Power - they are overtaking us
Discussion
Is it me or are all the major manufacturers putting us in the shade when it comes to power output these days. I may have had this rant before, so ignore me if you wish.
No longer is it enough for the 'average' supercar to have 600hp. Many are now knocking on for 700.
Hyper cars now see 1000hp as the target and there are a few with 900+hp. They use various means to get there and lots of electronics to control that power.
They are also working very hard to lose weight, also eroding our trump card.
Then there are their quick shifting transmissions......
How can an Ultima regain the high ground.
In my opinion more dieting is the best route as I can't see self builders being able to compete on the electric motor power gap filling hybrid technology.
So, how do we save that weight?
The chassis is strong but not light. Challenge No1
The body is high quality, but could be lighter if made of carbon.
The same with the seats.
The wheels are another area of weight loss. If the whole car was lighter they could also be narrower (lighter still).
My car is not intended to be a stripped out race car. But neither are most of the current crop of supercars/hyper cars.
In my opinion the weight loss route is where the Factory could be looking to upgrade their product. I would love to know what the weight saving from doing a carbon body would be and the cost implications.
Am I alone in this thought process and would the Factory agree that this route would make the most sense.
Paul
PS. I know that I could make quite a difference in my own case if I lost 25kgs, before anybody else points it out!
No longer is it enough for the 'average' supercar to have 600hp. Many are now knocking on for 700.
Hyper cars now see 1000hp as the target and there are a few with 900+hp. They use various means to get there and lots of electronics to control that power.
They are also working very hard to lose weight, also eroding our trump card.
Then there are their quick shifting transmissions......
How can an Ultima regain the high ground.
In my opinion more dieting is the best route as I can't see self builders being able to compete on the electric motor power gap filling hybrid technology.
So, how do we save that weight?
The chassis is strong but not light. Challenge No1
The body is high quality, but could be lighter if made of carbon.
The same with the seats.
The wheels are another area of weight loss. If the whole car was lighter they could also be narrower (lighter still).
My car is not intended to be a stripped out race car. But neither are most of the current crop of supercars/hyper cars.
In my opinion the weight loss route is where the Factory could be looking to upgrade their product. I would love to know what the weight saving from doing a carbon body would be and the cost implications.
Am I alone in this thought process and would the Factory agree that this route would make the most sense.
Paul
PS. I know that I could make quite a difference in my own case if I lost 25kgs, before anybody else points it out!
Hypercars will have to go a long way to get near the power to weight ratio of an Ultima for the price. Mine on the scales with fluid and two full tanks of petrol was 975kg and combine that with a AS engine upto 1000bhp and, IMHO, you have great bangs for your bucks car - no road legal hypercar has beaten the factory's ultima 720 GTR on the topgear track.
The fact that the factory and other commercial builders such as AB are at full chat shows how much demand there is for Ultima across the globe.
The main issue for me is that supercars are soo dull to drive in comparison - the Ultima in standard build, has no abs, no traction control, no power steering and is manual - it is pure as they come, but still very rapid in the right hands. On the road and track they are a great challenge and great satisfaction when you get it right. Modern cars with their flappy paddles, 4wd drive, rear wheel steer, brake vectoring, abs, electric steering etc lack feedback and feel, fail to invoke the 5 senses in anyway near the same way as an Ultima.
At the end of a spirited run in my Ultima, where I've got the gear changes and braking points right, i've pushed the grip has far as I dare and l've held my nerve on full acceleration the emotion buzz is unbelievable
The fact that the factory and other commercial builders such as AB are at full chat shows how much demand there is for Ultima across the globe.
The main issue for me is that supercars are soo dull to drive in comparison - the Ultima in standard build, has no abs, no traction control, no power steering and is manual - it is pure as they come, but still very rapid in the right hands. On the road and track they are a great challenge and great satisfaction when you get it right. Modern cars with their flappy paddles, 4wd drive, rear wheel steer, brake vectoring, abs, electric steering etc lack feedback and feel, fail to invoke the 5 senses in anyway near the same way as an Ultima.
