2 post or 4 post lift?

[MrMCI]

Hi all,

I am looking forward to getting a new house with a massive double garage. Therefore after years of scrabbling around on the floor I am going to treat myself to a lift. The reason for the question is that my two toys (the Griff and Lotus Europa) both have backbone chassis. I would really like to be able to store the cars one above the other over the winter to free up some room and I would also like to be able to use the lift to remove the body from the lotus for a re-build. I guess really my questions boil down to:

How can you lift a car with a backbone chassis on a two post lift?
How do you lift the wheels on a four post lift?
If I went 4 post, how could I lift the body off the lotus?

Thanks in advance, I hope everyone is out enjoying the sun

Mark

[budd]

simply put a 2 poster places 4 pads on the chassis to lift the car while a 4 poster lifts the whole via its wheels, a 2 poster is great for suspension work because the wheels are not supported giving access to suspension components etc a 4 poster allows access to the under side but the suspension stays loaded this great for clutch changes and suspension set-up but not so good for suspension removal, I think if I had the room I’d go for a 4 poster because while it doesn’t allow the suspension to ‘droop’ you can buy a ramp based jack that does allow the suspension to be un-loaded, (like a MOT station) so on balance I’d say a 4 poster is preferable 

[Aussie John]

Went for the 4 poster, no worries, great for storage and good for working on. They are usually supplied with a jacking support so it's good to work on suspension [ maybe not as easy as a 2 poster] but at least with the 4 you can just drive on and lift instead of grovelling with the arms on the 2 poster before lifting plus your suspension is at normal road height when stored and not at full droop.

[Sardonicus]

2 Poster every time for me having used both in my 27 years on the tools just make sure you get one with arm pads able to fit under sports cars and symmetrical (equal length) arms are a bonus too

[Loubaruch]

Agree with John I would opt for the 4 post with Jacking beam.

One thing you may not have considered is the power supply.

If you are buying second hand it is most likely to have a 3 phase motor, not many domestic houses have 3 phase electrics.
So you either convert to single phase by altering the motor which may not be straightforward or purchase a single phase to 3 phase converter. The latter are not cheap for the size required in fact will probably cost you more than a second hand lift.

If you are buying new, the previous does not apply but ensure you have enough power available in the garage to drive it. My 4 post has a 3HP motor and required very heavy duty cable from the house to avoid voltage drop at the start.

Lastly, I would not be happy storing a car on a lift for an extended time as if the hydraulic seals fail you will have a real problem to sort out even if the emergency systems prevents the lift crushing the car below.

[Discopotatoes]

I will be doing the same once I've built my garage.
I've spent a while debating 2 or 4 posts, and settled on 4 post with jacking beams so when I use it as under / over storage I can have drip trays to keep the lower car clean.
Reference you question how to lift the body with a 4 post, I'd just use strops front and rear with 4x2 or larger through he arches once lifted roll the chassis out the way then lower the body onto dollys and out of the way then you free to put the rolling chassis on the ramps to work on.

Edited by Discopotatoes on Monday 15th July 00:18

[Pete Mac]

MrMCI said:

Hi all,

I am looking forward to getting a new house with a massive double garage. Therefore after years of scrabbling around on the floor I am going to treat myself to a lift. The reason for the question is that my two toys (the Griff and Lotus Europa) both have backbone chassis. I would really like to be able to store the cars one above the other over the winter to free up some room and I would also like to be able to use the lift to remove the body from the lotus for a re-build. I guess really my questions boil down to:

How can you lift a car with a backbone chassis on a two post lift?
How do you lift the wheels on a four post lift?
If I went 4 post, how could I lift the body off the lotus?

Thanks in advance, I hope everyone is out enjoying the sun

Mark

Mark

I can only give you my experience:

I have just completed (almost) a double garage to house my two Griffs. I opted for a 2-Post Lift from Automotech. I have not yet commissioned the lift so I cannot either recommend or not the lift, however the installation was quite straightforward considering my garage has a basement workshop and the 2-Post Lift sits on 'stools' sitting on the Steel Universal Beams of the basement roof. (yes, it has all been worked out by a structural engineer before anybody chips in)

It sounds like you are buying a ready built garage rather than building it yourself but in both cases you do need to consider the ceiling height. I have got 3.2m ceiling height which should allow me to work on the Griffs, work on a normal hatchback such as my Golf but I think it will give some height issues if I choose to work on my Discovery. The other benefit is I will be able to store the Griffs one above each other in the winter.

