RE: G-Wagen vs Defender: PH Blog

RE: G-Wagen vs Defender: PH Blog

Friday 6th March 2015

G-Wagen vs Defender: PH Blog

Why the Land Rover Defender won the fight against the G-Wagen but has ultimately lost the war



Outrageously blinged up G-Wagens are a Geneva motor show staple but, somewhat belatedly, it seems Land Rover Defender tuners are also catering to a demand for taste/money no object 4x4s.

Dependably daft G-Wagens a Geneva staple
Dependably daft G-Wagens a Geneva staple
As the G-Wagen thrives the Defender is in its final year of production though, the Mercedes seemingly finally victorious in a rivalry that stretches back to the late 70s when the Gelandewagen first appeared. Geneva traffic isn't good for many things but when I hopped into the back of an XJ and found myself alongside Roger Crathorne - aka 'Mr Land Rover' - he seemed like a good chap to discuss this with. And so it proved. We weren't short of time...

Roger's history with Land Rover goes all the way back. Indeed, he was born round the corner from the factory and spent his entire career there - you can read his story here in a press release issued by Land Rover on his retirement last year.

Anyway, his years working in PR meant he was tactful on the topic of the Flying Huntsman and its ilk but his tales of evaluating the early G-Wagens against Land Rover product were fascinating.

Compromised off-road? Not exactly...
Compromised off-road? Not exactly...
"If they'd sold a proper utilitarian short-wheelbase they'd have murdered us," he admits. Instead of going against the Defender Mercedes made the fatal error of pitching the G against the Range Rover. And here it struggled. Roger explains that the Range Rover's light aluminium body meant they could get away without anti-roll bars, improving comfort and - crucially - axle articulation for off-road use. This combination of road manners and proper mud-plugging cred remain there to this day of course.

The G-Wagen, meanwhile, had a heavy steel body and to match the Range Rover's roadholding needed anti-roll bars. This, says Roger, limited axle articulation meaning Mercedes had to fit switchable diff locks to maintain off-road traction, originally operated by 'organ stop' controls and later electrically with dash-mounted switches. Effective but, Roger says, "it cost them a fortune" and made the G too expensive to compete with workhorse Defenders. Yet too utilitarian to rival the Range Rover.

1983 Land Rover got coil springs
1983 Land Rover got coil springs
Which isn't to say Roger is dismissive of the G-Wagen. When it first appeared and he got a chance to drive military spec ones with the Dutch army in the late 70s. And its coil sprung suspension was much more up to date than the then leaf-sprung Landie. "It was an impressive vehicle. We were evaluating coil springs for the Land Rover at this time," says Roger, this experience no doubt informing the boys from Solihull and inspiring them to follow suit with the heavily modernised 1983 Land Rover 90/110/130.

A pity then that, as Mercedes continues to support the G with up to date engines and mad special editions of its own, the Defender has gone beyond the point where this would be economically viable. There will probably still be some outrageous special edition Landies soldiering on at future Geneva shows. But the chance to see both grow old disgracefully together has been denied to us. And that's a damned shame!

Dan





   
   

[Sources: Land Rover, Mercedes Archive]

Author
Discussion

MrTappets

Original Poster:

881 posts

190 months

Friday 6th March 2015
quotequote all
Do we actually know what Landie is bringing out to replace the Defender with? Strikes me that if it's not essentially the same, but with thoroughly updated underpinnings, they'll have missed the point. If you wouldn't feel comfortable literally turning a hose on the interior to clean it, it's not utilitarian enough in my books.

Give me something that looks identical, costs about the same, but doesn't have the NVH and safety credentials of a WW2 submarine and I'll be happy.

yellowstreak

613 posts

151 months

Friday 6th March 2015
quotequote all
"made the G too expensive to compete with workhorse Defenders", that's the only reason I can think that I'd choose a defender over a G wagen. THe G wagen is better engineered and crucially better put together with better quality parts.

