Driven regularly is good : high mileage is bad..?

[V8 GMS]

I was pondering this and thought it could make a good topic for the forum:

My car is a 1992 (22 years old) Pre-cat Griff and has covered 86K, so that averages at less than 4,000 miles a year.

This seems low to me (on the basis its been well maintained and garaged for most of its life etc): but I get the feeling in TVR world this car may be labelled as high mileage.

I know 'condition' is king, but having a car labelled as 'high mileage' seems to contradict the popular opinion that TVRs benefit from being driven regularly!

Any thoughts?
Graham

[TVRJAS]

This confused me also..

On the 1st July this year I had booked my car (Chimaera) in for an m.o.t and was in the process of changing insurance so asked them to give the car a good look over and a valuation so I could pass on to insurance to obtain an agreed valuation.

In my black service book it says PDI & customer handover 19th May 1997 at 22 miles,when David Gerald gave the valuation the mileage was 53,165 so an average of 3,000 a year.

Although I was happy with the valuation because it was more than my outlay 12 months previous,i couldn't help but smile/frown when he said it would be worth more if the mileage was not so high

It really does seem to be fact that the more these cars are used the less niggles arise,but putting miles on them is considered to devalue them. Since 1st July 2013 I have covered almost 10k and the car has run perfectly and I love taking the car out but now have a niggling doubt at the back of my head that I shouldn't use it so often.

How are you supposed to win? Why is an average of 3k considered high on a TVR

[Colin RedGriff]

I think it is a bit odd. I think our cars are still considered modern and so the total mileage is a consideration more than how they have been cared for.

If you look at 'classic' cars then the total mileage is not as big a concern, it's expected to have covered a lot of miles because it's old.

Maybe it's because the designs still look fresh they are not considered old, even though the oldest Griff is over 20 years old

[V8 GMS]

Agree with the above:
I remember seeing an advert recently for a classic mini (a late 80's car I think) and it was advertising "low mileage" @ 93,000 miles (I don't think it was intended as irony)! I guess that would be about 4,000 miles per year also.

None of our cars are getting any younger (and I'd be amazed to find a TVR owner who would let the fear of mileage-based depreciation affect how much they're prepared to enjoy their toy), so perhaps mileage expectations in the TVR community will play catch up over the coming years?

I guess our insurance companies may have a different view. The car that never moves is the safest car...

[shake n bake]

Drive it, enjoy it and to hell with the value, I think most people who own the cars now probably realised a dream when they got there TVR, so use it as much as you want to!

[glow worm]

I think it depends if you are buying or selling

[Colin RedGriff]

shake n bake said:

Drive it, enjoy it and to hell with the value, I think most people who own the cars now probably realised a dream when they got there TVR, so use it as much as you want to!

That's certainly what I intend to do. I didn't buy mine as an investment. Sure it would be nice to make a bit of money if I have to sell it but I have no plan to do that.

[FlipFlopGriff]

1992 Griff, 250k miles. Used to be driven a lot bit less recently and more problems when it driven less. Pence per mile is extortionate now (problems every time its taken out) , probably acceptable when it did 30k per year.
Guaranteed value still above 25k so don't worry.
Mrs FFG drove the 500 daily for 7 years without real issue. More problems since its a 2nd car - they prefer being used.
FFG

[Englishman]

I treat mine to an annual service and typically do 4000 to 5000 miles a year, avoid the salt as much as possible but use all year round. Seems to keep them reliable

[lotus83]

if you are buying then you want one that has spent most of its life garaged not being used except the last owner has been driving it reglualarly, that way oyu get a low mileage car that has been frequently used recently.

[Goaty Bill 2]

lotus83 said:

if you are buying then you want one that has spent most of its life garaged not being used except the last owner has been driving it regularly, that way you get a low mileage car that has been frequently used recently.

That's probably about right.
For all of you that have owned or driven a new or near new car, you have to admit there is something special about it.
There is also something very special about an older, well used (and well cared for) classic and the associated patina of age, there is no doubt about that, but it is a very different type of special.

Mine averaged around 12k miles per year over the first six years of my custodianship, and I was always assured by the garage that it was more reliable and better off for it. I don't doubt it. She was as reliable as my new Volvo. Never missed a beat.
There are however two to three interesting(?) facts associated;
It was being fully serviced by a TVR garage at least twice a year during that time; on schedule (£1050 per annum).
It cost me a good £2.5k over and above servicing costs and it cost the extended warranty insurers at least that much again (plus tyres).
Even with all that care and attention lavished on her, she deteriorated.
Even though she lived the life of a well used garage queen, constantly washed and waxed and cleaned within an inch of her life, never put away wet, always heated through the winter.
Slowly and inexorably she got a bit tatty here and there.
There are parts of the old girl that today are down right scruffy.

About 18 months ago, while she was off the road, I was perusing the stock at a local dealership and there was a stunning Rosso Pearl 4.5 with 17k miles. Same model (aside from engine), features and age as mine.
I wouldn't part with mine for anything, it's a love affair that started the day we met, but I was envious as Hell looking at that near new car that had been lovingly stored and serviced for the last 14 years.
It was everything mine had been, and never could be again.
I took pictures so I could remind myself later of details that I had forgotten or nearly forgotten about exactly how one looked when new.

