Accounting jobs
Discussion
I'm half way through an accounting degree in Canada.
It looks like my circumstances might be changing requiring a move back to the UK at the end of my degree. I'd be moving back to the North East.
What are the job prospects for someone with a new degree? What sort of salary would be expected?
Some other details are that I'm around 40 years old and my previous career was that of an officer in the Royal Navy.
Thanks.
It looks like my circumstances might be changing requiring a move back to the UK at the end of my degree. I'd be moving back to the North East.
What are the job prospects for someone with a new degree? What sort of salary would be expected?
Some other details are that I'm around 40 years old and my previous career was that of an officer in the Royal Navy.
Thanks.
No, zero experience as yet. If I stay in Canada i'll be entering the CPA program here on completion of the degree. Thing is, accounting is stating to look like such a low paid job that I'm not sure it's worth it. I'm sure the senior jobs pay well, but the entry level stuff is so low that it won't support my family.
Back to the old days.
Once upon a time, trainee accountants (which is what you actually would be - despite having obtained a degree) were paid very low salaries. It was a form of apprenticeship - referred to as being "Under Articles". That was the way I trained in the 70s. I didn't start getting a decent wage until I had obtained my formal professional qualification - which took me four years.
Up until the late 1970s, not that many aspiring accountants bothered with any sort of degree. They went straight into articles after obtaining the equivalent of their A Levels.
In the 80s the way trainee accountants were recruited changed. The accounting institutes, particularly the Institute of Chartered Accountants, decided that only "degree standard" trainees would be considered good enough for their hallowed qualification. So in most cases it became a requirement to obtain a university degree BEFORE you could start practical on the job training. Of course, that meant these new style trainees were expecting much higher salaries than their "Articled Clerk" predecessors - even if, from a practical point of view, they were almost as clueless as old style Articled Clerks. Now they were expensive and clueless as opposed to being cheap and clueless.
They were also starting as trainees 4 to 5 years older than old style clerks - which, although indicated that they should be more mature as accounting students - actually meant no such thing. What it did mean, of course, was that it was harder for seniors to boss them around compared to a meek and mild 18 year old clerk. Which had both good and bad aspects.
Over the past few years, the accounting profession has re-examined the way in which it recruits trainees and we are seeing a return to a modern equivalent of the Articled Clerk. It just makes so much more sense to accounting firms to have cheap trainees rather than expensive trainees.
For the OP, I would suggest that he looks at ways of getting into the profession as a trainee that allows him to be hired on a "living" wage compared to "clerk" type apprenticeship wages. That may involve looking to "industry" rather than "practice". The fact is that, in the modern post economic crash world, having a degree is not an automatic key to a good salary.
Once upon a time, trainee accountants (which is what you actually would be - despite having obtained a degree) were paid very low salaries. It was a form of apprenticeship - referred to as being "Under Articles". That was the way I trained in the 70s. I didn't start getting a decent wage until I had obtained my formal professional qualification - which took me four years.
Up until the late 1970s, not that many aspiring accountants bothered with any sort of degree. They went straight into articles after obtaining the equivalent of their A Levels.
In the 80s the way trainee accountants were recruited changed. The accounting institutes, particularly the Institute of Chartered Accountants, decided that only "degree standard" trainees would be considered good enough for their hallowed qualification. So in most cases it became a requirement to obtain a university degree BEFORE you could start practical on the job training. Of course, that meant these new style trainees were expecting much higher salaries than their "Articled Clerk" predecessors - even if, from a practical point of view, they were almost as clueless as old style Articled Clerks. Now they were expensive and clueless as opposed to being cheap and clueless.
They were also starting as trainees 4 to 5 years older than old style clerks - which, although indicated that they should be more mature as accounting students - actually meant no such thing. What it did mean, of course, was that it was harder for seniors to boss them around compared to a meek and mild 18 year old clerk. Which had both good and bad aspects.
Over the past few years, the accounting profession has re-examined the way in which it recruits trainees and we are seeing a return to a modern equivalent of the Articled Clerk. It just makes so much more sense to accounting firms to have cheap trainees rather than expensive trainees.
For the OP, I would suggest that he looks at ways of getting into the profession as a trainee that allows him to be hired on a "living" wage compared to "clerk" type apprenticeship wages. That may involve looking to "industry" rather than "practice". The fact is that, in the modern post economic crash world, having a degree is not an automatic key to a good salary.
