M25. Is there any point in it anymore?
Discussion
Cheib said:
I live in NW London and say for example if I am going to Stanstead Airport I could either go out on the A1 and round the M25 or go across London and up the M11.
There's no airport in Stanstead (Abbotts). Do you mean Stansted (Mountfitchet)? There was a sign at Liverpool St for years that had it wrong too.havoc said:
We need more road capacity. Have done for nearly 20 years.
Sadly, the muppets in power (Nu Labour first, now the current clueless bunch) keep parroting the (criminally inaccurate) mantra "if you build new roads it'll encourage more traffic"...
...all the while signing-off on a £50bn* pet-project rail line that'll benefit very few people outside of high-ranking businessmen and Public Sector mandarins who want to travel between London and B'ham/Manc. Wonder who's been promised lucrative consulting jobs for getting that one pushed through???
Virtually everyone independent acknowledges that:-
(a) road capacity is an investment-multiplier, as it makes everyone more efficent; and
(b) that £50bn would be far more effectively spent on numerous smaller road/rail/etc. programmes.
* Which is what HS2 WILL cost, by the time it's done...
I couldn't agree more. The Association of British Drivers (drivers lobby group)Sadly, the muppets in power (Nu Labour first, now the current clueless bunch) keep parroting the (criminally inaccurate) mantra "if you build new roads it'll encourage more traffic"...
...all the while signing-off on a £50bn* pet-project rail line that'll benefit very few people outside of high-ranking businessmen and Public Sector mandarins who want to travel between London and B'ham/Manc. Wonder who's been promised lucrative consulting jobs for getting that one pushed through???
Virtually everyone independent acknowledges that:-
(a) road capacity is an investment-multiplier, as it makes everyone more efficent; and
(b) that £50bn would be far more effectively spent on numerous smaller road/rail/etc. programmes.
* Which is what HS2 WILL cost, by the time it's done...
have been visiting fantasy land again and come up with this related idea
http://www.abd.org.uk/pr/286.htm
What with motorways costing £10 million a mile and all the NIMBYs,
it will never happen, but it's nice to dream.
Life without the M25 would be hell. I had to take someone to London yesterday and a 3 hour return journey took nearly 7 1/2 hours. I've never had much more than slowing for a few miles on the M25.
carl_w said:
There's no airport in Stanstead (Abbotts). Do you mean Stansted (Mountfitchet)? There was a sign at Liverpool St for years that had it wrong too.
I live near Stansted and that spelling/pronunciation error annoys me an irrational amount! Before the M25 it used to take us 2-3 hours of driving through Central London to reach Heathrow. Now it can take as little as 1 hour from Kent.
I think the problem is that there are too many junctions. Motorways seem to be an overflow for local roads when they should be about high speed transit over long distances.
I think the problem is that there are too many junctions. Motorways seem to be an overflow for local roads when they should be about high speed transit over long distances.
What is really needed is a few link motorways between the key spoke motorways a set distance out from the M25.
An awful lot of the traffic is not London centric but people trying to connect from their local motorway to another.
For example, there is a near motorway link between the M40 and the M4 by Marlow and this simple stretch of road opens a lot of options for people.
Obviously these roads already exist but are too low capacity and so people stick with the M25 option instead of dog legging over further out.
An awful lot of the traffic is not London centric but people trying to connect from their local motorway to another.
For example, there is a near motorway link between the M40 and the M4 by Marlow and this simple stretch of road opens a lot of options for people.
Obviously these roads already exist but are too low capacity and so people stick with the M25 option instead of dog legging over further out.
DonkeyApple said:
What is really needed is a few link motorways between the key spoke motorways a set distance out from the M25.
An awful lot of the traffic is not London centric but people trying to connect from their local motorway to another.
For example, there is a near motorway link between the M40 and the M4 by Marlow and this simple stretch of road opens a lot of options for people.
Obviously these roads already exist but are too low capacity and so people stick with the M25 option instead of dog legging over further out.
Even the A404 you mention can still get ridiculously congested at certain times during the day.An awful lot of the traffic is not London centric but people trying to connect from their local motorway to another.
For example, there is a near motorway link between the M40 and the M4 by Marlow and this simple stretch of road opens a lot of options for people.
Obviously these roads already exist but are too low capacity and so people stick with the M25 option instead of dog legging over further out.
Wills2 said:
wemorgan said:
fewer jobs in the S/E would help
Agreed the south is going to become a victim of its own success, migrate some jobs to the north Birmingham/Leeds/Newcastle etc... So those that seek access to power want to be close to it...
...so more and more jobs are created nearby.
...as are the majority of 'entertainment' services - Michelin Star restaurants, (proper) theatres, etc. etc. - I'll wager >50% of each are in the SE.
