HID or LED headlight retrofit.........RANT
Discussion
I just had a bit of a rant about HID conversions, and thought it might be useful here in the classic forum..........I feel much better now.
DO NOT FIT THESE.
I work in light,
The reflector (or headlight bowl) is designed for a particular lamp source, is the lamp source size, position, and photo metric output. Change any of these factors and you will alter the beam spread.
Whilst the HIDs maybe brighter on the retrofits, the reflectors and lenses are not designed for these, so the cut off angles are not there. The rules relating to the beam pattern of car headlights have been around for a while, are well documented, and developed for a reason.
The LED retrofits will be even worse, as they relly upon multi point source emission.
Don't be selfish and fit these just so that YOU can see better, you will be causing glare to other road users. Glare is as disabling as looking at the sun. Please don't do it.
it's an error to judge a beam pattern solely by its cutoff (which is all an MOT checks for) In many lamps, especially the projector types, the cutoff will remain the same regardless of what light source is behind it. Halogen bulb, HID capsule, cigarette lighter, firefly, hold it up to the sun—whatever. That's because of the way a projector lamp works. The cutoff is simply the projected image of a piece of metal running side-to-side behind the lens. Where the optics come in is in distributing the light under the cutoff. And, as with all other automotive lamps (and, in fact, all optical instruments), the optics are calculated based not just on where the light source is within the lamp (focal length) but also the specific photometric characteristics of the light source...which parts of it are brighter, which parts of it are darker, where the boundaries of the light source are, whether the boundaries are sharp or fuzzy, the shape of the light source, and so forth.
And to be honest These company's are so stupid as to offer these without doing proper investigation (polar curve and photometric tests........or a simple MOT) They even state on the website "very effective at moving traffic on the nurbergring"......... Well the reason for that is that you are glaring all the drivers in front, in their rear view mirrors, blinding them,so they would rather pull over than crash because of their stupid headlight conversion.
From an Car lover who works with light........don't.
If you want to improve things.......... here's my advice;
Make sure the reflectors are not flaking, pitted or rusted, you want to convert as much of the lamp lumens, to light output from the headlight.
Ignore lamp wattages, these are a measurement of power not light output (lumens or in the USA candelas). An aftermarket Chinese import 100watt rally grade light bulb, may have less lumens than a high quality lamp from a known manufacturer....... Like say Osram, Bosch, Philips, ring, hella (no I don't work for any of these).
Glass has a higher light output ratio than plastic, so a glass fronted headlight will covert more light than say a polycarbonate one.......... However... Modern reflector and lens designs and technology are way better than what was available when our 60's / 70's cars were new, so a modern polycarbonate headlight will be better than an origenal.
A conversion to H4 compatible headlight units would be a good idea, as there is more availability of very high quality and higher than standard output lamps available.
Bear in mind that the really high output H4 type lamps (eg osram night breaker), have a much shorter lifetime than standard h4 lamps, but this isn't a problem for me on classic cars, as they are not used as much as daily drivers. (The plus version of the above Osram lamp has gold contacts, which actually extends. He life).
Make sure the lamps are getting as much voltage as possible, install a relay to bypass all the headlight power from going through the column switch. And have a decent battery / alternator system.....look for 12.5+ volts on the lamp terminals.
You could change to higher colour temperature lamps 3000k plus, as the standard H1 lamps are very warm, this affects our photopic and scotopic vision, we see more detail and can react better, and some think need less light to see when using our colour cones, rather than our black and white rods (which operate at night, but have less resolution). However there is no point going above 4000kelvin, as lights above this colour temp range are purely for aesthetic, or to make people think you have HIDS.
Don't wear sunglasses at night.
Read the below;
Department for Transport
"In the Department's view it is not legal to sell or use after market HID lighting kits, for converting conventional Halogen headlamps to HID Xenon. If a customer wants to convert his vehicle to Xenon HID he must purchase completely new Xenon HID headlamps. The reason for this is that the existing lens and reflector are designed around a Halogen filament bulb, working to very precise tolerances. If one places an HID "burner" (bulb) in the headlamp, the beam pattern will not be correct, there will be glare in some places and not enough light in other places within the beam pattern.
