Ford flat plane crank

[Verde]

So it's quite premature because the car has not shipped, but does anyone have a sense of how the new flat-plane 32-valve DOHC V8 from the Mustang Shelby 350 could be fitted to the Ultima? I have an LS7 in there and though it's glorious, there's nothing like a free-breathing proper-firing engine to send a chill up the spine.
It's not likely that I would act, even if possible but one can dream, right? And it's not at all clear that Ford will ever offer it as a crate motor like my LS7.
I had read somewhere that the engine is too wide for the Ultima engine compartment but I never confirmed that. And mating it to the Porsche transmission is an unknown as well...
V

[ezakimak]

Verde,

I know you have seen this thread, you posted in it.

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

The block will in all likelihood be the same as the Coyote, and that is well known in the gt40 circles. I wouldn't be surprised if someone has done an adapter plate. There is a drb gt40 builder in qld/oz who is mating a coyote and a G50/52 together. it's probably already been done by Chris/"Flatchat on gt40s.com" here in Oz who does the adaptor plates.

Cad model for the coyote was in previous thread.

Cad for LS is available as well

Just waiting on Ford to release the engine.

[F.C.]

Why not "flat plane" the LS7 I believe it has been done so the crank and cam(S) must exist.
Not quite a DOHC I grant you but I'll bet it'll meet your expectations.

[Verde]

Yes, thanks for the reminder. But I've not heard any further news about Ford releasing it as a crate engine, and that was the thread that raised the concern about it's width and raising the CG.
Separately placing a flat-plane crank in to an LS wouldn't solve for my interests without the freer breathing/higher revving capabilities that a DOHC provides though it would sound a lot better. There are growing rumors though about a Corvette C8 with mid-engine debuting sometime next year (though I'm still dubious). Those rumors cite the likelihood of an LS with a DOHC. I can only hope.
B

ezakimak said:

Verde,

I know you have seen this thread, you posted in it.

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

The block will in all likelihood be the same as the Coyote, and that is well known in the gt40 circles. I wouldn't be surprised if someone has done an adapter plate. There is a drb gt40 builder in qld/oz who is mating a coyote and a G50/52 together. it's probably already been done by Chris/"Flatchat on gt40s.com" here in Oz who does the adaptor plates.

Cad model for the coyote was in previous thread.

Cad for LS is available as well

Just waiting on Ford to release the engine.

[chuntington101]

There are 4 valve per cylinder heads available for the LS engine. In fact I think Mercury racing, famed for boat engines, are designing a set for the alas that are based in their own engine (9.0ltr v8 4 valve per cylinder and twin turbos).

LPE has also drag raced a 33x cubic inch motor I think that was a flat plain crank and turbo'ed. worked VERY well for them.

Is the new ford engine direct injection? Pretty sure if it is it will be a harder kit car engine than the coyote.

Also see here for the original Ford v8 32 valve DOHC engine that made 500bhp back in the 1930's. Wonder is one would fit in an ultima? Lol

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_GAA_engine

[F.C.]

This?
PHWOOOOOOOOAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGHHHHHH!

http://s17.photobucket.com/user/BRAAPZ/media/Gen%2...

[Verde]

chuntington101 said:

There are 4 valve per cylinder heads available for the LS engine. In fact I think Mercury racing, famed for boat engines, are designing a set for the alas that are based in their own engine (9.0ltr v8 4 valve per cylinder and twin turbos).

LPE has also drag raced a 33x cubic inch motor I think that was a flat plain crank and turbo'ed. worked VERY well for them.

Is the new ford engine direct injection? Pretty sure if it is it will be a harder kit car engine than the coyote.