A lot of people would disagree, but if I were (God forbid) forced to replace mine, that is exactly what I would be searching for.
Even with all the annoyances and failures it would likely suffer for recent lack of use; I doubt it would cost me more (absolute catastrophes excluded), than mine did.
Look above; no man maths; near £11k of care costs over the first six years.
To be fair, mine was at the time, about as pristine as a well used example could be.

To put some other costs into perspective; that 450 was up for sale at £17.5k when I saw it.
In the year that I bought my 500, that same car with that mileage could easily have fetched £28k to £30k for the dealer. And it would have been considered 'high mileage' then of course

[The Surveyor]

I think this is always approached from the wrong angle. To most of us, our TVRs are a hobby, our big toys if you like. So like every other recreation, the more you do it, the more it's going to cost. If you have a TVR for the enjoyment of driving, then it's going to cover a higher mileage so it's going to depreciate more. If you lock it away in a garage under a cover, it'll depeciate less but you'll have had less enjoyment from it.

Fun costs I'm afraid but always buy a TVR on condition, not mileage.

[V8 GMS]

glow worm said:

I think it depends if you are buying or selling

Selling - if the price is right

[steve320ise]

Hmmmmmmm, so to conclude then, as we drive our cars we can just watch the £ fall off and at some point we can just give them away. what a load of xxxx!!!!**** this all comes about from people who want to make money from buying and selling and is driven from the euro box car market, whatever the dealers tell you the simple fact is "its worth what someone will pay" full bloody stop. I do feel better for that. Cheers

[pb450]

It is a sad and much debated FACT that higher mileage TVRs are worth less on re-sale. You may not agree with the logic (I certainly don't) as we all agree that a used example is more reliable than a garage queen. (there is huge evidence to support this) But at the end of the day the 'voting public' will still pay a premium for a low mileage example and will shy away from a high-miler. FACT.

All the stories are true that the well used example has had most (if not all) major components replaced, reparied or even fully restored - but that dreaded 100k barrier is a nemesis.

Now let's see, I've got 45k on mine (bought with a used but not abused mentality) so when do I need to stop driving it to retain the value? NEVER!!! (Fully refurbe'd chassis now which I s'pose counts for nowt as the miles pile on.)

[shorts!]

pb450 said:

- but that dreaded 100k barrier is a nemesis.

If there is a big 'dreaded 100k barrier' what does that mean for a car well past that? I think that depreciation per mile massively reduces at some point.
So using man maths perhaps more miles in a high mileage car 'cost' less than those same miles in a low mileage car.
If a (hypothetical) car (perhaps costing £40k new) is worth £25k at, say, 50k miles and £20k at 100k miles what is it worth at 200k?
Or 250K?
Depreciation free mileage by then I reckon.

[STE VR]

I purchased a 'tired' 95 400 Chimaera 8 years ago with 74k on the clock. After 8 years of loving ownership the car had everything it needed. Full respray, interior, engine rebuild, outriggers, brakes, upgraded everything. Basically everything new bar a chassis (which was fine). It was literally mint condition.

I put her up for sale expecting a very quick turnaround at a completely realistic price. However, she had just turned to 101k. Even standing there looking over the car with a fine toothcomb people couldn't fault it but the mileage just turned people off.

Here was a mint car with full service history and in stunning condition but only worth half that of a lesser car with half the mileage. That Chimaera will go on and on without requiring anything but normal servicing etc for the next 100k.

I didn't do the restoration for money, I done it because I loved every minute of it but it annoys me that a 20 year old car has to have <50k on it to deem it valuable when the truth is 90% of the low milers require major work.

Anyway, the lucky buyer who ended up with my car ended up with a superb car for little money all because he didn't give a st about some figures on an odometer. I hope he puts 30k a year on it as it will never drop any lower!!

[pb450]

I sympathise with you sir. My point entirely that the high-milers have usually had a lot of work and money spent on them. They also demonstrate ultimate reliability. High miles means they go.

There really is no logic to the low mileage car being a minter, just because it only has 15,000 miles and is 20 years old. It has a low mileage for a reason. Go figure.

And yet... the myth continues.

[AceOfHearts]

I sold mine a few years ago (but have since bought it back) and even though it was over 100k back then it still made quite strong money due to its condition. The car did end up in Belgium so maybe the overseas buyers that seem to be snapping up so many of our cars are less fussed about numbers on the odo.

I bought it back for the same money 3 years later and it is now over 110,000 miles

Buyers would also be turned off my Jag when I come to sell it as it is now over 170,000 miles but I would challenge them to find a more unmolested and truly rust free example. I looked at loads before getting this one and condition as always was key. Its funny as looking through the service history it did over 100k in the first 4 years of its life, and just over 70k in the next 20 years and was garaged through all that time and was just used as a second car.

I think the people that dismiss high milers don't know what they are missing out on

[pb450]

High milage but what not to like. Lots of work, new outriggers, etc and still not sold. (Not mine BTW or anyone I know.)

http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/t...

I rest my case.