I opted for the 2 post because I believe it gives me far greater access to the underneath and the arms are low enough and long enough to find suitable lifting points.

If you see the Wheeler Dealers episode where he rebuilds a Cerbera, he lifts the body from the chassis using a 2-Post Lift by putting the arms under the wheel arches and he also lifts the whole car using the 2-poster, therefore this implies that the 2-poster will be fine for the Griff, so why not the Europa?

You can opt for either a single or a 3-Phase motor for my lift. I went single phase and it comes with a 2.5 HP motor so nothing extraordiary although I have an issue with my power supply cable and am going to re-lay with a 10mm2 cable so I can run a large compressor and welding gear.

I am happy to share experiences with you in greater detail if you want to e-mail me.

Good luck

Peter

[Sardonicus]

Most single phase lifts will quite happily run off a 20A breaker with no issues on domestic supply 3 phase is longer lived (very few households will have) but from a DIY point of view you will never exploit the life span of a quality 1 phase motor single to three phase converters have improved massively over the years but what's the point in adding extra complexity and cost to the install ?

[spartridge]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CAR-LIFT-RAMP-4-POST-4-2...

Tempting...

[Sardonicus]

Not scare mongering here but be careful of cheap China imports I know from a reliable source of a retired equipment seller of all people being pinned to the wall and losing the use of an arm through cutting corners on a quality ramp do your homework I am also not implicating that everything that comes from China is rubbish but unfortunately the middle man wants cheap and that often gets passed onto the manufacturer hence the quality/materials suffers and problems like this http://www.hse.gov.uk/foi/internalops/sims/manuf/3...

Edited by Sardonicus on Monday 15th July 11:15

[spartridge]

It's exactly this that has stopped me pushing the button on getting one....plus availability of parts if it goes wrong.

[Pete Mac]

Sardonicus said:

Not scare mongering here but be careful of cheap China imports I know from a reliable source of a retired equipment seller of all people being pinned to the wall and losing the use of an arm through cutting corners on a quality ramp do your homework I am also not implicating that everything that comes from China is rubbish but unfortunately the middle man wants cheap and that often gets passed onto the manufacturer hence the quality/materials suffers and problems like this http://www.hse.gov.uk/foi/internalops/sims/manuf/3...

Edited by Sardonicus on Monday 15th July 11:15

You need to be a bit careful on this one. I discussed at length with Automotech, the issue of 'China' sourced lifts. They confirmed their lifts were from China but there again they also confirmed that most lifts are manufactured in China, even from the big named suppliers. I bought from Automotech because they seemed to have good feedback and the quality of the lift I received looks very good.

There is an awful lot of scaremongering on the internet, so much so it makes it difficult to make decisions. A product sold in the UK will have statutory guarantee, you can ask the manufacturer for the number of failures he has experienced etc. etc. however sooner or later you have to make a decision

[mattrosersv]

I bought a 4 poster from the guys on the ebay link above. Best thing I ever did!

Agree with comments around 4 poster vs 2 poster I decided on a 4 poster as with jacking beam I can unload suspension and also makes it easy when setting up ride heights Allowed me the option of over and under TVRs as well

I did have a valve that leaked and after 2 years I got around to calling the seller who was very helpful and sent me one in the post the next day FOC!

Runs off 20 amp breaker, but you need to get the one that allows for a hefty draw on startup. The standard breaker I installed initially used to ping on startup.

I did a body off on the Chimaera (sorry!) and as a previous poster mentioned simply used 4 x2 under the front and a steel bar at the back tied onto the ramp and off she came.

Also when building the garage I had a steel beam installed over the section without the lift which is dead handy for lifting stuff with a block and tackle (engines, motorbikes etc). Worth considering if a new build.


