GTM Libra engine options
Discussion
I thought I'd start a new thread as I seem to be hijacking ferg's thread with talk of engine options.
So, we have the 177bhp KV6 as an option, or Bertram's 1.8T making 'around' 250bhp or even more with suitable tuning from ABT or AmD.
There is also a Honda VTEC option, but I still can't get information on whether the 2.0L from the Civic Type-R would fit. I could contact the factory, but I'm not yet in a purchasing position and I don't want to bother them or indeed get their hopes up on thinking they have a lead on an iminent sale.
I think I'm going to need a power-to-weight ratio of around 300bhp/tonne so that I don't miss my Chimaera 500, which if I assume a kerb weight of around 800kg (seems reasonable given GTM website quotes 830kg for the KV6 and 790kg for the 1.8VVC touring) means I'll need at least 240bhp and as much torque as possible.
We're talking 1.8T, aren't we? Which is a pity, because I love V6's and V8's.
2.7L V6 twin-turbo from the Audi S4 or RS4 would be nice. I wonder how available they are and if it would fit.
Incidentally, I wonder how much the chassis can actually take. Anyone have any ideas?
So, we have the 177bhp KV6 as an option, or Bertram's 1.8T making 'around' 250bhp or even more with suitable tuning from ABT or AmD.
There is also a Honda VTEC option, but I still can't get information on whether the 2.0L from the Civic Type-R would fit. I could contact the factory, but I'm not yet in a purchasing position and I don't want to bother them or indeed get their hopes up on thinking they have a lead on an iminent sale.
I think I'm going to need a power-to-weight ratio of around 300bhp/tonne so that I don't miss my Chimaera 500, which if I assume a kerb weight of around 800kg (seems reasonable given GTM website quotes 830kg for the KV6 and 790kg for the 1.8VVC touring) means I'll need at least 240bhp and as much torque as possible.
We're talking 1.8T, aren't we? Which is a pity, because I love V6's and V8's.
2.7L V6 twin-turbo from the Audi S4 or RS4 would be nice. I wonder how available they are and if it would fit.
Incidentally, I wonder how much the chassis can actually take. Anyone have any ideas?
Well, the chassis is torsionally stiffer than the Lotus Elise if that gives any indication as to what the chassis will take. The new rear suspension components are also supposed to be almost twice as stiff as the previous versions.
Engine options - standard from the factory are 1.4, 1.6, 1.8 and 1.8VVC K series engines. The 2.5 KV6. Honda VTEC 1.6 and I know they have fitted a 1.8(?) Integra Type-R engine to one destined for Japan.
I haven't heard of anyone fitting the K20A although that would be interesting, especially as import engines run at 220 standard if I remember correctly. Seeing as a lot of people are converting Elises/Exiges from K to K20A, I can't see it being that horrendously difficult.
Bertram seems to be taking the most difficult route in that he's taking not only a brand new engine as yet unfitted to a Libra, but will also have to handle the heat of a turbo, intercooling, etc. Again, there's one guy I know of fitting 1.8Ts to Exiges so it's obviously possible.
One good thing about GTM is that they are open to new suggestions. IIRC, Bertram turned up at the GTM factory with a 1.8T, offered it up to the monocoque to see if it would fit and GTM then welded up brackets on an engine frame to fit the engine. But then it seems as though it's over to Bertram.
I personally will be sticking with a 1.8VVC (been tempted by DVA to go for a 1.9), DTH throttle bodies, Piper 285H cams, maybe forged pistons/rods (not quite sure on that yet), fully balanced and running an Emerald ECU. Might consider a supercharger in the future if I can find space for it in the engine bay.
For 240bhp, you've got modded 1.8T, s'charged or t'charged K, KV6, K20A.
Or if you've cash to splash, a 2.0 K series with 250 can be yours for about £15K or a QED 2.5 KV6 with 230ish.
Engine options - standard from the factory are 1.4, 1.6, 1.8 and 1.8VVC K series engines. The 2.5 KV6. Honda VTEC 1.6 and I know they have fitted a 1.8(?) Integra Type-R engine to one destined for Japan.
I haven't heard of anyone fitting the K20A although that would be interesting, especially as import engines run at 220 standard if I remember correctly. Seeing as a lot of people are converting Elises/Exiges from K to K20A, I can't see it being that horrendously difficult.
Bertram seems to be taking the most difficult route in that he's taking not only a brand new engine as yet unfitted to a Libra, but will also have to handle the heat of a turbo, intercooling, etc. Again, there's one guy I know of fitting 1.8Ts to Exiges so it's obviously possible.