At the end of a spirited run in my Ultima, where I've got the gear changes and braking points right, i've pushed the grip has far as I dare and l've held my nerve on full acceleration the emotion buzz is unbelievable
Paul, interesting topic.
I can’t help with all the answers but will where I can. In June of last year, myself and 9 other bought some GT40 molds that were on ebay. Since then we have been working hard to get the 10 bodies we require for the group out of them. The molds are not up to the standard of the ultima finish, and I will have significant body work to do I imagine.
We have engaged a local contractor to produce the body’s, they have significant experience in this area, we are currently mid-way through body’s 3 & 4.
Last week they showed me a carbon rear clip for another client, which they completed using his mold, not ours. They said that the all up weight of the GT40 body (with gel coat, 3 layers of 450g chopped strand matt ie “CSM” and some core matt) was around the 100kg mark when measured using the corner scales. The rear clip that they had completed for the customer was constructed as follows - gel coat, 1 thin layer of 450g CSM, then 2 layers of 250gram carbon twill. They had still used core mat for some reason as per the glass body. The weight of this part was approximately half the weight of the fibre glass rear clip and estimate that and entire body could be around 50kg. this was all hand laid, not vacuum bagged. The gel coat and CSM was used due to the mold quality. Cost due to the extra labour was 2.5 times the cost of the glass body.
I’m trying to work out if I should go ahead with carbon.
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
I think you may have answered my question.
hope that helps. Send me a PM if you want further details.
Regards Ryan
I can’t help with all the answers but will where I can. In June of last year, myself and 9 other bought some GT40 molds that were on ebay. Since then we have been working hard to get the 10 bodies we require for the group out of them. The molds are not up to the standard of the ultima finish, and I will have significant body work to do I imagine.
We have engaged a local contractor to produce the body’s, they have significant experience in this area, we are currently mid-way through body’s 3 & 4.
Last week they showed me a carbon rear clip for another client, which they completed using his mold, not ours. They said that the all up weight of the GT40 body (with gel coat, 3 layers of 450g chopped strand matt ie “CSM” and some core matt) was around the 100kg mark when measured using the corner scales. The rear clip that they had completed for the customer was constructed as follows - gel coat, 1 thin layer of 450g CSM, then 2 layers of 250gram carbon twill. They had still used core mat for some reason as per the glass body. The weight of this part was approximately half the weight of the fibre glass rear clip and estimate that and entire body could be around 50kg. this was all hand laid, not vacuum bagged. The gel coat and CSM was used due to the mold quality. Cost due to the extra labour was 2.5 times the cost of the glass body.
I’m trying to work out if I should go ahead with carbon.
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
I think you may have answered my question.
hope that helps. Send me a PM if you want further details.
Regards Ryan
The biggest improvement you could make would be with the gearbox, those quick shifting 7 and 8 speed boxes make a massive difference to straight line and track performance.
Losing 50kg in an Ultima would make little difference, main manufacturers are trying to lose weight on their cars, but they're still "heavy". 488 is apparently 1370kg. Knowing how Ferrari massage weight figures more than weight watchers, what's tge betting that's going to turn into 1450kg at least wet.
Don't forget as well that the prices are going up from junior supercars upwards. The 488 is a £200k+ car without many "essential" options, Macca is now a £200k car, again without essential options.
The biggest thing for me is anyone can get in these modern supercars and drive very fast, the electronics and gearboxes make huge differences to the useable performance and that's simply an area that we or other kit cars cannot compete with. Closest we can get is a quick shifting sequential and TC. But then it's starting to miss the point.
A 488 will probably lap circuits faster than a Lola T70, but what would you rather drive?
