RE: Porsche 997 Carrera: Catch it while you can

RE: Porsche 997 Carrera: Catch it while you can

Thursday 25th June 2015

Porsche 997 Carrera: Catch it while you can

Take a brave pill and you could land a big 997 bargain just now...



'State of flux' is the best way to describe the febrile world of Porsche 911 values at the moment. With 993 prices now firmly following the classic 911 into the outer stratosphere, the old classified eyeglass inevitably falls on newer models.


You'd have to be some sort of uber-ostrich to not know that the water-cooled 996 and 997 Porsches have had their 'issues'. Scored pistons and disintegrating intermediate shaft (IMS) bearings have left owners with huge bills, and the reputation of water-cooled Porsches with a huge pall of burnt oil hanging over them.

As a result, values of 996s are on the floor. We're talking Boxster-level. As in £8K. 997s have rapidly followed the descent of the 996, and early ones are now as cheap as late 996s.

Dodging a bullet
Avoiding huge engine rebuild costs is what we all want. One way to dodge the blown-engine bullet is to buy a post-August 2008 'Gen 2' 997, with its DFI engine that doesn't have an intermediate shaft. But we're talking a minimum of £32K for a 2009 Gen 2 Carrera.


For £10K less, you can have a 2006-model 997 - but don't you run the risk of it costing you at least that much in repairs? Indeed, the price of a new engine could be as much as £15K from a Porsche dealer, maybe £10K from a specialist.

But there's some good news. Word is that those water-cooled woes have been much exaggerated, and engine failures in 'Gen 1' engines are in fact increasingly rare. And if you choose your 997 model wisely, it's perfectly possible to have a reliable 997 for very little outlay.

So which 997 is the best buy, then? I reckon it's the bog-standard Carrera 2 (as opposed to Carrera 2 S or 4/4 S models). So often, simple is best and that's definitely the case with the non-S Carrera. At 3.6 litres, its capacity is more modest than the 3.8 S engine, but it only sacrifices 30hp (325hp versus 355hp). It also revs more freely, and the base Carrera 2 lacks the S model's standard PASM adaptive damping, which many owners don't seem to like very much. The Carrera 2 is, in my view, a purer driving experience - and if the 911 is about anything, it's about driving purity.


Crucially, the 3.6 engine is also seemingly more reliable. It suffers fewer IMS failures than the S, say the people who fix them. Of course, that may be a simple corollary of the fact that the 3.8 S outsold the regular Carrera by three to one...

What about scored bores, which also afflict 'Gen 1' water-cooled 911s? Again, a lot of specialists say this problem is less common with the 3.6 engine than the 3.8 engine - perhaps because it's got thicker cylinder walls and is generally less stressed.

What price for the 997 dream?
I've now seen 997s going as cheaply as £18K. It's hard to argue that's not a huge bargain. A few specialists I've spoken to reckon prices are now starting to firm up for 997s, so I reckon now is definitely the time to buy.


Find a low-mileage early 997 Carrera 2 with manual transmission and a full history for £22K, and you've surely got one of the best current 911 deals of all. There's a 59K-mile 2006 example, for instance, up for £22,995. OK, it's silver (ho hum), but it's got extended leather, PSM sat nav, PASM dampers and S wheels, as well as a full OPC Porsche service history.

Go up to £24,950 and the classifieds yield a black example, with 51K miles, PSM and full black leather. It's also got a 12-month warranty, which if you're of a nervous disposition, will let you sleep easy. Loving the look of this £24,995 Midnight Blue one too.

Author
Discussion

NigelCayless

Original Poster:

201 posts

154 months

Thursday 25th June 2015
quotequote all
I bought a December 2004 registered 997 Carrera 2 with 50k on the clock in December 2014 I paid £18,500 privately. I spent c£200 on a Porsche check before I bought it which identified £1400 of work on the air-conditioning and an air bag which needed doing which the seller paid for. Touch wood, I've had no problems so far and am very happy with it. Can't say how it compares to the other faster 911 models but it is plenty quick enough and feels quicker than the 370z I had before.

Guvernator

13,103 posts

164 months

Thursday 25th June 2015
quotequote all
What I don't get is why more and more modern performance cars seem to suffer from these big issues and the Germans seem to be the worst? Porsche, BMW, Audi, Mercedes, they all seem to have their fair share of major issues on certain models. It got to a point once were almost every car I considered had some very expensive problem which could rear it's ugly head.

Surely like everyone else, the Germans put the test cars through hundreds of thousands of miles of testing prior to release? Are we saying that NOT ONCE did anyone pick up on these serious engine issues before the car was released? If so that's either very poor quality control or worse, they were noticed but ignored.



wadsy

369 posts

255 months

Thursday 25th June 2015
quotequote all
For more in-depth, researched information this is worth reading:

http://www.porscheinspections.com/content/download...

