RE: Speed thrills: PH Blog
Wednesday 3rd December 2014
Last week fellow motoring hack Owen Mildenhall was convicted of dangerous driving by a court in Inverness after hitting 127mph in a Porsche 911 on the A96. Going by the reaction in the local media the aggravating factors of being from south of the border, a sideline as a racing driver and driving a yellow Porsche were of far greater significance than the fact it was just shy of 1am but, however you cut it, Owen was never going to leave with his licence in his hands. And as a result has lost his job.
Don't go beyond second gear now...As you might expect the rights and wrongs have not escaped PH attention and a vigorous debate is chugging along already - join it here should you wish.
A speed limit about to be left behind, yesterdayBut as fast cars get ever faster and the chasm between their area of competence and legal limit on the road gets ever wider how do we convey in words, pictures or video a sincere sense of the excitement in driving them? How, as an owner, can you really expect to get any enjoyment out of a car that, like the Porsche Cayman GTS we had in the other day, will hit 85mph in second gear?
Save it for the track? Fine in principle...Maybe there's something we can learn from our two-wheeled brethren. After all, they've long since contended with machines whose abilities far, far outstrip the legal limit on any public road, a certain island in the Irish Sea excepted. True, on a bike you're as much exposed to the very real physical peril as you are isolated from it by modern cars. But there must be a trick to enjoying a machine that can double or even treble posted limits in the blink of an eye without necessarily doing so at every given opportunity. Bikers, we need your help.
Speed thrills: PH Blog
As a journo loses his job over a speeding offence what hope for future representation of fast cars?
Don't go beyond second gear now...
This discussion has inevitably spread among those of us in the business too, 'there but for the grace of' little comfort given the wider implications. Implications that extend to both the consumers and producers of media concerning the enjoyment of fast cars.
Outside of his friends and colleagues I realise there's unlikely to be much sympathy for Owen's situation - motoring hack gets busted in a Porsche press car, boohoo and all that. Clearly we all have to operate within the law and driving in such a way that it endangers others cannot be condoned.
A speed limit about to be left behind, yesterday
Obviously I only know that because I worked it out from the gear ratios published on the spec sheet... But is that really the way we want our cars assessed? While a degree of artifice can be achieved with talented photographers, sharply edited footage and a creative turn of phrase there is still no substitute for a properly crossed-up, fully-lit cornering shot.
The obvious response is to say 'save it for the track' and, for sure, if you're going to go the whole Harris and do fourth-gear sideways stuff in an F12 it's the only practical and sensible solution. But if fast cars are only tested, filmed and photographed at maximum attack on a circuit does it not just feed the fantasy and ignore the reality of what they're like on the public road, the environment in which most of us will experience them?
Save it for the track? Fine in principle...
It's that or writing about nothing more powerful than an MX-5. And even as a Mazda fanboy I'm not about to advocate that.
Dan
[Source: Press And Journal]
Discussion
Sorry but I have to disagree with your last point. Human beings by nature will always attempt to improve on previous efforts no matter what the situation or product. If we applied your thinking to computing, mobile phones, the internet, medical products etc, we'd all be a LOT worse off than we are.
gforceg said:
Maybe the pendulum has swung as far as it can and we'll see a return to lighter smaller more agile and less grippy performance cars being attractive to those who can afford them. Maybe not.
I do think the arms race should have run its course by now.
It's not all down to the manufacturers though. If one OEM releases a new version of an engine which has the same performance as the old one and another OEM releases one that has another 10/20 whatever hp more than the old one (and thus more than the other OEM) then there is a significant wedge of people who would go and buy the one with more performance, assuming it isn't going to cost them a vast amount more.I do think the arms race should have run its course by now.
It's a pretty nasty cycle, the only way to break it would be for everyone to agree a cap as the Japanese did throughout the 90s. Even the German top speed cap is falling by the way side now. Trying to get a large group of manufacturers to agree anything is like herding cats. Having been loosely on the sidelines of the recent negotiations around new drive cycles for the global market between OEMs and certain markets, it's alarming how difficult it is to get anyone to agree on anything.
gforceg said:
Maybe the pendulum has swung as far as it can and we'll see a return to lighter smaller more agile and less grippy performance cars being attractive to those who can afford them. Maybe not.
I do think the arms race should have run its course by now.
Given the limited success of the GT86 I think willy waving is still more popular than fun. Shame.I do think the arms race should have run its course by now.
mrclav said:
Sorry but I have to disagree with your last point. Human beings by nature will always attempt to improve on previous efforts no matter what the situation or product. If we applied your thinking to computing, mobile phones, the internet, medical products etc, we'd all be a LOT worse off than we are.