The following is the legal rationale:
The Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations 1989 regulate the situation in the UK.
Under these Regulations, HID/Gas Discharge/Xenon headlamps are not mentioned and therefore they are not permitted according to the strict letter of the law.
However new vehicles have HID headlamps. This is because they comply to European type approval Regulations. The UK cannot refuse to register a vehicle with a European type approval. These are to ECE Regulation 98 (for the HID headlamps which are tested on a rig in a laboratory) and ECE Regulation 48 (Lighting Installation on the vehicle).
For the after market, a used vehicle cannot obtain type approval because it is only applicable for new vehicles. However we feel that saying "HID is banned in the after market" would not be reasonable. Instead we should make analogies with new vehicles. It would be reasonable to require HID in the after market to meet the same safety standards as on new vehicles. The same level of safety should apply.
Therefore a HID headlamp unit sold in the after market should:
1. be type approved to ECE Regulation 98 as a component.
2. when fitted to the vehicle should enable ECE Regulation 48 to be complied with (although no government inspection will take place).
3. Comply with RVLR as far as "use" is concerned.
In practice this means:
1. The headlamp unit (outer lens, reflector, bulb) shall be type approved to ECE 98 and be "e-marked" to demonstrate this. That can only be done by the headlamp supplier - Hella, Valeo etc. who must test the headlamp in an independent laboratory.
2. Once fitted to the vehicle it must have headlamp cleaning and self-levelling (which can be for the headlamp or can be in the vehicle suspension - some expensive estate cars have "self-levelling suspension" and that is adequate). Also the dipped beam must stay on with the main beam.
3. The headlamp must be maintained in good working order, kept clean, and aligned/adjusted correctly like any other headlamp.
Under the Road Traffic Act 1988 it is an offence to supply, fit or use vehicle parts which are not legal.
In summary it is not permitted to convert an existing halogen headlamp unit for use with HID bulbs. The entire headlamp unit must be replaced with one designed and approved for use with HID bulbs and it must be installed in accordance with the rules stated above."
UK Police Official Line
Yes these are illegal. The fine for having such modifications to a vehicle is up to £2500. However we do have some head room on this and for example some time this will be resolved as a fixed penalty if it is a first offence.
Please pull them off the market, unless you can sell them as a complete kit with lenses etc..... that comply to points 1/2/3 above.
Ps: I upgraded the lamps in the rear of my fuel and water temp gauges to LED versions, from the best manufacturer I know (called in a freebie favour), however they have made no difference (the poloar curve was all wrong.........too much light projected forwards, not sideways like the old filament lamp). The problems lies with how the light is distributed within the gauge.....so I need to ake them gauge apart and do more investigation.
DO NOT FIT THESE.
I work in light,
The reflector (or headlight bowl) is designed for a particular lamp source, is the lamp source size, position, and photo metric output. Change any of these factors and you will alter the beam spread.
Whilst the HIDs maybe brighter on the retrofits, the reflectors and lenses are not designed for these, so the cut off angles are not there. The rules relating to the beam pattern of car headlights have been around for a while, are well documented, and developed for a reason.
The LED retrofits will be even worse, as they relly upon multi point source emission.
Don't be selfish and fit these just so that YOU can see better, you will be causing glare to other road users. Glare is as disabling as looking at the sun. Please don't do it.
it's an error to judge a beam pattern solely by its cutoff (which is all an MOT checks for) In many lamps, especially the projector types, the cutoff will remain the same regardless of what light source is behind it. Halogen bulb, HID capsule, cigarette lighter, firefly, hold it up to the sun—whatever. That's because of the way a projector lamp works. The cutoff is simply the projected image of a piece of metal running side-to-side behind the lens. Where the optics come in is in distributing the light under the cutoff. And, as with all other automotive lamps (and, in fact, all optical instruments), the optics are calculated based not just on where the light source is within the lamp (focal length) but also the specific photometric characteristics of the light source...which parts of it are brighter, which parts of it are darker, where the boundaries of the light source are, whether the boundaries are sharp or fuzzy, the shape of the light source, and so forth.