RobGT81

5,227 posts

185 months

Friday 6th March 2015
quotequote all
MrTappets said:
Do we actually know what Landie is bringing out to replace the Defender with? Strikes me that if it's not essentially the same, but with thoroughly updated underpinnings, they'll have missed the point. If you wouldn't feel comfortable literally turning a hose on the interior to clean it, it's not utilitarian enough in my books.
They are trying to keep it looking as close as possible while appealing to a younger audience. Taking the approach of with a cover over it, you can tell its a Defender.

Swordman

452 posts

163 months

Friday 6th March 2015
quotequote all
It's inconceivable to think anyone would rather have a Range Rover over a G Wagen, but alas, it happens.

Neezer

391 posts

227 months

Friday 6th March 2015
quotequote all
MrTappets said:
Do we actually know what Landie is bringing out to replace the Defender with? Strikes me that if it's not essentially the same, but with thoroughly updated underpinnings, they'll have missed the point. If you wouldn't feel comfortable literally turning a hose on the interior to clean it, it's not utilitarian enough in my books.

Give me something that looks identical, costs about the same, but doesn't have the NVH and safety credentials of a WW2 submarine and I'll be happy.
Well apparently the final design for the styling has already been signed off.. http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/new-lan...

Apart from that not much else is known for sure.

I think the general theory is that the Range rover range is the very expensive premiums stuff, Discovery range middle of the road and Defender will be the more 'affordable' range. Hopefully it'll come in in reasonable spec and good offroad utility. Maybe around £25k. Then again this may be wishful thinking on my part...

What I don't understand is why Land Rover are so silent on the matter.

kbf1981

2,249 posts

199 months

Friday 6th March 2015
quotequote all
Neezer said:
What I don't understand is why Land Rover are so silent on the matter.
Because the Defender is their least profitable car.

smilo996

2,754 posts

169 months

Friday 6th March 2015
quotequote all
Seems very premature article.

JLR will be replacing or put another way upgrading the Defender as well as continuing to produce the Defender outside the EU.
Additionally JLR makes the RR and Disco RR which clearly out performs the G Wagon. So JLR will have four viable competitiors to the G Wagoin against Mercs one.

The G Wagon also continues to be built (as the Defender would be) because it is supported by the German government buying the military spec. Would they make it otherwise, I doubt it.

Come on PH, drop the illogical German love.....again.

MaserBob

31 posts

121 months

Friday 6th March 2015
quotequote all
Swordman said:
It's inconceivable to think anyone would rather have a Range Rover over a G Wagen, but alas, it happens.
Not really - the Range Rover is smooth, comfortable and stylish - the G Wagen isn't. Take your pick.

FreiWild

405 posts

155 months

Friday 6th March 2015
quotequote all
smilo996 said:


The G Wagon also continues to be built (as the Defender would be) because it is supported by the German government buying the military spec. Would they make it otherwise, I doubt it.

Come on PH, drop the illogical German love.....again.
U wot m8.


Where did you pull that golden nugget from?

oldtimer2

728 posts

132 months

Friday 6th March 2015
quotequote all
The Range Rover easily outperformed the Series 3 Land Rover off road. The Land Rover 90 and 110 replacements (early 80s) for the Series 3, in essence, used the Range Rover coil suspension (without the self levelling Boge strut IIRC) to up its off road performance.

JLR have said that the new model will be "dual role". By that I guess that there will still be work horse versions that people will adapt and use for personal use - as indeed happened to the original much to the surprise of the Rover company at the time. But to up their volumes they will, no doubt, feed the market desire for performance versions. It would be good to see a Big Foot version coming out of SVO.

carinaman

21,214 posts

171 months

Friday 6th March 2015
quotequote all
I love that green colour that run out Landie is in. smile

I have much want for G-Wagens too. Not quite as cool as Unimogs though are they?

CarreraWB

51 posts

117 months

Friday 6th March 2015
quotequote all
smilo996 said:
Seems very premature article.

JLR will be replacing or put another way upgrading the Defender as well as continuing to produce the Defender outside the EU.
Additionally JLR makes the RR and Disco RR which clearly out performs the G Wagon. So JLR will have four viable competitiors to the G Wagoin against Mercs one.