Losing 50kg in an Ultima would make little difference, main manufacturers are trying to lose weight on their cars, but they're still "heavy". 488 is apparently 1370kg. Knowing how Ferrari massage weight figures more than weight watchers, what's tge betting that's going to turn into 1450kg at least wet.
Don't forget as well that the prices are going up from junior supercars upwards. The 488 is a £200k+ car without many "essential" options, Macca is now a £200k car, again without essential options.
The biggest thing for me is anyone can get in these modern supercars and drive very fast, the electronics and gearboxes make huge differences to the useable performance and that's simply an area that we or other kit cars cannot compete with. Closest we can get is a quick shifting sequential and TC. But then it's starting to miss the point.
A 488 will probably lap circuits faster than a Lola T70, but what would you rather drive?
Storer said:
How can an Ultima regain the high ground.
would the Factory agree that this route would make the most sense.
Paul
The Ultima still has the high ground.would the Factory agree that this route would make the most sense.
Paul
918 1640kg's €800,00
Macca P1 1395 Kg's £866,000
La Ferrari 1300 Kg's(dry) £1,200,000
An Ultima can be made <900Kg's without too much trouble.
add a monster engine a competent driver and you have a bargain basement rocket ship That will humble most factory fodder.
The factory would say they are producing a car built in the spirit of a class C Le Mans car.
No doubt they will take advantage of better engines (as per the LS series) that were not supported a few years back but would be fair to say are now the more desired choice.
They may even take advantage if an "easy to configure" flappy paddle box can be made to fit one day.
Suffice to say unless you want to drop the best part of a £1000,000 on a motor car and then rag it to death, you already own one of the best (performance) cars available.
ETS a carbon fibre body would be a "nice to have".
Captain Slog said:
If I'm not mistaken I think the Factory did make a CF body which was later sold on to a customer, however I believe it actually weighed more than the standard GF one. Maybe that's why they only made one.
Steve
Without any doubt CF has come a long way since the days the Factory experimented with the stuff. A new try by the guys in Hinckley would be great to see.Steve
How many would be prepared to pay the additional $$$ for one? If enough, I'm sure the factory would consider it.
If we are talking of other areas, I'd like to suggest a few things I think should either be improved or offered as options:
Pedal set. Factory ones are functional and remind me of those I've had in Westfields. I think a nice tilton or equiv pedal set should be offered. No functional improvement, but a quality product.
Handbrake - as above, something nicer than a mini one
Instruments - the stack 8000 series is very old now, it's expensive and technologically dated. A pod to contain a dash 2 would be great. Much better setup with modern engines
Only a few detail things granted, but I'm sure they would be options most builders would go for nowadays.
Switches etc are easily sourced and more individual, but I guess a more modern alternative would also be quite popular.
Oh and carbon brakes and wheels if we want to make it lighter
If we are talking of other areas, I'd like to suggest a few things I think should either be improved or offered as options:
Pedal set. Factory ones are functional and remind me of those I've had in Westfields. I think a nice tilton or equiv pedal set should be offered. No functional improvement, but a quality product.
Handbrake - as above, something nicer than a mini one
Instruments - the stack 8000 series is very old now, it's expensive and technologically dated. A pod to contain a dash 2 would be great. Much better setup with modern engines
Only a few detail things granted, but I'm sure they would be options most builders would go for nowadays.
Switches etc are easily sourced and more individual, but I guess a more modern alternative would also be quite popular.
Oh and carbon brakes and wheels if we want to make it lighter
I am glad my topic has created some discussion.
I believe you are correct that the Factory did get a carbon body made, but it was quite a while ago and I suspect the process is much better understood now and a weight saving of around 50% could be achieved now on the body (at a cost).
The chassis is an area where a few more Kgs could be saved using higher grades of material with thinner walls. The panels could be made of carbon too (small weight saving).
One piece wheels would also save some weight.
I suspect it would be possible to shave off around 100kgs but it could add £10-15K to the kit cost.