One good thing about GTM is that they are open to new suggestions. IIRC, Bertram turned up at the GTM factory with a 1.8T, offered it up to the monocoque to see if it would fit and GTM then welded up brackets on an engine frame to fit the engine. But then it seems as though it's over to Bertram.
I personally will be sticking with a 1.8VVC (been tempted by DVA to go for a 1.9), DTH throttle bodies, Piper 285H cams, maybe forged pistons/rods (not quite sure on that yet), fully balanced and running an Emerald ECU. Might consider a supercharger in the future if I can find space for it in the engine bay.
For 240bhp, you've got modded 1.8T, s'charged or t'charged K, KV6, K20A.
Or if you've cash to splash, a 2.0 K series with 250 can be yours for about £15K or a QED 2.5 KV6 with 230ish.
Lexsport makes a good call in his historic 1000th post.
Why not fit the 1.8 VVC?
The answer is, as far as I can see, because I want to take it on the track. Even then Lex is pushing his power up, but retaining the 'K'.
My Libra stays firmly on the road (I do get on track sometimes, but in another car) and the only time I've felt like I needed a different engine was on the motorway and since that was from a noise point of view, probably only a V6 would have been more comfortable.
Why not fit the 1.8 VVC?
The answer is, as far as I can see, because I want to take it on the track. Even then Lex is pushing his power up, but retaining the 'K'.
My Libra stays firmly on the road (I do get on track sometimes, but in another car) and the only time I've felt like I needed a different engine was on the motorway and since that was from a noise point of view, probably only a V6 would have been more comfortable.
Ferg - my reasons are not especially track-day oriented.
It is more a case of knowing that I will miss the Chimaera 500 like crazy if I can't replace it with a car that comes close to it on acceleration.
I reckon that 300bhp/tonne (or as close as can be reasonably achieved for reasonable cost) is what it would take, although I'm more than happy to be proved wrong.
But you know as well as I will that I'll regret selling the Chimaera if I can't get blistering performance out of the Libra.
Cheers
Jon "acceleration junkie" RB.
It is more a case of knowing that I will miss the Chimaera 500 like crazy if I can't replace it with a car that comes close to it on acceleration.
I reckon that 300bhp/tonne (or as close as can be reasonably achieved for reasonable cost) is what it would take, although I'm more than happy to be proved wrong.
But you know as well as I will that I'll regret selling the Chimaera if I can't get blistering performance out of the Libra.
Cheers
Jon "acceleration junkie" RB.
I'd be interested to see what difference in, let's say, 0-80 mph acceleration you would get from a Turbo VAG engine over the DTH throttle bodied 'K' once the weight of the engine and intercooler have been taken into consideration and the, admittedly minimal, lag.
Don't get me wrong, each to their own and I know Bertram's having a great time building, but any modifications cost money over the straightforward fit of the 'K', fine if you like tinkering and fabricating and sourcing components, but it's all money which can be diverted in other directions.
Don't get me wrong, each to their own and I know Bertram's having a great time building, but any modifications cost money over the straightforward fit of the 'K', fine if you like tinkering and fabricating and sourcing components, but it's all money which can be diverted in other directions.
ferg said:Yes, but the 300-odd lb ft of torque does kind of make up for it.
You've gotta remember, weight is quite important in such a little thing......... it's not like that boat anchor in the front of the TVR.
BTW, I did drop the factory an email in the end. I mentioned it was just a speculative email but they were really nice about it, said that didn't matter and they were happy to help.
Anyway, official line is that the engines listed on their website are the only ones available as factory-built turnkey cars but they are aware of other engine options (esp. Bertram's 1.8T) and that other engines may be offered in the future but there were no plans at present.
So unless I'm going to suddenly develop mechanical ability (unlikely) it looks like KV6 power is the fastest available to me at present.
Still, since I have no idea what my timescales are at present then who knows what may or may not be available when I'm in a position to buy?
And at the rate that GTM are developing new bits and bobs, you never know what they're going to announce at the next show.
One thing I've just remembered - there is a guy out there rallying a stripped out Libra at circa 600Kg powered by a Honda Blackbird motor!
As for comparisons of acceleration, you might not quite get the same acceleration from a K engined Libra as a Chimp, but being lighter and mid engined, it should outcorner the old girl from Blackpool.
Take a trip down to Coventry one sunny spring day and take the V6 demonstrator out for a spin. But whatever you do, don't talk to Greg - after he's told you how GTM built the first V6 because he asked them too, he'll talk your wallet out of your pocket and before you know it you'll be waiting for delivery.