The G Wagon also continues to be built (as the Defender would be) because it is supported by the German government buying the military spec. Would they make it otherwise, I doubt it.

Come on PH, drop the illogical German love.....again.
It seems smilo996 has an illogical hatred of Porsche and Germany.

soad

32,825 posts

175 months

Friday 6th March 2015
quotequote all
This looks a right chav machine compared to these (Unimogs).
(Latest G-Wagens are too bling for my liking). frown










Dan Trent

1,866 posts

167 months

Friday 6th March 2015
quotequote all
smilo996 said:
Come on PH, drop the illogical German love.....again.
Erm, did we not say that Mercedes dropped the ball and the G-Wagen failed to compete with the Defender as a utilitarian vehicle but was also overpriced and compromised compared with the Range Rover as a road-biased luxury one? And that the Range Rover still succeeds at this today?

Oh, that's right, we did!

Dan

jason61c

5,978 posts

173 months

Friday 6th March 2015
quotequote all
The British army wanted to use G wagen's as they were quite a bit better during all the tests, however it was considered 'un-British' to use superior German stuff at the time!

smilo996

2,754 posts

169 months

Friday 6th March 2015
quotequote all
FreiWild said:
smilo996 said:


The G Wagon also continues to be built (as the Defender would be) because it is supported by the German government buying the military spec. Would they make it otherwise, I doubt it.

Come on PH, drop the illogical German love.....again.
U wot m8.


Where did you pull that golden nugget from?
You spend too much time in the UK. It has been bought by over 35 country's military forces and Over 12,000 vehicles have been delivered in over 50 versions to zee Germans alone

Wel done.

smilo996

2,754 posts

169 months

Friday 6th March 2015
quotequote all
Dan Trent said:
smilo996 said:
Come on PH, drop the illogical German love.....again.
Erm, did we not say that Mercedes dropped the ball and the G-Wagen failed to compete with the Defender as a utilitarian vehicle but was also overpriced and compromised compared with the Range Rover as a road-biased luxury one? And that the Range Rover still succeeds at this today?

Oh, that's right, we did!

Dan
No Dan Roger said that, however you said that the Defender won the battle and Merc the war. Check you inbox Dan!

skyrover

12,668 posts

203 months

Friday 6th March 2015
quotequote all
Neezer said:
Well apparently the final design for the styling has already been signed off.. http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/new-lan...
This worries me a little.

Defender and "styling" should not be in the same sentence.

Form should follow function... anything else can be binned.

KillerHERTZ

935 posts

197 months

Friday 6th March 2015
quotequote all
soad said:
This looks a right chav machine compared to these (Unimogs).
(Latest G-Wagens are too bling for my liking). frown

Thats because thats the Mastonry, which is Chav, a standard one isnt.


anonymous-user

53 months

Friday 6th March 2015
quotequote all
Dan Trent said:
smilo996 said:
Come on PH, drop the illogical German love.....again.
Erm, did we not say that Mercedes dropped the ball and the G-Wagen failed to compete with the Defender as a utilitarian vehicle but was also overpriced and compromised compared with the Range Rover as a road-biased luxury one? And that the Range Rover still succeeds at this today?

Oh, that's right, we did!

Dan
The interesting point for me is that the G was really a "Discovery" competitor, some 15 years before the Discovery arrived! With it's all welded steel body construction, it was not quite flexible enough to fit into all the military roles that the Series/Defender Landrovers had made their own. The bolt together nature of the LR on top of a ladder chassis meant it was incredibly easy to adapt it to just about any military purpose without having to spend a vast amount of money doing so.
In the commercial sector, it was simply too expensive to challenge the LR's as a pure utility vehicle, leaving LR unmatched until the flood of reliable but cheap Eastern pickups (hilux etc) pushed it out of most world markets.

The downside is that the Landrovers famously flexible construction has become it's Achilles Heal today, being vastly expensive and time consuming to assemble, and lacking in the necessary "precision fit" of todays robot welded, pressed steel unibodies.