Monday 8th June 2015

Ferrari vs McLaren, round two: PH Blog

Why Italian roads will always hand Ferrari an advantage against McLaren

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Just how big an influence does the country a car is developed in make on what it's like to drive? Less so now that even the Americans feel duty bound to benchmark their domestic product at the bloody Nurburgring. But it still matters.

Essential car park testing regime makes it count

Traditionally we'd have said this was a plus point for British manufacturers, our narrow, twisty, bumpy and speed restricted rural roads resulting in cars that make a virtue of being nimble, supple and fun to drive at realistic speeds.

From small volume sports car builders to mainstream manufacturers like Jaguar Land Rover, the classic British shakedown has real value. Especially in comparison with the Germans, obsessed as they stereotypically are with Autobahn (over) gearing and tied-down Nordschleife damper settings.

Bit different when it comes to supercars though. And a specific issue for McLaren in its rivalry with Ferrari.

Not a bad proving ground, as they go

A short drive from Maranello is one of those roads that really shows up strengths and weaknesses in a car's chassis and set-up. It's bumpy, climbs the steep side of a valley with hairpin after hairpin before opening out into fast straights and corners at the top. Seemingly well known to visiting hacks you'll have seen many a Ferrari photographed and videoed here. Often sideways and laying down thick number 11s on the tarmac. Going by my time there on the 488 GTB launch it's also a favourite of the Ferrari test drivers. Who do much the same, I'm assuming on a frequent basis. Do the locals seem bothered? Beyond a bit of misty-eyed national pride at seeing fully lit 488 and F12 M mules giving it the beans on the public road seemingly not.

Stereotypes apart this has to be a unique competitive advantage for Ferrari compared with McLaren. If the 488 project chief wants to test a new damper setting or ESP calibration in flat-out road conditions he can just chuck the keys to the nearest test driver, send him off and in a couple of hours he'll have his results. The benefits of this are obvious behind the wheel of any modern Ferrari.

How can his opposite number at McLaren rival that? Just how would the residents of Surrey react if Chris Goodwin and his team regularly laid rubber down on Box Hill and weaved between other traffic and cyclists in camo'd 675LTs at 120mph? By giving them a thumbs up for demonstrating British engineering prowess in action?

Box Hill here we come ... oh

Sure, McLaren can use any number of airfields, race tracks or test circuits. And, huge credit to them, there are no glaring deficiencies in the way McLarens drive on road or track. Far from it. But nailing those final few percentages of the set-up will involve time, expense and faff the Ferrari engineers simply don't have to contend with.

Same with Porsche. I'll forgive Wolfgang Hatz a bit of poetic licence when he says he does 300km/h every day on his way to work. But the point is, if he wanted to, he probably could find a quiet bit of Autobahn on the way home and find out how his latest prototype works in extremis. Not quite the same as Ferrari's local back roads. But better than Bruntingthorpe.

I'm not saying giving McLaren test drivers special dispensation to rag around Surrey back roads at maximum attack is necessarily a good idea. But as long as their equivalents in Maranello get the opportunity to the same on their local roads that has to hand an advantage to the Italians. What then, F1 style testing restrictions for supercar makers? Might spice things up a bit.

Dan

Spy photos: S. Baldauf/SB-Medien

[Enricogto]

The point of the article is????

The road you are referring to is an old road used only by cyclists and Ferrari to test their cars (a new, much straighter and faster road runs at the bottom of the valley). Ferrari pays for the tarmac to be resurfaced regularly. Bar a couple of farms, no one lives there. The residents aren't complaining (I for one enjoy the wail resonating against the hills!) so I really struggle to see the problem.

[Davey S2]

Enricogto said:

The point of the article is????

+1 Slow day?

[DonkeyApple]

Enricogto said:

The point of the article is????.

My understanding of the article is that Mr Trent thinks the residents of Surrey are whinging old women who can suck his ball bag.

As per usual, he is correct.

[StottyEvo]

Davey S2 said:

Enricogto said:

The point of the article is????

+1 Slow day?

I'm not sure but I enjoyed reading it.

[matsoc]

I am Italian and I now live in Italy but I covered many miles on British roads too. There are epic roads in both countries. I would choose Italy because of many more mountain roads and because in general the roads are more variegated but I don't understand why UK car makers should use less the road-testing than Italian car makers. It is probably true that In Italy some secondary twisty hill roads are not really checked by local police but I guess the same happens in UK. I mean, here in Italy I know a lot of roads where nobody will ever put a speed camera...

[Dan Trent]

StottyEvo said:

Davey S2 said:

Enricogto said:

The point of the article is????

+1 Slow day?

I'm not sure but I enjoyed reading it.

Just some musings edited out of the first draft of my 488 review! It just struck me that the ability to apparently test 'at pace' on the public road must gift the Ferrari engineers a competitive advantage over their rivals, specifically McLaren in this instance. Borne out by the way the 488 handles over some pretty crummy and challenging surfaces. And the amusement at seeing fully lit prototypes out in the wild!

Credit due to their McLaren opposite numbers - more credit really - that they have done such a good job of their cars even with this restriction on how they test on the public road. Either that or they know some routes around Surrey that I don't!

Dan

[TNH]

When the McLaren 12C was first released I'm sure all the motoring hacks were writing that the ride was absolutely sublime and better than anything else in the same segment of the market?

Slightly confusing article really.

[Roma101]

Welcome to the crowded south-east! Still struggling to find a decent driving road near me or one where I can 'let go'. No wonder people slip towards the black stuff...