And to be honest These company's are so stupid as to offer these without doing proper investigation (polar curve and photometric tests........or a simple MOT) They even state on the website "very effective at moving traffic on the nurbergring"......... Well the reason for that is that you are glaring all the drivers in front, in their rear view mirrors, blinding them,so they would rather pull over than crash because of their stupid headlight conversion.
From an Car lover who works with light........don't.
If you want to improve things.......... here's my advice;
Make sure the reflectors are not flaking, pitted or rusted, you want to convert as much of the lamp lumens, to light output from the headlight.
Ignore lamp wattages, these are a measurement of power not light output (lumens or in the USA candelas). An aftermarket Chinese import 100watt rally grade light bulb, may have less lumens than a high quality lamp from a known manufacturer....... Like say Osram, Bosch, Philips, ring, hella (no I don't work for any of these).
Glass has a higher light output ratio than plastic, so a glass fronted headlight will covert more light than say a polycarbonate one.......... However... Modern reflector and lens designs and technology are way better than what was available when our 60's / 70's cars were new, so a modern polycarbonate headlight will be better than an origenal.
A conversion to H4 compatible headlight units would be a good idea, as there is more availability of very high quality and higher than standard output lamps available.
Bear in mind that the really high output H4 type lamps (eg osram night breaker), have a much shorter lifetime than standard h4 lamps, but this isn't a problem for me on classic cars, as they are not used as much as daily drivers. (The plus version of the above Osram lamp has gold contacts, which actually extends. He life).
Make sure the lamps are getting as much voltage as possible, install a relay to bypass all the headlight power from going through the column switch. And have a decent battery / alternator system.....look for 12.5+ volts on the lamp terminals.
You could change to higher colour temperature lamps 3000k plus, as the standard H1 lamps are very warm, this affects our photopic and scotopic vision, we see more detail and can react better, and some think need less light to see when using our colour cones, rather than our black and white rods (which operate at night, but have less resolution). However there is no point going above 4000kelvin, as lights above this colour temp range are purely for aesthetic, or to make people think you have HIDS.
Don't wear sunglasses at night.
Read the below;
Department for Transport
"In the Department's view it is not legal to sell or use after market HID lighting kits, for converting conventional Halogen headlamps to HID Xenon. If a customer wants to convert his vehicle to Xenon HID he must purchase completely new Xenon HID headlamps. The reason for this is that the existing lens and reflector are designed around a Halogen filament bulb, working to very precise tolerances. If one places an HID "burner" (bulb) in the headlamp, the beam pattern will not be correct, there will be glare in some places and not enough light in other places within the beam pattern.
The following is the legal rationale:
The Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations 1989 regulate the situation in the UK.
Under these Regulations, HID/Gas Discharge/Xenon headlamps are not mentioned and therefore they are not permitted according to the strict letter of the law.
However new vehicles have HID headlamps. This is because they comply to European type approval Regulations. The UK cannot refuse to register a vehicle with a European type approval. These are to ECE Regulation 98 (for the HID headlamps which are tested on a rig in a laboratory) and ECE Regulation 48 (Lighting Installation on the vehicle).
For the after market, a used vehicle cannot obtain type approval because it is only applicable for new vehicles. However we feel that saying "HID is banned in the after market" would not be reasonable. Instead we should make analogies with new vehicles. It would be reasonable to require HID in the after market to meet the same safety standards as on new vehicles. The same level of safety should apply.
Therefore a HID headlamp unit sold in the after market should:
1. be type approved to ECE Regulation 98 as a component.
2. when fitted to the vehicle should enable ECE Regulation 48 to be complied with (although no government inspection will take place).