The Lordflashart said:
No, zero experience as yet. If I stay in Canada i'll be entering the CPA program here on completion of the degree. Thing is, accounting is stating to look like such a low paid job that I'm not sure it's worth it. I'm sure the senior jobs pay well, but the entry level stuff is so low that it won't support my family.
I'm afraid the "entry-level" stuff is similarly low paid in the UK. If somebody was doing an accounting degree (like yourself) in the UK I would tell them it was essential they get a 1st-class degree. This would give them an outside chance of getting on to a graduate Finance trainee scheme, either with one of the Big 4 or within Industry. Even then I think you'd struggle to get anything over £21k as a starting salary. If you were to get a 2:2 or less you would be starting at the same level as a junior finance clerk (so probably £15k or less). It's only when you get exams and experience under your belt that you can start climbing the ladder. I am really of the opinion that, for those looking to accountancy as a career, serving time getting a degree (accounting, business or otherwise) could be looked on now as a waste of three to five years.
All it seems to do is -
delay the point where you start earning
delay the point in time when you will be fully qualified
leave you with a legacy of student debt
I'm not really saying "don't bother with a degree", but I think that those who want to obtain professional accountancy qualifications might need to look at the alternative ways one can get into the profession that don't slow down your progress and don't leave you with any debt.
All it seems to do is -
delay the point where you start earning
delay the point in time when you will be fully qualified
leave you with a legacy of student debt
I'm not really saying "don't bother with a degree", but I think that those who want to obtain professional accountancy qualifications might need to look at the alternative ways one can get into the profession that don't slow down your progress and don't leave you with any debt.
sumo69 said:
I started my articles with a West End 5 partner firm as a graduate in 1985 - my starting salary was £4250!!!
David
My first annual salary was £600 (in 1976)David
I worked with a qualified chap who had started as an articled clerk in 1966. Back then, he had to PAY his principal (i.e. senior partner) a lump sum up front. His trainee wages were then paid back to him by the employer. In other words, he cost the firm precisely nothing during his training period (apart from sorting out his cock-ups and spending time instructing him etc).
How times have changed.
(This could be the basis of a comedy sketch).
Eric Mc said:
I'm not really saying "don't bother with a degree", but I think that those who want to obtain professional accountancy qualifications might need to look at the alternative ways one can get into the profession that don't slow down your progress and don't leave you with any debt.
I agree. I'm trying to push my son towards an accountancy apprenticeship once he's done his A-levels, ideally with the Big 4 or, failing that, with one of the mid-tier firms. That way he would do an accountancy degree which will also give him formal CCAB membership as well as paid employment whilst he's studying. Killing 3 birds with one stone.A relative of mine who graduated in 2012 with a 2:1 in Accountancy & Finance has spent the last 7 months working unpaid in a small accountancy practice whilst he completes the final stage of his (self funded) ACCA exams. I wasn't the brightest of students but I remember the days of paid study leave, paid exam fees, and salary increases on successful exam completion.
My daughter graduated last year with a 2:1 in law. She was fortunate to get a training contract with a small provincial firm, gets paid <£15k a year for circa 50 hours a week. Quite a few of her friends are in jobs which bear no relevance to their degrees. Paying £27k legal fees and ending up in a minimum-wage role - what's the point?
Yep - I think the education/training model that evolved over the past 30 odd years is no longer "fit for purpose" and something more akin to how old style trades and professions obtained their new blood has to be considered now.
In a funny way, it's a return to "Victorian Values" - in education at least.
In a funny way, it's a return to "Victorian Values" - in education at least.
Countdown said:
I agree. I'm trying to push my son towards an accountancy apprenticeship once he's done his A-levels, ideally with the Big 4 or, failing that, with one of the mid-tier firms. That way he would do an accountancy degree which will also give him formal CCAB membership as well as paid employment whilst he's studying. Killing 3 birds with one stone.
A relative of mine who graduated in 2012 with a 2:1 in Accountancy & Finance has spent the last 7 months working unpaid in a small accountancy practice whilst he completes the final stage of his (self funded) ACCA exams. I wasn't the brightest of students but I remember the days of paid study leave, paid exam fees, and salary increases on successful exam completion.
My daughter graduated last year with a 2:1 in law. She was fortunate to get a training contract with a small provincial firm, gets paid <£15k a year for circa 50 hours a week. Quite a few of her friends are in jobs which bear no relevance to their degrees. Paying £27k legal fees and ending up in a minimum-wage role - what's the point?