[jeremyc]

Dan Trent said:

Credit due to their McLaren opposite numbers - more credit really - that they have done such a good job of their cars even with this restriction on how they test on the public road. Either that or they know some routes around Surrey that I don't!

Dan

McLaren have a specialist proving ground just down the road at Longcross that they can use. In fact every new car has it's shakedown test there.

Regardless, you bring the 488GTB over Dan-san and I'll drive you round some of the best testing roads in Surrey.

[Enricogto]

Dan Trent said:

Just some musings edited out of the first draft of my 488 review! It just struck me that the ability to apparently test 'at pace' on the public road must gift the Ferrari engineers a competitive advantage over their rivals, specifically McLaren in this instance. Borne out by the way the 488 handles over some pretty crummy and challenging surfaces. And the amusement at seeing fully lit prototypes out in the wild!

Credit due to their McLaren opposite numbers - more credit really - that they have done such a good job of their cars even with this restriction on how they test on the public road. Either that or they know some routes around Surrey that I don't!

Dan

Dan,

in the development process for any new Ferrari, most of the "hard" miles are driven on circuit (mainly Fiorano, but now also the new AutodroMo in Modena that is built specifically for that purpose). Only durability tests and pre-delivery are done on the road. The one most of the shots are taken from is a road that, as I said, is not really busy and where the local police closes an eye given the low traffic density and the limited dangers (last accident I remember is an F40 being smashed at the end of one straight some 26 years ago). Also, do you know that any test-driver whose license gets revoked is at serious risk of losing the job, according to the guidelines?
As for McLaren, I myself, know at least a couple of nice b roads from London leading towards Goodwood for example, where the chance of getting stopped by the police are pretty remote.... And if Surrey is not an option, i'm sure there's plenty of miles of tarmac in Wales or Scotland who could serve the purpose.

[bubney72]

McLaren have far more to worry about before they can compete with their setup. Firstly, design a car that looks good, and secondly, buy an engine that sounds and goes like a Ferrari. Maybe Maranello would even build and sell McLaren an engine.

[Rich_W]

I thought this was going to be an article about their new cars.

Round 1 : 12C vs 458

Round 2 :488 vs 650s (Presumably 675LT will run against the probably soon come 488 Scuderia/Speciale)

[suffolk009]

This article reads like a misty-eyed love-note from someone who just got back from Italy and enjoyed a bit of slap and tickle with a Ferrari.

[gregelvis]

The police around Maranello seem to turn a blind eye to a lot of 'official' Ferrari traffic as well as all of the tourists in rented Californias. Then again the police around Rome generally ignore the high speed convoys of 'ordinary' drivers in SUVs and battered hatchbacks blasting down the emergency lane to get past traffic jams.

[matsoc]

gregelvis said:

The police around Maranello seem to turn a blind eye to a lot of 'official' Ferrari traffic as well as all of the tourists in rented Californias. Then again the police around Rome generally ignore the high speed convoys of 'ordinary' drivers in SUVs and battered hatchbacks blasting down the emergency lane to get past traffic jams.

I don't think this is all true, yes mobile speed cameras tend to be always in the same places and a bit of speeding in some roads is almost tolerated but using emergency lanes is another story and I have seen countless of cars being stopped by Polizia or Carabinieri for that, they won't turn eyes in another direction.

[peregrin99]

About 100 yards from the exit of the Lamborghini factory at Sant'Agata is one of those "how fast are you driving" displays.

I was amused to see the cars leaving the factory for their shake-down test, and accelerating hard to that marker.

[dinkel]

bubney72 said:

McLaren have far more to worry about before they can compete with their setup. Firstly, design a car that looks good, and secondly, buy an engine that sounds and goes like a Ferrari. Maybe Maranello would even build and sell McLaren an engine.

True.

The F1 had a distinct sound. All Ferraris have a distinct sound.

McLaren lacks that signature sounding byte.

Think Lambo (V12) cry. Beemer (6) howl. Merc (6.3) roar.

[Goofnik]

"Less so now that even the Americans feel duty bound to benchmark their domestic product at the bloody Nurburgring."

Be glad we didn't do it back in the day. With gems like the 1987 Chevrolet Celebrity Eurosport VR. 145HP from a 3.3L V6 at a dizzying 4400rpm!



Wait, what? No, it's not a diesel. Yes, peak power at 4400rpm. Yes, less than 44HP per liter. ... you know, shaddup -- 'MERICA!

[anonymous-user]

Whilst i might have agreed with Dan, perhaps 15 years ago, these days, the complexity and interdependent nature of a modern cars chassis systems means the road testing really isn't on the agenda, except for validation / mileage accumulation.

In a modern chassis, so many things affect the dynamics ((active)diff settings, (active)dampers, geometry, kinematics, shell stiffness, (active) steering, engine mapping, transmisson mapping, stability / ABS systems, etc etc) that in order to bring, er order, to this chaos, the development process has to be data driven and crucially, that data must be repeatable and valid. Just going for a "quick spin to check the chassis" is not an option, and generally leads to one chasing ones tail, round in circles. Basic chassis attributes are set in the design / concept phase, and the tuning process is done iteratively in dynamic computer models (ADAMs etc), and with validation from test data.

Whilst the final sign off will include significant road mileage, often during in-territory testing (hot, cold, high etc), by this stage it's really to late to change too much!

[thelawnet1]

I regularly see McLarens on the dull A road outside their HQ. Perhaps they take them down to the twisties as well, there really isn't a shortage of them around Surrey, Surrey is in fact mostly empty (green belt laws).

If they are selling most McLarens in the UK, then the fact that they are tested here rather than in a random part of Italy is surely an advantage.