Motor Trader & SOGA / Refund

[Snowboy]

Let VOSA do their thing.

Assuming they say the car is a wreck your best bet is to refund the buyer and take the car back.
You're a dealer not a private seller so it's what you should do.

If VOSA say the car is fine then see if he wants to keep it.

[ridds]

Spangles said:

ridds said:

I'm amazed VOSA are inviting the MoT'er along.

You're very easily amazed. When VOSA retest a car after an MOT complaint they do it at a different garage, using their own inspectors but the original tester is invited along if he wants to come.

Having dealt with VOSA though I'm 'amazed' they've turned it round so quickly.

Not easily amazed you sarky buffoon. If VOSA want to investigate a MoT'er for possible wrong doings why invite him along at the first instance. He'll declare the car was fine when he saw it and that will be it, the test was performed over 6 weeks ago. Said tester will then be squeaky clean when checking other cars and unlikely to be caught doing any wrong.

That, combined with the short notice, if you were going to give a MOT tester an opportunity to have his work scrutinised and possibly challenged over his judgement then surely they have to give him more than 3 days notice. "Sorry boss I'm off out for the day to drive to a garage 100 miles away as VOSA want to check the quality of my inspection abilities." The whole thing just stinks to me.

[4rephill]

TROOPER88 said:

.........Would it be fair/appropriate though for me to still offer a full refund after VOSA have inspected the car 'if' they deem it un-roadworthy and condemn it from the public highway until it is made safe?

Cheers

How could it not be deemed fair?

All you are doing is putting the buyer back in the same position he was in before he bought the car.

You can't offer only a partial refund due to the car being declared un-roadworthy by VOSA and therefore worth less, that would be totally unfair on the buyer (and illegal!).

You shouldn't offer the buyer more than he paid for the car as that would make no sense whatsoever! (And if you did that sort of thing, you'll not be in the motor-trade for long!).


If it's declared un-roadworthy and condemned from use on the road, then your best course of action is to give a full refund and arrange to collect the car from the buyer at your cost.



Be very aware that the art of a good con is to be totally convincing!

Whilst this case may well be genuine, you'll encounter loads of buyers who appear to be the nicest person you could wish to meet, sell them a car and then here from them later about problems they're suddenly having with the car that "their mechanic friend" has found.

They'll say that they really don't like having to cause problems because you were so good to do business with, but you should really pay for their repairs, or at least a part of the repair bill. Then you end up paying for a fault that never existed!

It'll go something like this:

"Hi, it's Mr/Mrs Xxxxxxxxxx here, I bought the xxxxxx xxxxx from you last week. I still love the car and it was great doing business with you, I've told everyone I know that if they're looking for a car, go to you! One thing though, the guy I take My cars to for servicing has noted that there's a problem with a bearing in the gearbox which he says is on the way out and needs replacing.

I don't want to reject the car because I love it, but he says that I shouldn't really have to pay for the cost of repairs as the fault was there when I bought it. he reckons it'll cost @ £600 to fix it with all the labour involved.

As I say, I hate to put this on you so I was thinking if you pay £400 towards the repair, I'll put the other £200 in, because you were so good to Me when I bought it.

I would bring it back to you to sort but it's easier for Me if My mechanic does it as he can supply Me a loan car whilst Mines being worked on and you're a bit too far away really!

If you can let Me ASAP, then I can get him to sort it and get back to enjoying My new toy!

Thanks a lot!"

Fall for it and they've got £400 of their money back whilst the car remains faultless the whole time!

[Spangles]

ridds said:

Spangles said:

ridds said:

I'm amazed VOSA are inviting the MoT'er along.

You're very easily amazed. When VOSA retest a car after an MOT complaint they do it at a different garage, using their own inspectors but the original tester is invited along if he wants to come.

Having dealt with VOSA though I'm 'amazed' they've turned it round so quickly.

Not easily amazed you sarky buffoon. If VOSA want to investigate a MoT'er for possible wrong doings why invite him along at the first instance. He'll declare the car was fine when he saw it and that will be it, the test was performed over 6 weeks ago. Said tester will then be squeaky clean when checking other cars and unlikely to be caught doing any wrong.

That, combined with the short notice, if you were going to give a MOT tester an opportunity to have his work scrutinised and possibly challenged over his judgement then surely they have to give him more than 3 days notice. "Sorry boss I'm off out for the day to drive to a garage 100 miles away as VOSA want to check the quality of my inspection abilities." The whole thing just stinks to me.

That's the way VOSA works but in my experience you get more than 3 days notice which is why I'm surprised it's gone through this quickly.

Corrosion issues can be the basis of an MOT complaint up to 3mths after the test. VOSA themselves retest the car and their decision is final, the tester can say what he likes about the state of the car when he tested it, VOSA have heard it all before.