Cheers

Emeye

9,773 posts

222 months

Thursday 25th June 2015
quotequote all
Guvernator said:
What I don't get is why more and more modern performance cars seem to suffer from these big issues and the Germans seem to be the worst? Porsche, BMW, Audi, Mercedes, they all seem to have their fair share of major issues on certain models. It got to a point once were almost every car I considered had some very expensive problem which could rear it's ugly head.

Surely like everyone else, the Germans put the test cars through hundreds of thousands of miles of testing prior to release? Are we saying that NOT ONCE did anyone pick up on these serious engine issues before the car was released? If so that's either very poor quality control or worse, they were noticed but ignored.
It always makes me laugh how car reviewers always go on about the "high build quality" of german cars, yet as far as I can tell this is gathered from driving perfectly fettled test cars around smooth Spanish roads in glorious sunshine - they really have no idea about how the oily bits are going to get on, they just have a solid feeling dashboard and interior and lots of padding and sound insulation.

Porsche and the other german manufacturers are not making massive profits by building expensive cars - they are selling a product of a perceived higher quality at a higher price, but to make so much money they must have a very strong margin - .i.e. build them cheap sell them at a high price - the bits the customer can touch they spend the money on, making savings on the bits you can't see.

I'm sure it is not just a coincidence that Porsche and other companies like Merc started making lots of money followed by a reduction in quality of their products - even the 996 interior felt cheap, never mind the oily bits.

Perception, not reality - it's all about good marketing, and the marketeers, accountants and the health and safety police design the cars we drive these days - the engineers do the best they can with the limitations they are given.


Edited by Emeye on Friday 26th June 13:56

J4CKO

41,279 posts

199 months

Thursday 25th June 2015
quotequote all
anonymous said:
[redacted]
I think, in general cars are more likely to reach 200k than they were in the past, but I would take my chances on reaching that mileage in an Aygo better than a 911.

I think it is not so much complexity of the electronics, but more a combination of poor design or material selection, all cars have had ecu's since the eighties and personally I have never had an electronic issue, its always been mechanical, and a lot of that was down to a previous owners lack of care.

Car ownership has got more common across the social spectrum and genders, it used to be the preserve of the man of the family to fettle the family car fairly often, and they did need attention, plugs, points, condensors, de-cokes and this is where the 100k mental block comes from, in the seventies a car engine that had done 100k before a rebuild was a thing of wonder, but usually the body had rotted to bits before then.

Happyjap

382 posts

108 months

Thursday 25th June 2015
quotequote all
For me this look like orange jelly bean, it Lesbian car!!

Guvernator

13,103 posts

164 months

Thursday 25th June 2015
quotequote all
We are talking about cars that can develop very major issues before they hit 30k! I don't expect a car to last for ever but I do expect it to get to at least 70-80k without needing an engine\gearbox replacing at huge expense. Again surely this is stuff that endurance testing should pick up?

I think I agree with Emeye, penny pinching down to the nth degree is responsible for a lot of the problems modern cars suffer. Materials\components are chosen for their cheapness and to be just good enough rather than with a view to longevity. TVR went down the pan because of engine reliability woes, strange how Porsche got away with it relatively unharmed. I guess that's what having a huge marketing budget does for you.

james28

448 posts

202 months

Thursday 25th June 2015
quotequote all
I think spending 25k of your hard earned money on a dream car the last thing you want is worry about when the engine is about to implode.I owned a 997s with only 17k miles and it was fantastic.But reading all the horror stories and even down to the porsche mechanics saying they would never buy one was slightly worrying. I say buy at your peril but know that they do have problems but if your under any doubt get the car thoroughly tested.

Scottie - NW

1,284 posts

232 months

Thursday 25th June 2015
quotequote all
I think 997 prices are going to continue to slowly depreciate to similar levels as 996, not increase, and combined with the concerns it's enough to make me look elsewhere.

Shame really as they are a real favourite car of mine.

Guvernator

13,103 posts

164 months

Thursday 25th June 2015
quotequote all
Is there a permanent fix that can be done to stop these issues before they break? If you could spend 3-4k on preventative work which then meant you could enjoy one with peace of mind, that's probably the way I'd go.

Davey S2

13,073 posts

253 months

Thursday 25th June 2015
quotequote all
My old Cayman S suffered from 2 scored cylinder liners resulting in a bill for nearly £9K.

I'd never get another Porsche without a full OPC warranty.

You may get a good one and have no issues but it's a big and potentially very expensive gamble.

If you are looking at a cheap 911 and have £10K to keep for potential repairs then just buy a more expensive car without an engine made from chocolate.

minerva

756 posts

203 months

Thursday 25th June 2015
quotequote all
Does anyone have any realistic figures for how frequently this occurs?

The porsche racing championships (using Boxsters and a few 996 carreras) seem to have few issues, or, failing that, they keep them very quiet?

I see very few cars in the classifieds that cost as much as a 997 did brand new and have been able to withstand the mileage that these car have?! I had a 997.1 C2S, bought and sold at 55k and 81k. No problems at all. Obviously I could have been lucky, but I haven't seen an Audi R8 with anything like that number of miles on the clock and they have a stellar reputation for reliability.