I appreciate your argument but the examples you give are useful. Clearly 800bhp in a road car isn't (very often!).mrclav said:
Sorry but I have to disagree with your last point. Human beings by nature will always attempt to improve on previous efforts no matter what the situation or product. If we applied your thinking to computing, mobile phones, the internet, medical products etc, we'd all be a LOT worse off than we are.
The target for improvement doesn't have to be speed though, does it?Captain Muppet said:
The target for improvement doesn't have to be speed though, does it?
No, but it is one of the cheapest things to go for. Squeezing a little extra juice out of an engine is a lot cheaper and easier than shedding a couple of hundred kgs and re-engineering a chassis.gforceg said:
mrclav said:
Sorry but I have to disagree with your last point. Human beings by nature will always attempt to improve on previous efforts no matter what the situation or product. If we applied your thinking to computing, mobile phones, the internet, medical products etc, we'd all be a LOT worse off than we are.
I appreciate your argument but the examples you give are useful. Clearly 800bhp in a road car isn't (very often!).Captain Muppet said:
mrclav said:
Sorry but I have to disagree with your last point. Human beings by nature will always attempt to improve on previous efforts no matter what the situation or product. If we applied your thinking to computing, mobile phones, the internet, medical products etc, we'd all be a LOT worse off than we are.
The target for improvement doesn't have to be speed though, does it?"there is still no substitute for a properly crossed-up, fully-lit cornering shot."
That there is the problem in a nutshell. Every motoring magazine has now perpetuated that unless you can get this sort of shot then there's no point in doing a report.
No-one, and I mean no-one, can get anywhere near a modern supercar or hypercar limit on the road and be safe with the amount of hazards that are around nowadays. At one time in the past, maybe, but not today with the amount of traffic, idiots in & out of cars, and everything else going on. Cars are now seemingly sold on headline numbers for bragging rights down the pub (or at the bar at Goodwood/Silverstone/Ascot...you get the picture) and 99% of drivers can't get near to the limits of a standard car on the road without causing danger.
I love fast cars, love the noise etc. but I know I cannot get anywhere near their limits on the road so subsequently I do not try. I am not saying that I don't push on every now and again but not in a manner that tries to exploit the limits of handling (well, except in my wife's 1.0l Corsa which can be thrashed everywhere). I go to a track for that.
The problem for me is that it all boils down to common sense, as to when & where this type of driving is acceptable, and the majority of the population do not have enough of it.
That there is the problem in a nutshell. Every motoring magazine has now perpetuated that unless you can get this sort of shot then there's no point in doing a report.
No-one, and I mean no-one, can get anywhere near a modern supercar or hypercar limit on the road and be safe with the amount of hazards that are around nowadays. At one time in the past, maybe, but not today with the amount of traffic, idiots in & out of cars, and everything else going on. Cars are now seemingly sold on headline numbers for bragging rights down the pub (or at the bar at Goodwood/Silverstone/Ascot...you get the picture) and 99% of drivers can't get near to the limits of a standard car on the road without causing danger.
I love fast cars, love the noise etc. but I know I cannot get anywhere near their limits on the road so subsequently I do not try. I am not saying that I don't push on every now and again but not in a manner that tries to exploit the limits of handling (well, except in my wife's 1.0l Corsa which can be thrashed everywhere). I go to a track for that.
The problem for me is that it all boils down to common sense, as to when & where this type of driving is acceptable, and the majority of the population do not have enough of it.
Perhaps you should review them as they are likely to be used in the real world - very few people will be driving them in such a manner.
In other words, how easy is a 911 to drive in stop-start traffic on the A34. How does the Cayman handle NVH on the concrete sections of the M25, that sort of thing. You could split up the review and have a section for track performance which is the only place you can really gauge the true out and out performance of even the most modest of these machines.
In other words, how easy is a 911 to drive in stop-start traffic on the A34. How does the Cayman handle NVH on the concrete sections of the M25, that sort of thing. You could split up the review and have a section for track performance which is the only place you can really gauge the true out and out performance of even the most modest of these machines.
mrclav said:
Progress is progress.
& here is the crux of the matter. Is going faster actually progress? Going faster for road cars is easy (relatively speaking). Speed at the levels of Land Speed Record runs are pushing the boundaries and are progress. Getting to 170/180/190/200+mph in a road car is not.Pushing more power out of smaller engines, whilst trying to burn less fuel is progress - that is engineering development on a large scale. So keep the power the same, shrink the engine, make the car lighter and it'll be much more fun than making it bigger & heavier with more power.
I do not really find modern cars on the whole to be progress. Heavier, bigger, more things to go wrong, less involving - all the antithesis to progress as far as I am concerned.
stavers said:
Getting to 170/180/190/200+mph in a road car is not.