3. Comply with RVLR as far as "use" is concerned.
In practice this means:
1. The headlamp unit (outer lens, reflector, bulb) shall be type approved to ECE 98 and be "e-marked" to demonstrate this. That can only be done by the headlamp supplier - Hella, Valeo etc. who must test the headlamp in an independent laboratory.
2. Once fitted to the vehicle it must have headlamp cleaning and self-levelling (which can be for the headlamp or can be in the vehicle suspension - some expensive estate cars have "self-levelling suspension" and that is adequate). Also the dipped beam must stay on with the main beam.
3. The headlamp must be maintained in good working order, kept clean, and aligned/adjusted correctly like any other headlamp.
Under the Road Traffic Act 1988 it is an offence to supply, fit or use vehicle parts which are not legal.
In summary it is not permitted to convert an existing halogen headlamp unit for use with HID bulbs. The entire headlamp unit must be replaced with one designed and approved for use with HID bulbs and it must be installed in accordance with the rules stated above."
UK Police Official Line
Yes these are illegal. The fine for having such modifications to a vehicle is up to £2500. However we do have some head room on this and for example some time this will be resolved as a fixed penalty if it is a first offence.
Please pull them off the market, unless you can sell them as a complete kit with lenses etc..... that comply to points 1/2/3 above.
Ps: I upgraded the lamps in the rear of my fuel and water temp gauges to LED versions, from the best manufacturer I know (called in a freebie favour), however they have made no difference (the poloar curve was all wrong.........too much light projected forwards, not sideways like the old filament lamp). The problems lies with how the light is distributed within the gauge.....so I need to ake them gauge apart and do more investigation.
Edited by jamieandthemagic on Sunday 30th November 22:14
I'm not sure that 'glare' is only caused by older cars fitted with HID/LED lights, to be honest. If you drive an old, low-slung car, you get a face-full of retina-burning headlight from pretty much any modern car as they are so tall and the lights are so bright.
I had HID retro-fitted in my old TVR Cerbera, along with new reflectors and headlight glass, and I'm pretty sure I never dazzled anyone.
I had HID retro-fitted in my old TVR Cerbera, along with new reflectors and headlight glass, and I'm pretty sure I never dazzled anyone.
I don't understand why OEM HID lamps were allowed to be so much brighter than is possible with 55W OEM halogen lamps. Having a big disparity in the brightness of lights means that the people with less bright lights need their eyes to readjust to their car's lower level of illumination every time a brighter car passes the other way. It's no surprise that people then look to obtain lights of similar intensity for their own cars.
I think it's luck of the draw with retro fitting HID's.
I've had them in quite a few cars, some worked well, (and I often asked friends in front on runs if my lights were blinding) with a good beam pattern and cut off, causing no issues at MOT either.
Some didn't with the beam shooting off all over the place regardless, even with spacers to move the HID bulb in the unit, headlight adjustment and anything else I could think of.... in this case they were removed and standard high quality halogen lamp fitted.
I've had them in quite a few cars, some worked well, (and I often asked friends in front on runs if my lights were blinding) with a good beam pattern and cut off, causing no issues at MOT either.
Some didn't with the beam shooting off all over the place regardless, even with spacers to move the HID bulb in the unit, headlight adjustment and anything else I could think of.... in this case they were removed and standard high quality halogen lamp fitted.
im with the OP. although he does seem a bit obsessed with the matter, people are going to continue to buy HID's and stick them in their ten year old mondeos whether we like it or not unfortunately.
despite the hideous glare they throw out, they actually look crap - its a poor attempt to try and modernise an older car, or a car without xenons, by fitting these because they just don't look 'factory' what so ever. Some are so bright you cant actually see the shape of the headlight at night, its just a big bright blob haha.
I have less of a gripe where people fit HIDs to projector lights, wether aftermarket or standard..at least they don't scatter the beam all over the gaff as bad as a reflector housing would.