Matt

[UKAuto]

first - mine was USA made, and very well made. I have seen junk ones from China in the past... but now, very few years later it seems the majority are from China, some built to the higher standards and comparable to the North American lift, others remain junk. Don't buy based on country of origin, buy on construction and reputation.

Now, for me it was four posts.

A few people have mentioned getting a jacking bridge. In fact, get two. Along with the two jacking bridges you can opt for two sets of axle stands. First put your car on the hoist, then raise it and slip four (long reach) axle stands under appropriate positions, then carefully lower the hoist until it is on the ground, but the axle stands have lifted the car. Now you can put four smaller stands between the jack bridges and other appropriate points on the frame, lift the hoist, and the car transfers it's weight from the jack stands on the floor, to the jack stands on the jacking bridges.

Not as tricky as it sounds.

Alternative is also reasonable, but a wee bit more effort - use the jacking stands as intended, raise the car by jacks sitting in the bridges. But either way, it is well worth having two bridges rather than the more common single bridge (and can maybe work it in to the deal for free).

Now, with all this said, when you have it on the axle stands via the jacking bridges, all wheels off, up in the air, you will find a four post has somewhat compromised access for some work as you must reach over the platform, and movement between being beside the car and under the car requires more ducking than with a two post. The two post is easier on that front, but not ideal for car storage, as the suspension is dangling.

So, conclusion, if one hoist I would lean towards four post, but don't you have room for one of each ;-)

[Pete Mac]

UKAuto said:

first - mine was USA made, and very well made. I have seen junk ones from China in the past... but now, very few years later it seems the majority are from China, some built to the higher standards and comparable to the North American lift, others remain junk. Don't buy based on country of origin, buy on construction and reputation.

Now, for me it was four posts.

A few people have mentioned getting a jacking bridge. In fact, get two. Along with the two jacking bridges you can opt for two sets of axle stands. First put your car on the hoist, then raise it and slip four (long reach) axle stands under appropriate positions, then carefully lower the hoist until it is on the ground, but the axle stands have lifted the car. Now you can put four smaller stands between the jack bridges and other appropriate points on the frame, lift the hoist, and the car transfers it's weight from the jack stands on the floor, to the jack stands on the jacking bridges.

Not as tricky as it sounds.

Alternative is also reasonable, but a wee bit more effort - use the jacking stands as intended, raise the car by jacks sitting in the bridges. But either way, it is well worth having two bridges rather than the more common single bridge (and can maybe work it in to the deal for free).

Now, with all this said, when you have it on the axle stands via the jacking bridges, all wheels off, up in the air, you will find a four post has somewhat compromised access for some work as you must reach over the platform, and movement between being beside the car and under the car requires more ducking than with a two post. The two post is easier on that front, but not ideal for car storage, as the suspension is dangling.

So, conclusion, if one hoist I would lean towards four post, but don't you have room for one of each ;-)

So in conclusion:

- a lift is a "must have". I changed the exhaust manifold gasket on my Griff on a 4 post lift, which I "borrowed". Unbelievably difficult without a lift but with a lift it was a 1 hour job
- Don't buy on country of manufacture, buy on quality and recommendations
- 4 post lifts are a bit more robust perhaps and a bit better for storage but a 2 post gives better access to the underside and may have advantages for lifting a body from a chassis (debateable)
- make sure you have sufficient electrical supply and your breaker can take the power surge
- ensure you have sufficent head height. I recommend minimum 3.2m but if you only intend to lift the Griff and the Europa then you may get a way with less

I like the idea of having one of each....!

[Aussie John]

I have limited head height but have just enough room to store my griff and elan; I can't stand under it [6'3"] but use an office chair on wheels to skate around under which ever car I'm working on; this method works well for me. PS the locking problem as pointed out earlier does not apply to the 4 posters I have seen, they don't use meshed teeth and I let the pressure out of the hydraulics when storing and leave it on the mechanical locks.

Edited by Aussie John on Wednesday 17th July 15:31

[330p4]

Have Griff and Élan went 4 post no way would I lift the Lotus on a 2 post as you are lifting on fibreglass also if you are storing one on top don't like suspension in full droop for long periods
Ian