Again, who are you to decide that? Boundaries are boundaries regardless of whether it's 1000mph in a Land Speed record car or 200mph in a road car.One side effect of developing a road car that can do these speeds time and again reliably is going to be better, more durable parts - for example tyres. Do you think that we would be able to enjoy the less noisy, more efficient, better performing in both wet and dry conditions, shorter stopping distances and longer lasting benefits of current tyre tech if durability at speed wasn't a factor?
Edited by mrclav on Wednesday 3rd December 11:21
Bikers won't help you. They are just as likely to lose their licenses for doing what they do on a public road, if not more so. "Agh evil biker does speeds of over 80mph on the PUBLIC ROAD. He should be hung, drawn, quartered and shot etc..." How many times have you heard that sort of thing in newspapers?
There but for the grace - very well put.
I know of few people who wouldn't succumb to the temptation to do something similar. And that's people in a car not engineered for the Autobahn, and without racing experience. But I won't invoke Lord Hewart.
Journos need to do silly things on public roads, with an ounce of common sense (and maybe a spotter for drifts). I don't read PH, or buy Evo for a rundown of stats between a GTR and a 911 Turbo, I buy it for a well-written description of a cross-continental blast in an unattainably-expensive super car where speed and caution are thrown to the wind.
Let's keep the speed.
I know of few people who wouldn't succumb to the temptation to do something similar. And that's people in a car not engineered for the Autobahn, and without racing experience. But I won't invoke Lord Hewart.
Journos need to do silly things on public roads, with an ounce of common sense (and maybe a spotter for drifts). I don't read PH, or buy Evo for a rundown of stats between a GTR and a 911 Turbo, I buy it for a well-written description of a cross-continental blast in an unattainably-expensive super car where speed and caution are thrown to the wind.
Let's keep the speed.
Nick Young said:
Perhaps you should review them as they are likely to be used in the real world - very few people will be driving them in such a manner.
In other words, how easy is a 911 to drive in stop-start traffic on the A34. How does the Cayman handle NVH on the concrete sections of the M25, that sort of thing. You could split up the review and have a section for track performance which is the only place you can really gauge the true out and out performance of even the most modest of these machines.
This is pretty much what I thought after reading the article.In other words, how easy is a 911 to drive in stop-start traffic on the A34. How does the Cayman handle NVH on the concrete sections of the M25, that sort of thing. You could split up the review and have a section for track performance which is the only place you can really gauge the true out and out performance of even the most modest of these machines.
Article said:
The obvious response is to say 'save it for the track' and, for sure, if you're going to go the whole Harris and do fourth-gear sideways stuff in an F12 it's the only practical and sensible solution.
In this case, he was travelling up from Kent to test a BMW, so the offence did not occur during a shoot, as the article seems to suggest. His time, his assessment of risk, his error.The question is whether an article should feature public road hooning, and surely there are ways and means to achieve this legally? Closed roads, private roads, overseas driving spring to mind immediately. Certainly I would not like to see each and every car magazine turn into 'What Car?', and analyse glove box dimensions and rear headroom as a preference to handling and performance; but it's surely not beyond the wit of man to provide a decent road test without exceeding limits so dramatically?
After all, it's what we should be doing all the time, anyway.
Journalists should do like the rest of the mortals: Find a nice empty road where you know you can thrash a car to its limits because the nearest police station is tens of miles away and radars dont make sense due to the low traffic volume. Learn it until you can drive through it with your eyes closed and then go and compare cars on it. It couldnt be easier. Legal speed limits will always be broken, because we can, and doing so implies a risk of crashing or getting caught, but aint that half of the fun?
You can only test acceleration or max speed on special tracks but journalist already have access to them, so what are you all crying about? I can loose my license almost every time I use my cars, but I still have all my points, because I know where and when I can break the limits with confidence that I wont kill anybody or I will end up in jail, is called experience, maybe thats what you are missing.
Thousands of people loose their licenses every single day and nobody says anything, but one of you looses his while getting payed for it and the whining reaches the sky, doesnt seem fair at all. Shut up, listen and learn, thats my advice.
You can only test acceleration or max speed on special tracks but journalist already have access to them, so what are you all crying about? I can loose my license almost every time I use my cars, but I still have all my points, because I know where and when I can break the limits with confidence that I wont kill anybody or I will end up in jail, is called experience, maybe thats what you are missing.
Thousands of people loose their licenses every single day and nobody says anything, but one of you looses his while getting payed for it and the whining reaches the sky, doesnt seem fair at all. Shut up, listen and learn, thats my advice.
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