With something like law or accountancy you have to think long term. With most careers you might start off earning £20k a year, after 10 years you might get up towards£40k (or equivalent, depending on inflation). In Accountancy or Legal, you can start off on £15k but in ten years you could be earning closer to £50-£100k a year.A relative of mine who graduated in 2012 with a 2:1 in Accountancy & Finance has spent the last 7 months working unpaid in a small accountancy practice whilst he completes the final stage of his (self funded) ACCA exams. I wasn't the brightest of students but I remember the days of paid study leave, paid exam fees, and salary increases on successful exam completion.
My daughter graduated last year with a 2:1 in law. She was fortunate to get a training contract with a small provincial firm, gets paid <£15k a year for circa 50 hours a week. Quite a few of her friends are in jobs which bear no relevance to their degrees. Paying £27k legal fees and ending up in a minimum-wage role - what's the point?
Ali_D said:
Last time I spoke salaries with a big grad trainee they were on 28k. Admittedly that was about 5 years ago but recession or not i can't you believe that they'll have come down. In a small firm of course you are likely to get bugger all!
28k graduate starting salary is London Big 4. Regional Big 4 is more like £21k (still probably better off than their colleagues in London). Does go up relatively quickly in 3rd year of training and once qualified though.Worth looking into ex-military schemes - quite a few big firms have them.
As others have said a degree can only serve to delay the point until you qualify. However you can gain exemptions and sit more papers at a time. If there are any optional elements to your degree id bear this in mind.
Salaries for starters are pretty low £18-28k but often ramp up quickly to £40-50k once fully qualified. Although this is in the SE. Most of the accountancy bodies have salary surveys to give you some ideas.
Accountancy/Finance covers a multitude of sins and consequently wages vary quite a lot so pick your route and employer carefully.
With your background as a officer you might be better off trading on that and using your degree to demonstrate that you can apply those skills to business.
Edited remove wage info now OP has read it.
Salaries for starters are pretty low £18-28k but often ramp up quickly to £40-50k once fully qualified. Although this is in the SE. Most of the accountancy bodies have salary surveys to give you some ideas.
Accountancy/Finance covers a multitude of sins and consequently wages vary quite a lot so pick your route and employer carefully.
With your background as a officer you might be better off trading on that and using your degree to demonstrate that you can apply those skills to business.
Edited remove wage info now OP has read it.
Edited by waterwonder on Monday 16th September 21:28
If memory serves CIMA and CPA are linked so you should be able to convert to a UK recognised qualification as well.
Edit:
Almost right it's CMA from Canada
http://www.cimaglobal.com/Members/Fees-benefits-an...
Although CPA from Australia Is ok.
Edit:
Almost right it's CMA from Canada
http://www.cimaglobal.com/Members/Fees-benefits-an...
Although CPA from Australia Is ok.
Edited by waterwonder on Monday 16th September 21:37
The designations have just merged here so there is no CGA, CMA or CA anymore just CPA.
I'm sure at some point they'll figure out how it transfers over, but they haven't really figured out how the new destination will work.
Interesting point made about using the degree to demonstrate how my navy experience translates to business. That's a good idea.
I'm sure at some point they'll figure out how it transfers over, but they haven't really figured out how the new destination will work.
Interesting point made about using the degree to demonstrate how my navy experience translates to business. That's a good idea.
Without knowing the specifics of your job I'd guess you have a whole load of skills that your average grad or qualified bean counter won't. I'd also guess many are transferable.
I've a mate who is just leaving the army as an officer. He has project management and leadership skills that I'll not get chance to polish until I'm well into senior management position (quite some years away). The challenge is translating this into the business world which he knows feck all about.
I've a mate who is just leaving the army as an officer. He has project management and leadership skills that I'll not get chance to polish until I'm well into senior management position (quite some years away). The challenge is translating this into the business world which he knows feck all about.
I actually left the navy a few years ago and have managed a couple of businesses since then. I went into the degree to allow healing time after the injurys that caused my navy retirement got to the point that i needed extensive surgery.
So I have some business experience, just not accounting specific.
Hopefully a perspective employer will acknowledge the skills I acquired as a Naval Officer.
So I have some business experience, just not accounting specific.
Hopefully a perspective employer will acknowledge the skills I acquired as a Naval Officer.
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