I know the car is already great value in the performance per £ stakes. Mine is only about 500bhp per ton so you guys with 700/ton still have a big performance advantage over the mass produced supercars.
Maybe I will swap the camshaft next winter to see if I can get to 630ish but most of the time 575 is quite enough.
Paul
I believe you are correct that the Factory did get a carbon body made, but it was quite a while ago and I suspect the process is much better understood now and a weight saving of around 50% could be achieved now on the body (at a cost).
The chassis is an area where a few more Kgs could be saved using higher grades of material with thinner walls. The panels could be made of carbon too (small weight saving).
One piece wheels would also save some weight.
I suspect it would be possible to shave off around 100kgs but it could add £10-15K to the kit cost.
I know the car is already great value in the performance per £ stakes. Mine is only about 500bhp per ton so you guys with 700/ton still have a big performance advantage over the mass produced supercars.
Maybe I will swap the camshaft next winter to see if I can get to 630ish but most of the time 575 is quite enough.
Paul
No expert but I believe a lot of the weight saving also comes from strict control of the amount of epoxy used in the pre-preg, pre-impregnated process. Plus vac bagging it also reduces the voids & adds strength. I've had my eyes on this company producing carbon wheels. http://www.carbonrev.com/
They don't do Ultima sizes, yet. Probably not suitable for UK roads anyway.
I asked the Factory last year about carbon body parts. The reply being that the fibre glass offers exceedingly good value & has practical advantages. Their business plan consists keeping it simple & affordable for builders, but still maintaining the best performance for a road car. You have to agree their approach has been successful.
They are only a small company and I believe if they start investing in producing niche products & high end accessories on top of the basic proven product then this is added risk & and may damage their cashflow and bottom line profits.
Keeping it simple also has the advantage in that you don't need the same hp as the major car producers. No hybrid systems, heavy batteries, fancy body work, full interiors and track control that limits & controls the higher hp figures.
They don't do Ultima sizes, yet. Probably not suitable for UK roads anyway.
I asked the Factory last year about carbon body parts. The reply being that the fibre glass offers exceedingly good value & has practical advantages. Their business plan consists keeping it simple & affordable for builders, but still maintaining the best performance for a road car. You have to agree their approach has been successful.
They are only a small company and I believe if they start investing in producing niche products & high end accessories on top of the basic proven product then this is added risk & and may damage their cashflow and bottom line profits.
Keeping it simple also has the advantage in that you don't need the same hp as the major car producers. No hybrid systems, heavy batteries, fancy body work, full interiors and track control that limits & controls the higher hp figures.
Of course, there is one simple question you can ask the driver of the other car... Can you do that with the driver aids off? Oh, they don't turn off completely? Oh, Shame.
There will always be something newer, faster, 'better' by some metric or other. That's neither here nor there. What I suspect matters more to those who want a car such as an ultima and forgoe Astons et al, is that they want that something different to the rest.
Sometimes, it's not about how quickly you get there, it's about how you get there. So, go stick a 1200 bhp engine in it and be jonny bigbolix but equally, throw in a 350 bhp sbc and still enjoy something so visceral, so encompassing that it doesn't make you hanker for the prancing pony or similar.
Since I've wanted an ultima, my first realisation was that the most complex bit of technology I want in it will be the sat nav unit. Any thing that gets in the way of connection between those three pedals and the lump behind the ears.. both living and man made, is a hinderance. I think it, like caterham has it's market spot on.
There will always be something newer, faster, 'better' by some metric or other. That's neither here nor there. What I suspect matters more to those who want a car such as an ultima and forgoe Astons et al, is that they want that something different to the rest.
Sometimes, it's not about how quickly you get there, it's about how you get there. So, go stick a 1200 bhp engine in it and be jonny bigbolix but equally, throw in a 350 bhp sbc and still enjoy something so visceral, so encompassing that it doesn't make you hanker for the prancing pony or similar.
