Smart Fourtwo based Kitcar Designs

[fuoriserie]

I've been doing some research on the Smart engine and the various kitcars that have been designed using the Smart Fourtwo as a single donor.

Here are a few that I've found very interesting,

The Bank Europa

http://www.banks-europa.co.uk/articles/kitcar_08/k...



The Smartrus Zonta



Michalak C7










Tha Smabug





The future of kitcars will follow mainstream car manufcaturing and downsizing engines will have to be considered and others are already ahead of the game in doing so( see the new entry level Caterham Seven with the Suzuki 660 3 cylinder engine coming very soon....)

With the Smart engine you have a very interesting engine package to work with, petrol, diesel and hybrid engines with the backing of Mercedes technology and tuners like Brabus if more power is needed.

You have the younger enthusiast that have been using Smart fourtwo's for more than 15yrs. now and I'm sure they're ready for a new kitcar using a Smart fourtwo as a single donor.


What do you all think? I can see some retro inspired kitcars using the smart engine, just look at how compact this package looks, ready to be installed in a new kitcar chassis project...

[migwell2]

Could u get away with no iva?

[qdos]

It's an interesting package which I've considered before but there's a lot of computer issues with Smarts and lots of variations too. Basically the electronics can be a bit too much for many to take on for a build yourself car using a Smart as a donor vehicle

[ugg10]

Worth having a look at what Jeremy philips has done with the MGF donor in the J15 (now called Vectis).

http://www.sylva.co.uk/j15.html

[FlossyThePig]

migwell2 said:

Could u get away with no iva?

It's a subframe not a chassis.

[Stuart Mills]

Smart's has a whole host of goodies that talk to each other such as the speedo to key and ECU to SAM unit. ABS sensors may see the car is out of control if wheel diameters are changed or the body tilt angle sensor may show a fault code causing the engine to shut down to low power (limp home mode) if it thinks the steering rack ratio has changed. There is also a steering wheel angle sensor that feeds the 5.1 ratio rack. Not easy to use an after market ecu either as the gearbox changes are done electronically. The difficulty seems to revolve around the electronic brake froce distribution system, great in a Smart but a potential nightmare as a donor. Can be overcome by using specialists to remap but MB try to keep tight control on this work. Even the clutch has a sensor that calls for a remap when the plate wears down a little. Use all of the Smart bits and it may work, leave a bit out or change something minor and it may bite.
I can see a C1 or Aygo unit being used in the future but the Smart route is not smart in my opinion. That said I still feel that kit cars are sold as they are generally fast not because they use less fuel. Gas guzzlers still have a major role to play in our specialist vehicle market. Even when fuel is £30 a gallon I plan to go for a one hour blast in a MEV monster powered by 6.0 litres.

[fuoriserie]

Stuart Mills said:

Smart's has a whole host of goodies that talk to each other such as the speedo to key and ECU to SAM unit. ABS sensors may see the car is out of control if wheel diameters are changed or the body tilt angle sensor may show a fault code causing the engine to shut down to low power (limp home mode) if it thinks the steering rack ratio has changed. There is also a steering wheel angle sensor that feeds the 5.1 ratio rack. Not easy to use an after market ecu either as the gearbox changes are done electronically. The difficulty seems to revolve around the electronic brake froce distribution system, great in a Smart but a potential nightmare as a donor. Can be overcome by using specialists to remap but MB try to keep tight control on this work. Even the clutch has a sensor that calls for a remap when the plate wears down a little. Use all of the Smart bits and it may work, leave a bit out or change something minor and it may bite.
I can see a C1 or Aygo unit being used in the future but the Smart route is not smart in my opinion. That said I still feel that kit cars are sold as they are generally fast not because they use less fuel. Gas guzzlers still have a major role to play in our specialist vehicle market. Even when fuel is £30 a gallon I plan to go for a one hour blast in a MEV monster powered by 6.0 litres.

I had the same info, through a Smart engineer I had met some time ago and agree with you that it's a bit complicated, but still doable as a turn key kit, but maybe a little too complicated as a Do it yourself build...

I like the C1 or Aygo engine and still think that it would make for an interesting single donor.

With reference to gas guzzlers, I tend to agree with you, but I still see about 70% of users who drive affordable kitcars and very few can afford the 6.0 litre engines and as much as I would like to have one myself..., I'm not sure that in 5-10yrs.time we will see more of these kits, but instead it will be more likely that we will have more 660cc Sevens than big block Cobra's or Gt40's.

Ecoboost 3cylinders might make for another interestig donor in 5yrs time...maybe.

[Toltec]

As much as I enjoy my Smart roadster if I was going to use it as a donor the engine and gearbox would not be the bits I would keep.

[ugg10]

Ecoboost are starting to become available but at a price - that said, I paid this for a 2.0L zetec in 2001 !

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FORD-FIESTA-MK9-2012-201...

Anyone thought about the Starlet/Glanza 4EFTE 1.3 T - 200Hp is quite possible and loads of tuner bits for this engine.

If you are looking to build a car based on a subframe then look at the Audi A4 - loads of engines and if you want economy then the 1.9TDI 130 is a good place to start, easily chipped to around 170. Inline transaxle in a mid engine config would be nice, something like in a Spire/Edge Devil. Always thought an Auto Union D type replicalalike would be intersting with an A8 v8 plus 2WD transaxle.

[renaultgeek]

Somebody should use a smart to build an alpine a110 replica, small, rear engined, expensive to buy an original, why not?