The N/S divide has been a big factor since Maggie emasculated the unions, and despite a high % of manufacturing being north of Oxford, it's not going to change. France has the same problem with Paris, the only difference being France has little more than 50% of the population density of the UK, so traffic is much less of a problem (Periphique excepted). But talk to any small businessman in rural France and they'll curse Paris more than we do London!
Dblue said:
Trust me the north circular is not more scenic. The M25 does an OK job most of the time. Yes it can be slow and accidents disrupt it quickly but its biggest hazard is the sheer unpredictability of it.
It can take twice as long for the same journey at the same time of day and that's very frustrating. But, the journey the OP talks about could easily have averaged 70 mph with little or no hold ups.
Fact is that all orbital motorway networks around major cities get horribly congested. The M60 in Manchester is much the same, the M6 through Birmingham, despite the relief toll road, likewise etc etc. The network around Paris is just a joke.
Curiously while we were in Italy, the ring road around Rome didn't present any issues at all to us, there again we were using it on Sundays getting to and from the airport....It can take twice as long for the same journey at the same time of day and that's very frustrating. But, the journey the OP talks about could easily have averaged 70 mph with little or no hold ups.
Fact is that all orbital motorway networks around major cities get horribly congested. The M60 in Manchester is much the same, the M6 through Birmingham, despite the relief toll road, likewise etc etc. The network around Paris is just a joke.
drivin_me_nuts said:
It needs a dedicated filter lane M40 northwards all the way from the Thames bridge up the hill to the junction.
That smaller filter lane needs to be AT LEAST 1 mile longer, if not 1.5 - 2. But that's just one problem.
The roundabout after Marlow and J8/9 are still terrible.
havoc said:
We need more road capacity. Have done for nearly 20 years.
Sadly, the muppets in power (Nu Labour first, now the current clueless bunch) keep parroting the (criminally inaccurate) mantra "if you build new roads it'll encourage more traffic"...
...all the while signing-off on a £50bn* pet-project rail line that'll benefit very few people outside of high-ranking businessmen and Public Sector mandarins who want to travel between London and B'ham/Manc. Wonder who's been promised lucrative consulting jobs for getting that one pushed through???
Virtually everyone independent acknowledges that:-
(a) road capacity is an investment-multiplier, as it makes everyone more efficent; and
(b) that £50bn would be far more effectively spent on numerous smaller road/rail/etc. programmes.
* Which is what HS2 WILL cost, by the time it's done...
80bn is the estimate. Sadly, the muppets in power (Nu Labour first, now the current clueless bunch) keep parroting the (criminally inaccurate) mantra "if you build new roads it'll encourage more traffic"...
...all the while signing-off on a £50bn* pet-project rail line that'll benefit very few people outside of high-ranking businessmen and Public Sector mandarins who want to travel between London and B'ham/Manc. Wonder who's been promised lucrative consulting jobs for getting that one pushed through???
Virtually everyone independent acknowledges that:-
(a) road capacity is an investment-multiplier, as it makes everyone more efficent; and
(b) that £50bn would be far more effectively spent on numerous smaller road/rail/etc. programmes.
* Which is what HS2 WILL cost, by the time it's done...
It would be smarter to find the point in Britain where non stop fast rail can get from all major English cities in under an hour and build the equivalent of Canary Wharf. An entirely new working city where the big firms can locate and draw labour from outside the SE without that labour needing to physically migrate as it currently does.
The other end of each city line then terminates at a massive car park where existing rail links can meet but primarily it is for people with cars who live around the city rather than in it.
It's the only way to start making England less London centric.
DonkeyApple said:
80bn is the estimate.
It would be smarter to find the point in Britain where non stop fast rail can get from all major English cities in under an hour and build the equivalent of Canary Wharf. An entirely new working city where the big firms can locate and draw labour from outside the SE without that labour needing to physically migrate as it currently does.
The other end of each city line then terminates at a massive car park where existing rail links can meet but primarily it is for people with cars who live around the city rather than in it.
It's the only way to start making England less London centric.
How??It would be smarter to find the point in Britain where non stop fast rail can get from all major English cities in under an hour and build the equivalent of Canary Wharf. An entirely new working city where the big firms can locate and draw labour from outside the SE without that labour needing to physically migrate as it currently does.
The other end of each city line then terminates at a massive car park where existing rail links can meet but primarily it is for people with cars who live around the city rather than in it.
It's the only way to start making England less London centric.
carl_w said:
Cheib said:
I live in NW London and say for example if I am going to Stanstead Airport I could either go out on the A1 and round the M25 or go across London and up the M11.
There's no airport in Stanstead (Abbotts). Do you mean Stansted (Mountfitchet)? There was a sign at Liverpool St for years that had it wrong too.Just a word of of advice if you're going to be pedantic make sure you're above criticism. I'd suggest you brush up on your grammar....
"There was a sign at Liverpool St for years that had it wrong too."
I am not sure how a sign can "have it" wrong? Did the sign make itself ?
Last time I checked a sign can't "have" anything.
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