The other annoying factor is when people believe that the higher temperature of HID bulb the output isbetter... 4300k is OEM and yellowy white with a tinge of blue. There's plenty of cars around here with i assume 8-10k bulbs.. some are almost purple lol.
despite the hideous glare they throw out, they actually look crap - its a poor attempt to try and modernise an older car, or a car without xenons, by fitting these because they just don't look 'factory' what so ever. Some are so bright you cant actually see the shape of the headlight at night, its just a big bright blob haha.
I have less of a gripe where people fit HIDs to projector lights, wether aftermarket or standard..at least they don't scatter the beam all over the gaff as bad as a reflector housing would.
The other annoying factor is when people believe that the higher temperature of HID bulb the output isbetter... 4300k is OEM and yellowy white with a tinge of blue. There's plenty of cars around here with i assume 8-10k bulbs.. some are almost purple lol.
Edited by irfan1712 on Monday 1st December 15:34
There is probably a difference between someone slapping in the brightest most purple HID lights to their car to look 'cool/modern' compared to your average bearded classic car owner who just wants to see where they're going amongst the swarms of modern cars with their OTT searchlights. In intention if not execution, anyway.
Even brake lights on modern cars are blinding nowadays!
Even brake lights on modern cars are blinding nowadays!
Well I have used HID kits in many of my cars over the years... I read all the technical verbage, all the comments from the teeth suckers (ooohhh you cant do that!) so I tried some... and came to the conclusion they are OK...
Can I see better in the dark... yes I can
Do people flash me... no they don't
when my wife is following me, do they bother me? no.
is the beam as defined as ordinary bulbs... no, there is some light scatter... but it does not worry me or others
What's the risk of getting caught... minimal, and its a risk I am prepared to take
just to add, mine are correctly adjusted, and not coloured.
Can I see better in the dark... yes I can
Do people flash me... no they don't
when my wife is following me, do they bother me? no.
is the beam as defined as ordinary bulbs... no, there is some light scatter... but it does not worry me or others
What's the risk of getting caught... minimal, and its a risk I am prepared to take
just to add, mine are correctly adjusted, and not coloured.
buzzer said:
Well I have used HID kits in many of my cars over the years... I read all the technical verbage, all the comments from the teeth suckers (ooohhh you cant do that!) so I tried some... and came to the conclusion they are OK...
Can I see better in the dark... yes I can
Do people flash me... no they don't
when my wife is following me, do they bother me? no.
is the beam as defined as ordinary bulbs... no, there is some light scatter... but it does not worry me or others
What's the risk of getting caught... minimal, and its a risk I am prepared to take
just to add, mine are correctly adjusted, and not coloured.
Exactly my experience.. use 4500k kits, spend some time getting them adjusted... Can I see better in the dark... yes I can
Do people flash me... no they don't
when my wife is following me, do they bother me? no.
is the beam as defined as ordinary bulbs... no, there is some light scatter... but it does not worry me or others
What's the risk of getting caught... minimal, and its a risk I am prepared to take
just to add, mine are correctly adjusted, and not coloured.
Occasionally they just don't work well.. (my 2008 Transit is a good example)
I am with the Op here.
The HID`s are just not engineered to be good with earlier designed lamps, and the resulting light scatter is not good, either from the perspective of the lamp design, or the performance. They may look brighter but are so very inefficient.
I have also noticed the latest LED style headlamps do seem excessively bright to oncoming vehicles, and wonder how the manufacturers have managed to get these through the current lighting regs for vehicle manufacturers.
As an MOT AE I see many retro fit lamps that are outside the scope of the regulations and do fail the MOT !
The HID`s are just not engineered to be good with earlier designed lamps, and the resulting light scatter is not good, either from the perspective of the lamp design, or the performance. They may look brighter but are so very inefficient.
I have also noticed the latest LED style headlamps do seem excessively bright to oncoming vehicles, and wonder how the manufacturers have managed to get these through the current lighting regs for vehicle manufacturers.
As an MOT AE I see many retro fit lamps that are outside the scope of the regulations and do fail the MOT !
//j17 said:
I'm glad I'm not the only one who finds this! Some are so bright you can't look at them - which doesn't exactly make them safer!