[M3333]

Give the guy his money back.

Just to add some garages deffo have a vested interest in some cars they have on the ramps. A few weeks ago my e39 started having a knock on the front end so i popped it into a local garage in the area i was working in. I know my car very well as i look after it generally myself, i just wanted to establish nothing major was wrong before driving it home.

The garage in question ripped the car to pieces, told me the brakes were rotten, rust all over the underside, disk and pads are faulty, oil leaks etc. This is total rubbish, i even got under the car while it was on the ramp myself and there is nothing wrong with it, the last owner spent over 5k keeping it in very good condition. The man at the garage also commented 'it goes well doesn't it' as he had taken it around the block to listen to the knock.

I can only summarise he was going to try and play on my fears and offer me a cheap price to take the car off my hands. Sadly for him it did not work this time!

[ging84]

Grenoble said:

Not sure I follow your point. Could you elaborate without the lizard people references?

There is a lizard person behind every good conspiracy theory

[valiant]

Do not under any circumstances offer to 'chip in' with the repair cost. Let VOSA do their thing (if they are at all) and get the car trailered back.

Offer the lad a full refund only and put a strict time limit on acceptance (say 3 days).

You have then met all your obligations under SOGA and he will be not one penny out of pocket.

If he delays or is being an obstructive fool then he can take you to all the courts in the land. You have fulfilled your obligations.

Once again. NO REPAIR CONTRIBUTIONS. ONLY FULL REFUND OR NOWT.

[Mojooo]

Grenoble said:

Is SOGA that prescriptive? If I buy a hifi from a shop and its not fit under SOGA, I still have to return it to the shop for my refund. I guess the key is if it is roadworthy or not?

If you suffer a breach of contract then you should not be outof pocket. So if you buy a higi from an online shop and it is misdescribed then you should not have to pay for return delivery and be out of pocket.

The same would technically apply if you had to return to a shop - but I think we have an acceptance that when you take goods back to a shop you normally incur the cost of your trvel - it coudl be harsh ona shop if a customer has trvaelled 100 miles and try to lcaim bakc costs as it is somethign the shop cannot control and a courtprobably wouldn't award that sum.

And of course you have to factor in what the shop will offer and what you will have to argue for in court.

It will be in the SOGA somewhere or under contract law.

As far as secondhand cars go, I think most people would be relieved to get a full refund so would stomach the 1 hour journey or £20 petrol - but techically they cost claim for those costs.

[POORCARDEALER]

The last one of these I was involved in was a crazy women from the midlands....."her trusted garage, she and work colleagues used for 20 years" said the car was a death trap, needed 1300 quids worth of repair.

It passed a VOSA test.

Everthing is not always as it appears.

[pcvdriver]

aw51 121565 said:

TROOPER88 said:

Just had another e-mail from the lad. As I mentioned he is very genuine and all is above board:



VOSA got back in touch with me after the sending you the message.

They'll be retesting the vehicle thursday from an independent garage, the guy who MOT'd it last is given an option to be there while they undertake the test and i will be given the results. The outcome will be either:

- A document saying whether it would pass or fail if it were to go for an MOT
- If i apposed immediate danger on the road the vehicle will be legally taken off the road and not allowed to be driven (this will be in the worst case senario)

Doesn't say that here ...

If this is "all is above board" then I'm a dutchman - and ze clogsh and ze shmokesh are shtaying in zeir cupboard . As should your money, until you've appealed against the MoT yourself???

actually in Dutch it would be.... De klompen en de roken verblijft in de kast!!!

[TROOPER88]

UPDATE......

The car was inspected by VOSA on Thursday and has been deemed too dangerous to be on the public highway and therefore has been condemned and made illegal to use.

The list of failure items is long but most of which are serious corrosion issues.

I am going to be giving a full refund and arranging for the car to be collected next week.

Ok, I suspect the guy that I purchased the car from to be a trader. I acquired it through e-bay but never met the seller as he dropped the car to my parents place where I collected it from a few days later.

In his e-bay description he stated that he had owned upward of 30 MK2 Golf's and this was one of the best. He was not the registered keeper of the car and his e-bay account is a business account for car spares.

I have been keeping him in the loop over the past week or so and have informed him that unless he offers a full refund on the car I will be going through money claim on-line and subsequently through the small claims court. I will be filling out all of the necessary documents today. I gave hime until 8pm yesterday to reply.

At first he was returning my e-mails and it sounded hopeful that he would co-operate. He has a trailer and even mentioned that he could weld. This would mean that he could take the car back, carry out the required work before getting a new MOT and selling it on.
Unfortunately he has ignored / not replied to my last 3 e-mails of which I will be keeping copies. The 3 e-mails all give him the opportunity to offer a full refund or court proceedings would begin.