In terms of other rivals, what have we that is that much more reliable?



Edited by minerva on Thursday 25th June 17:34

minerva

756 posts

203 months

Thursday 25th June 2015
quotequote all
Does anyone have any realistic figures for how frequently this occurs?

The porsche racing championships (using Boxsters and a few 996 carreras) seem to have few issues, or, failing that, they keep them very quiet?

I see very few cars in the classifieds that cost as much as a 997 did brand new and have been able to withstand the mileage that these car have?! I had a 997.1 C2S, bought and sold at 55k and 81k. No problems at all. Obviously I could have been lucky, but I haven't seen an Audi R8 with anything like that number of miles on the clock and they have a stellar reputation for reliability.

In terms of other rivals, what have we that is that much more reliable?



Edited by minerva on Thursday 25th June 17:48

charliedb2

74 posts

131 months

Thursday 25th June 2015
quotequote all
I have just bought a 997 gens C2S from a porsche dealer. I was looking for a good month or so both at 997's and 991's. One thing I found is that there seems to be a lack of 997 gen 2's on the market so costs are staying high. I guess it may well be to do with porsche not selling too many 911's between 2009 and 2011 when the economy was weak? Whether that will me Gen 2's stay higher than expected due to relative rarity (I know its not a GT3!) we will see.

Davey S2

13,073 posts

253 months

Thursday 25th June 2015
quotequote all
minerva said:
In terms of other rivals, what have we that is that much more reliable?



Edited by minerva on Thursday 25th June 17:34
Aston V8 Vantage?

Engines in those are apparently pretty bullet proof.

minerva

756 posts

203 months

Thursday 25th June 2015
quotequote all
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Thank you. I guess I knew that, really. That would also lend credence to the '3.8 engines suffer more than the 3.6' school of thought?

matsoc

853 posts

131 months

Thursday 25th June 2015
quotequote all
Emeye said:
Guvernator said:
What I don't get is why more and more modern performance cars seem to suffer from these big issues and the Germans seem to be the worst? Porsche, BMW, Audi, Mercedes, they all seem to have their fair share of major issues on certain models. It got to a point once were almost every car I considered had some very expensive problem which could rear it's ugly head.

Surely like everyone else, the Germans put the test cars through hundreds of thousands of miles of testing prior to release? Are we saying that NOT ONCE did anyone pick up on these serious engine issues before the car was released? If so that's either very poor quality control or worse, they were noticed but ignored.
It always makes me laugh how car reviewers always go on about the "high build quality" of german cars, yet as far as I can tell this is gathered from driving perfectly fettled test cars around smooth Spanish roads in glorious sunshine - they really have no idea about how the oily bits are going to get on, they just have a solid feeling dashboard and interior and lots of padding and sound insulation.

Porsche and the other german manufacturers are not making massive profits by making expensive cars - they are selling a product of a perceived higher quality at a higher price, but to make so much money they must have a very strong margin - .i.e. build them cheap sell them at a high price - the bits the customer can touch they spend the money on, making savings on the oily bits.

I'm sure it is not just a coincidence that Porsche and other companies like Merc started making lots of money followed by a reduction in quality of their products - even the 996 interior felt cheap, never mind the oily bits.

Perception, not reality - it's all about good marketing, and the marketeers, accountants and the health and safety police design the cars we drive these days - the engineers do the best they can with the limitations they are given.
There a lot of "new" limitations, this is true, but cars are better designed now that in the past. Bring down to pieces an older car and you can see many "ugly" solutions that you are not gonna find in a more modern car. The production processes are more stable, chaissis and poweetrains performance are increased and more repeatable than ever. In some areas the increase in complexity and the introduction of new solutions certainly made emerge new kind of issues but in general newer cars are more reliable.


minerva

756 posts

203 months

Thursday 25th June 2015
quotequote all
Davey S2 said:
minerva said:
In terms of other rivals, what have we that is that much more reliable?



Edited by minerva on Thursday 25th June 17:34
Aston V8 Vantage?

Engines in those are apparently pretty bullet proof.
Really? Are you sure that if one bought and ran a thousand AMV8s and a thousand 997s, one would be better off with the Astons instead of the Porsches? I'm not so sure. The 4.2L v8 may very well be 'bulletproof', but in terms of thr rest of the car? Mmmm..

minerva

756 posts

203 months

Thursday 25th June 2015
quotequote all
In terms of junior supercar, what can one buy which is more reliable? The 996 had a crappy interior, but compared to what?! The motoring press gave it a pretty good reception and Autocar (at least, if not all of them) where still very complimentary when it ceased production. The 997, when it came out, was Evo mag car of the year, which is pretty high praise(?!)

My point is, they may suffer failure rates of 1-5% (made up but I am not sure if anyone can correct me?) but they are brilliant, very fast cars and they are cheap to run compared to rivals.

Baryonyx

17,990 posts

158 months

Thursday 25th June 2015
quotequote all
The 996 was so much better looking, I'd seek one of those out, especially since either is likely to be a gamble.