I agree.I try to make a point by hanging back 20-30ft in stop start traffic.
what the hell happened to using a handbrake?.....and indicators come to that.
I have quad 5 3/4" sealed beams on my '68 Vette. Replaced the oem tungsten units with new reflectors and an upgrade to EU legal Zenon bulbs. These are fractionally higher wattage than replacement halogens would have been but well within capacity of lighting circuit. With an advertised 50% better light output they are good, very good - and at least the equal of most headlights on current cars and well up to the job of fast 'A' road drive outs. Are they as good as the HID's in my 'daily driver' - quite possibly.
garagewidow said:
//j17 said:
I'm glad I'm not the only one who finds this! Some are so bright you can't look at them - which doesn't exactly make them safer!
I agree.I try to make a point by hanging back 20-30ft in stop start traffic.
what the hell happened to using a handbrake?.....and indicators come to that.
Almost on topic!
Many Classic aftermarket parts suppliers offer copy "Lucas Tripod" type light units, current ones seem to be marked PL, presumably to avoid infringing the Lucas name. Many of these copies were truly awful, with poor definition of the patterns when compared with originals. They may "look nice" & be "original", but beware, they are only a pattern!
I eventually found a pair of NOS originals, dusty, but quite easy to clean out & they are SO much better- and take a Halogen bulb! I think Lucas used to market them as an aftermarket part as "Le Mans lights". Come back the Prince of Darkness! They did know what they were doing!
Many Classic aftermarket parts suppliers offer copy "Lucas Tripod" type light units, current ones seem to be marked PL, presumably to avoid infringing the Lucas name. Many of these copies were truly awful, with poor definition of the patterns when compared with originals. They may "look nice" & be "original", but beware, they are only a pattern!
I eventually found a pair of NOS originals, dusty, but quite easy to clean out & they are SO much better- and take a Halogen bulb! I think Lucas used to market them as an aftermarket part as "Le Mans lights". Come back the Prince of Darkness! They did know what they were doing!
chevy-stu said:
I think it's luck of the draw with retro fitting HID's.
Definitely. I have fitted HID kits to two completely different models of car, albeit both with projector headlights (IMO the only type which can "take" non-standard, non-designed, retro-fit HIDs).On one model (I have modified two of the same car) they were, no pun intended, night & day different over the originals and it would take points on my licence to make me rescind that mod (we still have two of this model of car, both converted).
On another, installing HIDs completely screwed the beam pattern and therefore the visibility the lights offered, so I put those back to standard. NB, as I said, both cars had projector-style lights. Just shows there is no hard & fast rule, IMO.
HeWhoDaresRoy said:
Even brake lights on modern cars are blinding nowadays!
Absolutely this. I stopped behind something with LED brake lights the other day and they were so bright that I had to drop my sun visor, the lights were seriously affecting my vision and it was utterly unnecessary for them to be so bright.Edited by CAPP0 on Wednesday 3rd December 09:13
buzzer said:
Well I have used HID kits in many of my cars over the years... I read all the technical verbage, all the comments from the teeth suckers (ooohhh you cant do that!) so I tried some... and came to the conclusion they are OK...
Can I see better in the dark... yes I can
Do people flash me... no they don't
when my wife is following me, do they bother me? no.
is the beam as defined as ordinary bulbs... no, there is some light scatter... but it does not worry me or others
What's the risk of getting caught... minimal, and its a risk I am prepared to take
just to add, mine are correctly adjusted, and not coloured.
Dazzle from HIDs and other poorly adjusted headlights is a big problem at night if you are an observant, careful driver who anticipates hazards. So unlikely to be a problem for most drivers.Can I see better in the dark... yes I can
Do people flash me... no they don't
when my wife is following me, do they bother me? no.
is the beam as defined as ordinary bulbs... no, there is some light scatter... but it does not worry me or others
What's the risk of getting caught... minimal, and its a risk I am prepared to take
just to add, mine are correctly adjusted, and not coloured.
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