I spoke with VOSA on Friday and they informed me that they will be dealing with the MOT center in question. This does not really help me out as I could potentially be a couple of thousand out of pocket.
This whole fiasco is down to the MOT center not carrying out a thorough MOT. Therfore do you think I should be filing a seperate money-claim appeal again the MOT center?

The guy I sold the car to did call the MOT center but he said their attitude was very poor. He was told to go straight to VOSA if he had a problem.

It will cost me circa £30 for each on-line money claim but each party will have court papers drop on their door-step by the end of the week.

[PurpleMoonlight]

Unless you can demonstrate the seller is likely a trader, I fear you are going to struggle to get your money back from him. He will hang his hat on the recent MOT and claim he acted in good faith.

Is he currently selling any other cars? Does he have a feedback history of selling cars? What was his basis for not being recorded as the registered keeper?

[POORCARDEALER]

If he is a trader he has sold an unroadworthy car, even though he could claim to have trusted the fact it had been recently mot tested.

Edited by POORCARDEALER on Sunday 14th July 08:41

[TROOPER88]

PurpleMoonlight said:

Unless you can demonstrate the seller is likely a trader, I fear you are going to struggle to get your money back from him. He will hang his hat on the recent MOT and claim he acted in good faith.

Is he currently selling any other cars? Does he have a feedback history of selling cars? What was his basis for not being recorded as the registered keeper?

Hi
In the last few weeks he has changed his e-bay account to private...
This mean I am unable to check his feedback,

My first question to him when I saw it on e-bay was to enquire whether he was a business seller and he replied that 'it was one of his collection'.....

He went on to say:

I have sold a fair few Mk2's and this is probably the best. My previous sales include a number of very low mileage examples as well...

Why he did not become the registered keeper I do not know. When I get the car back I will be contacting the last owner on the log book to investigate who they sold it to.

Cheers

[wolf1]

Hang on a minute, You are by admission trading and bought from another so called trader, I do have that right don't I?
Then I may be wrong but trade to trade there is no guarantee or soga etc as you are both deemed to be proficient enough to know what you are doing etc. For that reason I'm not 100% sure you can go the full consumer protection just a member of the public route.

As I said I may be wrong though.

[markmullen]

wolf1 said:

Hang on a minute, You are by admission trading and bought from another so called trader, I do have that right don't I?
Then I may be wrong but trade to trade there is no guarantee or soga etc as you are both deemed to be proficient enough to know what you are doing etc. For that reason I'm not 100% sure you can go the full consumer protection just a member of the public route.
.

This.

You're either in the trade, or not.

If you are then you bought the car through the trade, from a trader, and you suck it up. Trade deals are no comeback, those of us who do this for a living understand that.

[TROOPER88]

markmullen said:

This.

You're either in the trade, or not.

If you are then you bought the car through the trade, from a trader, and you suck it up. Trade deals are no comeback, those of us who do this for a living understand that.

And what about the MOT center?

[petergukM500]

TROOPER88 said:

never met the seller as he dropped the car to my parents place.

TROOPER88 said:

Why he did not become the registered keeper I do not know.

Bought the car blind off ebay.

Didn't go to owners registered address to collect.

V5 not in his name.

And you believed it was a private sale? Good luck in the motor trade.

[Jimmyarm]

We had a similar situation to this at work with a Ford KA, the main difference being we were the ones inspecting the car for the purchasing dealer (you in this instance).

It had been MOT'd 2 months before our trader chap had bought it, he sold it and said he would put 12 months MOT on it for the buyer.

In it goes for an MOT and it fails on massive amounts of corrosion - sills & front subframe mountings. All of which would have been aparrent at the MOT 2 months before. There were no advisories for the corrosion, no mention at all.

Our trader phoned up the previous testing station and asked them what they would like to do a) buy the car off him for what he paid for it or b) let VOSA inspect it.

They bought the car off him for what he paid plus a bit for his troubles.

Not much help here I guess as VOSA have already got involved

[Butter Face]

TROOPER88 said:

markmullen said:

This.

You're either in the trade, or not.

If you are then you bought the car through the trade, from a trader, and you suck it up. Trade deals are no comeback, those of us who do this for a living understand that.

And what about the MOT center?

I dare say that you don't really have any recourse against anyone. VOSA will discipline the MOT test centre that passed if it they feel it shouldn't have passed.

As Mark said, trade-to-trade you just have to suck it up. Get it fixed, sold and move on.

I buy lots of cars unseen and with just the word of the person trading it to me as guidance, but I always factor in that it will almost always need some kind of prep that hasn't been picked up.

At the end of the market you're dealing with you will unfortunately deal with a lot of the st.