you an idea of how mental this engine is, have your ever heard an S1600 rally car? Imagine that in a sportscar. As much as the noise doesn't suit the application, it's still undeniably impressive to get 502bhp out of a 1.6 (313bhp per litre) - in the CX-75 that's entirely the engine, the twin hybrid motors up it to 850bhp!

Was quite impressed, talking to Andy recently and he mentioned the goal of 100,000 mile lifespan for the engine. It might not sound much but when you consider the lifespan of an F1 or WRC/Race engine, it's about 20 times better!

Hellbound

2,500 posts

176 months

Thursday 27th June 2013
quotequote all
Toyota would be good. A new MR2 powered by Cosworth and they could sell the engines on to Lotus.

Failing that, the next Honda S2000? Or even NSX!

drophead

1,056 posts

157 months

Thursday 27th June 2013
quotequote all
Would be awesome if this was the dropped into a Caterham. Reliable enough for the image, no expects a Caterham to do 100,000 miles. This engine is perfect.

smartie93

99 posts

165 months

Thursday 27th June 2013
quotequote all
skyrover said:
There's a reason people are now referring to the ecoboost as the ecobang
I have never heard that, nor has google.

tomoleeds

770 posts

186 months

Thursday 27th June 2013
quotequote all
osworth will always be Ford , to me , sierra or Escort the dream cars for some men (and women) in the 1980"s/1990"s back then 205bhp in a normal road car was fast ,Prices have gone high in the last 12 months ,a RS500 was for sale 2 weeks ago for £59,000 I think it sold but others are high

Niffty951

2,333 posts

228 months

Thursday 27th June 2013
quotequote all
500hp 1.6 revving to 10,000 rpm. Group B T16 with a warranty.

Where do I sign?

oldtimer2

728 posts

133 months

Thursday 27th June 2013
quotequote all
NRS said:
Think it's not the biggest secret as to who it is since Jaguar released this video yesterday, biggrin

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embed...

Would love to see it made - surely one of the best looking cars for many many years.
My guess is that it is Jaguar too.

My second guess is that Jaguar will run the C-X75 at Goodwood this year as a foretaste, not of this model, which they have already said they will not produce, but of some of the technology we may expect in the C-X16. Jaguar`s teaser video of that prototype closed with a brief shot of "Hybrid" as the tailgate was shut. As a bonus we might get to see the coupe version of the F-Type as well. What better way to rain on Porsche`s anniversay parade!

My third guess is that a productionised version of this technology will appear in the 4 cylinder Hotfire engine that will be produced by JLR in their new Wolverhampton factory now under construction.

Of course once that technology is applied to the 4 cylinder engine, it does not take much imagination to suppose it could read across to 3 cylinder in line and v6 engines too.

Of course it is all guesswork. But Jaguar do not release videos like this without a reason.

oldtimer2

728 posts

133 months

Thursday 27th June 2013
quotequote all
NRS said:
Think it's not the biggest secret as to who it is since Jaguar released this video yesterday, biggrin

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embed...

Would love to see it made - surely one of the best looking cars for many many years.
My guess is that it is Jaguar too.

My second guess is that Jaguar will run the C-X75 at Goodwood this year as a foretaste, not of this model, which they have already said they will not produce, but of some of the technology we may expect in the C-X16. Jaguar`s teaser video of that prototype closed with a brief shot of "Hybrid" as the tailgate was shut. As a bonus we might get to see the coupe version of the F-Type as well. What better way to rain on Porsche`s anniversay parade!

My third guess is that a productionised version of this technology will appear in the 4 cylinder Hotfire engine that will be produced by JLR in their new Wolverhampton factory now under construction.

Of course once that technology is applied to the 4 cylinder engine, it does not take much imagination to suppose it could read across to 3 cylinder in line and v6 engines too.

Of course it is all guesswork. But Jaguar do not release videos like this without a reason.

HorneyMX5

5,309 posts

150 months

Thursday 27th June 2013
quotequote all
I want this engine in my MX5.

sideways man

1,316 posts

137 months

Thursday 27th June 2013
quotequote all
[quote=NRS]Think it's not the biggest secret as to who it is since Jaguar released this video yesterday, biggrin

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embed...

That's an impressive car/engine combination. Would make a fab Alfa 4c competitor.

Krikkit

26,527 posts

181 months

Thursday 27th June 2013
quotequote all
drophead said:
Would be awesome if this was the dropped into a Caterham. Reliable enough for the image, no expects a Caterham to do 100,000 miles. This engine is perfect.
"Perfect", as in utterly suicidal? 500bhp in a Caterham? hehe

oldtimer2

728 posts

133 months

Thursday 27th June 2013
quotequote all
From the Jaguar press release about the C-X75

"The great achievements in the development of C-X75 prototypes - including cutting-edge hybrid technologies, carbon composite materials and advanced design solutions pioneered in association with Williams Advanced Engineering - will be utilised in other areas of research and development, innovative future products and next-generation engineering for the Jaguar and Land Rover brands."