Track day + no rear wing
Discussion
I did not purchase the factory wing and will get my own made, along with other stuff I still want to buy / make. I do have a factory splitter + cannards I had made.
Had anyone done a track day in an Ultima without a rear wing? I will be at Philip Island (Australia) and it's got some quite high speed corners (180kph+). I wanted to do a day pre-aero and then post-aero, so I know the improvement that's been had.
Just wanted to know what to expect if someones done a day sans-wing.
Had anyone done a track day in an Ultima without a rear wing? I will be at Philip Island (Australia) and it's got some quite high speed corners (180kph+). I wanted to do a day pre-aero and then post-aero, so I know the improvement that's been had.
Just wanted to know what to expect if someones done a day sans-wing.
AlexCim said:
I did not purchase the factory wing and will get my own made, along with other stuff I still want to buy / make. I do have a factory splitter + cannards I had made.
Had anyone done a track day in an Ultima without a rear wing? I will be at Philip Island (Australia) and it's got some quite high speed corners (180kph+). I wanted to do a day pre-aero and then post-aero, so I know the improvement that's been had.
Just wanted to know what to expect if someones done a day sans-wing.
Don't do it.Had anyone done a track day in an Ultima without a rear wing? I will be at Philip Island (Australia) and it's got some quite high speed corners (180kph+). I wanted to do a day pre-aero and then post-aero, so I know the improvement that's been had.
Just wanted to know what to expect if someones done a day sans-wing.
It won't be any fun pirouetting into the kitty litter or worse.
Take off the front aero (or fit a wing) if it's not too difficult and give yourself a chance to enjoy the car.
Be good to hear from someone with actual experience of track use without the rear wing - which may well be Ultima CH and F.C. - so hopefully no offence caused - but most of what I have heard about very high speed runs in an Ultima suggest a little bit of extra downforce on the front is a good thing.
Pedders said:
Be good to hear from someone with actual experience of track use without the rear wing - which may well be Ultima CH and F.C. - so hopefully no offence caused - but most of what I have heard about very high speed runs in an Ultima suggest a little bit of extra downforce on the front is a good thing.
Yes in a straight line, but in a bend at 180 Kph with a trailing throttle.... 
Errr ... no!
Without the wing it weaves above 140mph in a straight line, and on high speed corners the rear end has significantly less grip.
I thought the rear wing made little or no difference to grip levels ... until I took it off at bruntingthorpe proving ground ... never again.
Additionally it makes the grip in the wet comical - above 120mph the car sits down and grip is predictable, and below 120mph you are fighting to keep the rear in check.
Without the wing it weaves above 140mph in a straight line, and on high speed corners the rear end has significantly less grip.
I thought the rear wing made little or no difference to grip levels ... until I took it off at bruntingthorpe proving ground ... never again.
Additionally it makes the grip in the wet comical - above 120mph the car sits down and grip is predictable, and below 120mph you are fighting to keep the rear in check.
Pedders said:
Be good to hear from someone with actual experience of track use without the rear wing - which may well be Ultima CH and F.C. - so hopefully no offence caused - but most of what I have heard about very high speed runs in an Ultima suggest a little bit of extra downforce on the front is a good thing.
i took my wing off at an airfield in wales for a high speed run. At the time i had a splitter but no cannards, at 120 mph i nearly lost the car in a straight line as the car was very very unstable, and i wasnt even thinking of cornering.dont do it..
tjlees said:
Errr ... no!
Without the wing it weaves above 140mph in a straight line, and on high speed corners the rear end has significantly less grip.
I thought the rear wing made little or no difference to grip levels ... until I took it off at bruntingthorpe proving ground ... never again.
Additionally it makes the grip in the wet comical - above 120mph the car sits down and grip is predictable, and below 120mph you are fighting to keep the rear in check.
Interesting, what size splitter do you have and what ride height?Without the wing it weaves above 140mph in a straight line, and on high speed corners the rear end has significantly less grip.
I thought the rear wing made little or no difference to grip levels ... until I took it off at bruntingthorpe proving ground ... never again.
Additionally it makes the grip in the wet comical - above 120mph the car sits down and grip is predictable, and below 120mph you are fighting to keep the rear in check.
I haven't had any obvious problems in a straight line wingless, but thinking about it I can't remember what speed I was hitting.
F.C. said:
tjlees said:
Errr ... no!
Without the wing it weaves above 140mph in a straight line, and on high speed corners the rear end has significantly less grip.
I thought the rear wing made little or no difference to grip levels ... until I took it off at bruntingthorpe proving ground ... never again.
Additionally it makes the grip in the wet comical - above 120mph the car sits down and grip is predictable, and below 120mph you are fighting to keep the rear in check.
Interesting, what size splitter do you have and what ride height?Without the wing it weaves above 140mph in a straight line, and on high speed corners the rear end has significantly less grip.
I thought the rear wing made little or no difference to grip levels ... until I took it off at bruntingthorpe proving ground ... never again.
Additionally it makes the grip in the wet comical - above 120mph the car sits down and grip is predictable, and below 120mph you are fighting to keep the rear in check.
I haven't had any obvious problems in a straight line wingless, but thinking about it I can't remember what speed I was hitting.
The ride height:
Front 110mm
Rear 160mm
iirc the steering wasn't particular light at 140+, it just required significant input to keep it straight. Note with the rear wing on, the car is stable in a straight line until my gonads aren't big enough (>200mph)
I've had experience driving an Ultima Canam without a wing or splitter at Spa a few times. We had it up between 140 - 160 on Kemmel and Blanchimont with no trouble at all. I'm sure it would help to have a wing if you spent all your time on track, but it was certainly not a problem without.
The only time we have spun the car was at Snetterton on slow speed corners which would not have benefited from a wing.
Always thought that the view was that the wing was only really necessary at speeds in excess of 160?
The only time we have spun the car was at Snetterton on slow speed corners which would not have benefited from a wing.
Always thought that the view was that the wing was only really necessary at speeds in excess of 160?
macgtech said:
Not true - our wing, which is very similar to the factories (ours is slightly bigger) generates ~200kg of downforce at 100mph. A significant % of the car's weight!
Out of interest, what is the drag figure at 100mph ? And what about splitter/canards? 200lbs at 100, would I need to change springs and ride heights? canam-phil said:
Out of interest, what is the drag figure at 100mph ? And what about splitter/canards? 200lbs at 100, would I need to change springs and ride heights?
Downforce is ~200kg at 100mph - not lbs. And the lift:drag coefficient is around 5:1.The factory have a very similar rear wing (a bit smaller than ours, so the figures can be reduced by 10% or so as an estimate) so changing ride height etc shouldn't be necessary.
We have some rough idea about the splitter, which we have spent a lot of time tweaking to balance the rear wing, so its similar. Our splitter is attached to the chassis to take pressure off the clam fittings.
We also positioned the rear wing slightly forward than the standard position in order to 1. ensure compliance with most championships regarding wing overhang from bodywork and 2. to ensure that the centre or pressure is forward of the clam hinge, so the combined effect of downforce and drag shuts the clam rather than opens it.
can you stand on it as well?
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