Since I've wanted an ultima, my first realisation was that the most complex bit of technology I want in it will be the sat nav unit. Any thing that gets in the way of connection between those three pedals and the lump behind the ears.. both living and man made, is a hinderance. I think it, like caterham has it's market spot on.
The satisfaction that I will always derive from having accomplished building my gtr will always outshine the ,momentary rush of spending a bag full of money. For something that a large percentage of super car buyers see as nothing more than an object that reflects the size of one of Thier appendages. Just saying, lee
Listening to the Joe Rogan Experience with Chris Harris on Youtube. Over 2 hours of good car chat. They touched on the subject of increased power outputs known as the car power race that is going on. A couple of points he suggested is that for the main car producers really only have 10 years remaining with the internal combustion engine before being forced to switch to electricity so the engineers are "going for it" plus with modern technology advances 700+ bhp is reliable to put into production, but also stated that in many cases usable drivable power is a lot less.
Edited by Ult-Jim on Monday 2nd March 16:42
I wonder if a company could support the factory with optional extras? basically a bit like American Speeds dose for the engine but say for bodywork or interiors. Then there is no competition with the factory and you are actually promoting the brand. might be a little bit of licensing cost to figure out but wouldn't be anything that couldn't be agreed.
This would maybe give the factory the recourses to develop the car more.
HOWEVER
The issue with a constantly changing car like the Ultima is how do you NOT p!ss of your current customers? Even with the chassis there must have been people that bought a kit one day and the next the new chassis was available. How do you manage that? Yeah you could offer the new component to all the older customers but were do you draw the line?
So you go for a whole new model. But then you loose support for the older cars.
Its very difficult if you don't have the resources to manage the above, esp in a market were customer focus can mean the difference between a sale and loosing tens of sales.
This would maybe give the factory the recourses to develop the car more.
HOWEVER
The issue with a constantly changing car like the Ultima is how do you NOT p!ss of your current customers? Even with the chassis there must have been people that bought a kit one day and the next the new chassis was available. How do you manage that? Yeah you could offer the new component to all the older customers but were do you draw the line?
So you go for a whole new model. But then you loose support for the older cars.
Its very difficult if you don't have the resources to manage the above, esp in a market were customer focus can mean the difference between a sale and loosing tens of sales.
While I'm all for the ultima losing weight, I suspect you are on a exponential cost curve.
Making the frame into a CF tub would look cool, changing the engine for a light weight turbo charged bike based v8 motor with flappy paddles would be brill and finally topping it off with CF bodywork showing off the weave would make it a real looker. However you wouldn't see much change from £175k and the maintenance cycle would go down to 40hrs with a mandatory 45min warm-up as per the Radicals.
The great thing is its a kit car so some of these things would be possible but at a price...
I would urge the factory to bring out a mk III (or whatever the next version is). Other UK low volume Manufacturers do this to great effect. With the new frame (titanium option maybe?) , better in board suspension, led front lights, better aero, maybe a more modern front clam etc I would be tempted to do another build ....
....but keep it pure.
Making the frame into a CF tub would look cool, changing the engine for a light weight turbo charged bike based v8 motor with flappy paddles would be brill and finally topping it off with CF bodywork showing off the weave would make it a real looker. However you wouldn't see much change from £175k and the maintenance cycle would go down to 40hrs with a mandatory 45min warm-up as per the Radicals.
The great thing is its a kit car so some of these things would be possible but at a price...
I would urge the factory to bring out a mk III (or whatever the next version is). Other UK low volume Manufacturers do this to great effect. With the new frame (titanium option maybe?) , better in board suspension, led front lights, better aero, maybe a more modern front clam etc I would be tempted to do another build ....
....but keep it pure.
To avoid exponential spending, it is possible to do a lot yourself, but it is the time which is then exponentially increasing.
All the panels can be made out of CF. First the normal panel is done with alu, then the alu part is used as "mold" for the CF. With the curing under vacuum bag, the result is good.