Also see here for the original Ford v8 32 valve DOHC engine that made 500bhp back in the 1930's. Wonder is one would fit in an ultima? Lol

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_GAA_engine

I believe it's direct injection. What is it about DI that makes it a greater challenge than the per cylinder port injection in the LS7?
And for me (and to be fair, as I stated in the first post this is mostly just dreaming since I can't imagine removing a perfectly fine LS7 - unless there is a good market for it) I wouldn't have the courage to put together an aftermarket DOHC system. I would rather rely on the level of testing of an auto maker to ensure reliability. But that's me.
And what the heck is this? http://s17.photobucket.com/user/BRAAPZ/media/Gen%2...
V

[ezakimak]

Verde said:

There are growing rumors though about a Corvette C8 with mid-engine debuting sometime next year (though I'm still dubious). Those rumors cite the likelihood of an LS with a DOHC. I can only hope.
B

the petrol engine is probably on its last legs, there is not much left in the current technology. Mainstream manufacturers in Europe have had to sign up to a total fleet emissions volume thingy...
cant remember what its called though, but basically for all new engines that they release they are bound under this new regime. What they are doing is pushing all the volume sellers well under the new limits (think small capacity, low rev, low cylinder count & turbo) so that they can release a few halo models with the old tech, meaning that the possibility for real race engines in cars is there, as the mark up will be higher and the volumes really small along with the liability of failure to the company should the engines not last as long.

the next step for the petrol engine needs to be a step change from where it is currently. Merc, Mazda and GM have all put out press releases relating to them separately building new engines based on the same fundamental principle. it will be interesting to see if they can get it to work.

direct injection cools the charge in the cylinder which is the opposite of what you want for performance as it reduces the effective force on the top of the cylinder under combustion, it is only good for emissions as it reduces the nitrosoxides (NOx). Why you would want it on a one off Hot Rod is beyond me.

can someone show me a racing engine that uses direct injection?

Edited by ezakimak on Monday 20th April 01:08

[ezakimak]

it will be interesting to see if the flat plane crank and cams end up in the spare parts catalogue for the mustang.

that is all you would need to make it.

[BogBeast]

ezakimak said:

the petrol engine is probably on its last legs, there is not much left in the current technology. Mainstream manufacturers in Europe have had to sign up to a total fleet emissions volume thingy...
cant remember what its called though, but basically for all new engines that they release they are bound under this new regime. What they are doing is pushing all the volume sellers well under the new limits (think small capacity, low rev, low cylinder count & turbo) so that they can release a few halo models with the old tech, meaning that the possibility for real race engines in cars is there, as the mark up will be higher and the volumes really small along with the liability of failure to the company should the engines not last as long.

the next step for the petrol engine needs to be a step change from where it is currently. Merc, Mazda and GM have all put out press releases relating to them separately building new engines based on the same fundamental principle. it will be interesting to see if they can get it to work.

direct injection cools the charge in the cylinder which is the opposite of what you want for performance as it reduces the effective force on the top of the cylinder under combustion, it is only good for emissions as it reduces the nitrosoxides (NOx). Why you would want it on a one off Hot Rod is beyond me.

can someone show me a racing engine that uses direct injection?

Edited by ezakimak on Monday 20th April 01:08

In 10 years I would suggest that internal combustion engines, at best, will operate as range extenders for an all electric powertrain. There may well be some niche holdouts of exotica, but the move to electric will be driven by the performance available and the need for ever increasing emissions compliance.

I have no doubt there will be a good supply of LS V8's around for many years and I guess the low volume mfgs will get a pass on the emissions compliance, but surely it could get more tricky to IVA when you can no longer buy 'new' engines.

Will be interesting to see how the 'self build' industry responds.

[ROWDYRENAULT]

the Ford flat plane is not a direct injection motor, per a article in one of the magazines. Without starting a mess I will say that the comment about direct injection being strictly a emissions tool is wrong. Direct injection is even more accurate in where it places the fuel and the timing of the event which allows an even higher compression ratio than without direct injection. The higher the compression ratio in a gas motor the higher the efficiency in both specific fuel consumption and power produced. One of the few times that we get the best of both worlds from the same equipment. As for the gas motor being at the end of its life, yes, there is a lot of pressure on the OEMs from a fuel mileage and emissions stand point to use smaller motors with energy enhancers. But gas motors will be here in some form for at least another thirty years and by that time if I'm still around I doubt I will be supple enough to get into the GTR. lEE