[qdos]

ugg10 said:

If you are looking to build a car based on a subframe then look at the Audi A4 - loads of engines and if you want economy then the 1.9TDI 130 is a good place to start, easily chipped to around 170. Inline transaxle in a mid engine config would be nice, something like in a Spire/Edge Devil. Always thought an Auto Union D type replicalalike would be intersting with an A8 v8 plus 2WD transaxle.

Here's one that was running at On Your Marks last weekend helped raise £1475 for charity with Autoadrenalin

[ugg10]

Nicec, the deronda is one of my favourite "kit" car, not cheap though. I think I would have to go for the US/Can import version that has a stretched rear end and a LS V8 in the back ! An update to the old Ferrari Shark nose F1 car, and well done at that.

[qdos]

ugg10 said:

Nicec, the deronda is one of my favourite "kit" car, not cheap though. I think I would have to go for the US/Can import version that has a stretched rear end and a LS V8 in the back ! An update to the old Ferrari Shark nose F1 car, and well done at that.

It's a lot simpler just to pop the Audi V8 in it. Or if you wanted to go to the insane try the Audi/Lambo V10. As with a lot of discussions on cars though we've started with a small economic engine and now wound up in the Supercar Paddock again. I think we ought to get back on topic and back to Smarts as donor vehicles for kits

Edited by qdos on Friday 16th August 21:12

[Steffan]

The comments from qdos, Stuart Mills and others clearly underline the inherent and very complex Smart electronic systems which mitigate against using this vehicle as a base for kit cars. Whilst I can see the initial appeal the reality of the extent of the inherent and unmovable electronic controls surely makes such a use very questionable on a cost basis.

There are in reality a plethora of base vehicles now available like the Peugeot/Citroen C1/107 etc with far less electronic complexity. The inbuilt obsolescence that is present in the ever increasing complexity of modern ECU systems and complex electronic hierarchy in today's injected cars will result in older cars being economically unsupportable in the future.

I have long argued that it will be the failing electronic systems that will render today's cars unusable rather than the old rust problem which has been eliminated in many modern vehicles. The Kit car builder is particularly lonely in his unaided efforts to bring together the various parts needed to function in unison. Adding to the problem by choosing units with the inherent complexity that the Smart car clearly incorporates strikes me as a non starter, interesting though such a unison would certainly be.

[fuoriserie]

Thanks for the comments and considerations....

I like the idea of using a subframe set-up for a modern mid-engine kitcar design and as much as i like the MGF, it is a very limited donor in mainland Europe to use as a single donor, the Smart has complex electronics, so maybe we should consider going back to the Mini...

I still believe that you don't need a lot of power to enjoy a kitcar and a light car with 50-100HP( the original Seven....) you can still have a lot of fun, but I do agree that simple electronics help the end user when building the kit.

I just wonder how long simple electronics will be available on modern donors to use in future kitcars or should we prepare ourselves for a more complex electronics being part of the next step that needs to be taken care by the kitcar industry? or maybe just choose a limited set of donors ?




Just a few more pictures of the Michalak chassis showing the loom and all the rest of the electronics....

Edited by fuoriserie on Sunday 18th August 09:29

[qdos]

I think Europe and the UK have slighltly different mixes of vehicles. The Mini was a good donor but it's now fetching high prices thanks to the affection it has in many a Brit's heart and has become a bit of a cult car now.

It's not an easy thing to do to pick upon any particular donor vehicle as no matter what you go for there will be a dozen people saying "You don't want to do that"

Personally I think a good way to look at things is to look at what the first time buyers are driving. Recently here in this part of the UK it was the Peugeot 106/ Citroen Saxo though I think the Nissan Micra is also worth looking at. Toyota Yaris too

Perhaps in Italy it may be the FIAT Panda? Cinquecento ?

[fuoriserie]

qdos said:

I think Europe and the UK have slighltly different mixes of vehicles. The Mini was a good donor but it's now fetching high prices thanks to the affection it has in many a Brit's heart and has become a bit of a cult car now.

It's not an easy thing to do to pick upon any particular donor vehicle as no matter what you go for there will be a dozen people saying "You don't want to do that"

Personally I think a good way to look at things is to look at what the first time buyers are driving. Recently here in this part of the UK it was the Peugeot 106/ Citroen Saxo though I think the Nissan Micra is also worth looking at. Toyota Yaris too

Perhaps in Italy it may be the FIAT Panda? Cinquecento ?

I agree with you.

In the past, first time buyers bought Fiat Panda, Fiat Cinquesceto/seicento, Peugeot 106, VW Polo, Ford Fiesta/KA.,Renault Clio, Nissan Micra

Today it's. Smart Fourtwo, Fiat 500, VW Polo, Ford Fiesta, Peugeot/Toyota,Citroen, Aygo/C1....


The others B sector hatchbacks are for the older crowd...

Edited by fuoriserie on Sunday 18th August 18:00

[ugg10]

Might be worth a look at the Blitz sand rails/off roaders as they are based arounf the fiat running gear in their basic form, their top of the range joyrider uses a saxo.

[annodomini2]

I thought the Smart's had a notoriety for munching engines?

Hence why so many bike engine conversions.

[Steffan]

annodomini2 said:

I thought the Smart's had a notoriety for munching engines?

Hence why so many bike engine conversions.

With modern complex highly developed engines maintenance has become critical to longevity in engines. I suspect many owners have not carried out the correct procedure meaning early failure of the engine. I believe IF MAINTAINED CORRECTLY the Smart engine is a reliable robust unit. The Bike conversions I have seen relate more to the exceptional performance produced by such a package than suspect engines IMO. A Bike engined Smart car is a real racers dream. However I would not be happy with the crash protection offered by the Smart car personally I have seen the consequences of serious collisions in a smart car. Not for me.