I did some parts below with pure CF and some CF-Kevlar for the ones close to the driver such as the cil covers, they are not finished and are now following the surface finishing process (pore filling-grinding). The parts are 3x lighter, they are not 100% perfect, but it gives a handcrafted appearance and they look 100% real CF. The best in the process is the feeling of having made it yourself!
All the panels can be made out of CF. First the normal panel is done with alu, then the alu part is used as "mold" for the CF. With the curing under vacuum bag, the result is good.
I did some parts below with pure CF and some CF-Kevlar for the ones close to the driver such as the cil covers, they are not finished and are now following the surface finishing process (pore filling-grinding). The parts are 3x lighter, they are not 100% perfect, but it gives a handcrafted appearance and they look 100% real CF. The best in the process is the feeling of having made it yourself!
Lighter is the way forward... some may know that I made moulds and my own vac formed carbon panels for my Noble... the original noble body panels are stiffer than Ultima panels and thus heavier as standard (I built an early canam back in 2001). I made my panels from carbon composites thus they are foam cored with kevlar reinforcement so are mechanically superior to pure carbon and thus ended up with panels that are stiffer/stronger than the original (I can and have stood on the roof of my car without any distortion to shape, and the doors have significant crash protection due to masses of kevlar).
So how much did I save... well my original Noble panels weighed 95kgs, my carbon panels are 47kgs.. breakdown below.
Standard tub 30kgs... carbon 16kgs
Rear clam 30kgs... carbon 12kgs
Front clam 21kgs... carbon 11kgs
Door 9kgs... carbon 6kgs
side A panel 2.2kgs.... carbon 0.8kgs
The biggest cost was the moulds but I'd estimate around 5k of materials alone in the carbon bodywork itself, however its a minimum of a months work to make them! a GF version would take 3-4 days and use £1-2k materials max.
V weave is more than possible, I did it with mine... who's going to be the first to make a full carbon lacquered Ultima? surely one is due and would look absolutely awesome
So how much did I save... well my original Noble panels weighed 95kgs, my carbon panels are 47kgs.. breakdown below.
Standard tub 30kgs... carbon 16kgs
Rear clam 30kgs... carbon 12kgs
Front clam 21kgs... carbon 11kgs
Door 9kgs... carbon 6kgs
side A panel 2.2kgs.... carbon 0.8kgs
The biggest cost was the moulds but I'd estimate around 5k of materials alone in the carbon bodywork itself, however its a minimum of a months work to make them! a GF version would take 3-4 days and use £1-2k materials max.
V weave is more than possible, I did it with mine... who's going to be the first to make a full carbon lacquered Ultima? surely one is due and would look absolutely awesome
andygtt said:
The biggest cost was the moulds but I'd estimate around 5k of materials alone in the carbon bodywork itself, however its a minimum of a months work to make them! a GF version would take 3-4 days and use £1-2k materials max.
First time I've seen that kind of comparison...thanks for that I've followed your threads with interest on the Noble forums, to a point of investigating further CF costs, techniques etc. I soon realised I didn't have the time or patience to do it justice
Back to original OP's point. With 3 secs 0-60 becoming the norm for super cars the gap between the likes of Ultimas, caterhams, Atoms etc is diminishing in terms of performance. However analogue vs digital will always have its place.
Edited by XBOW on Monday 2nd March 22:16
Ult-Jim said:
I've had my eyes on this company producing carbon wheels. http://www.carbonrev.com/
They don't do Ultima sizes, yet. Probably not suitable for UK roads anyway.
Why would Australian roads be any different from UK or continental Europe or USA. i have driven around Europe and the UK and if anything our roads here in Australia are worse!They don't do Ultima sizes, yet. Probably not suitable for UK roads anyway.
I live an hours drive from carbonrev and probably an hour and a half from Albins.
regards Ryan
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