I blame my current state of destitution directly on looking at Greg's V6 at Donington and then Ferg talking me into the rest of the decision. 
And Ferg - thank you for pointing out the significance of my 1,000th post. I didn't care, sorry, hadn't noticed.
One thing I've just remembered - there is a guy out there rallying a stripped out Libra at circa 600Kg powered by a Honda Blackbird motor!
As for comparisons of acceleration, you might not quite get the same acceleration from a K engined Libra as a Chimp, but being lighter and mid engined, it should outcorner the old girl from Blackpool.
Take a trip down to Coventry one sunny spring day and take the V6 demonstrator out for a spin. But whatever you do, don't talk to Greg - after he's told you how GTM built the first V6 because he asked them too, he'll talk your wallet out of your pocket and before you know it you'll be waiting for delivery.
I blame my current state of destitution directly on looking at Greg's V6 at Donington and then Ferg talking me into the rest of the decision. And Ferg - thank you for pointing out the significance of my 1,000th post. I didn't care, sorry, hadn't noticed.
ferg said:
www.gtmcars.com/showroom.php?level=0&ad=6
Phwoar.
Note to self: cut up the credit cards - I could buy that with the credit limit of one of my cards.
Edit: I meant that in the sense of real temptation rather than bragging about credit card limits.
>> Edited by JonRB on Tuesday 1st February 18:09
LexSport said:
I haven't heard of anyone fitting the K20A although that would be interesting, especially as import engines run at 220 standard if I remember correctly. Seeing as a lot of people are converting Elises/Exiges from K to K20A, I can't see it being that horrendously difficult.
The factory uses the B16A Honda engines in their Honda option. This engine is different from the K20A, which does 200 Hp in european spec. The Japanese spec K20A makes 220 Hp, but requires 100 octane fuel. Not very practical in Holland, 100 octane is only avialable at airports as AVgas (aviation fuel). The Libra kit is modified for the B16A engines; the trailing wishbones are less wide to allow for the longer engine. Dunno if the new rear suspension kit is suitable for the Honda engine option. The K20A is quite big. I don't know if it will fit, I do doubt it to be honest.
I did not go the K20A route mainly because of the engine characteristics. This engine is somewhat like a motorcycle engine, big power at big revs. Not my cup of tea, but many people like it that way.
LexSport said:
Bertram seems to be taking the most difficult route in that he's taking not only a brand new engine as yet unfitted to a Libra, but will also have to handle the heat of a turbo, intercooling, etc. Again, there's one guy I know of fitting 1.8Ts to Exiges so it's obviously possible.
It is not as bad as it seems, honest. I am having a really great time building this car. I build it step by step. Fitting the engine was quite easy, getting the gearchange to work is a bit harder. I bought a brand new engine from Audi. The guys at Audi are so enthiousiastic that they offered me to help me with the final integration of the engine in the car. When the car is on it's wheels I will take it to Audi to do the electrics (they will make me a wiring loom to fit the Libra) and stuff like the intercooler etc.
LexSport said:
One good thing about GTM is that they are open to new suggestions. IIRC, Bertram turned up at the GTM factory with a 1.8T, offered it up to the monocoque to see if it would fit and GTM then welded up brackets on an engine frame to fit the engine. But then it seems as though it's over to Bertram.
Well, it was almost like that. I went to GTM with a borrowed Audi engine (was not sure if it would fit, remember...), and spend a day with GTM trying to get it in. GTM made a small modification to the engine frame on my request (welded the cross bar in 2 inches lower than normal). I designed and made the engine brackets myself. If anyone is interested, I made some ACAD drawing that you can have.
In the picture the body of the current V6 demonstrator with my borrowed engine fitted.
Biulding a car like this certainly is a challenge, but i can ensure you, it is great fun. Not cheap BTW... Come one, you know you want to !!
This is what mine looks like by now:
I am really sorry that my website is in Dutch, but it will take too much time now to change it all to english. Maybe a translation service like http://babelfish.altavista.com/ can help out ??
My website adress is www.b_bakker.dds.nl/index.htm
I build a Westfield 2 years ago. details here: http://home.planet.nl/~bertram.bakker/index2.htm
>> Edited by Bertram on Wednesday 2nd February 18:53
Thanks for the info, Bertram. Sounds very exciting!
I had an interesting comment on your build from another Libra owner who said
"Betram is taking a lot on by going his own route but he seems to have the knowledge and skill to do it. I would discount the Audi/VW route straight off as its going to be a 'special' unless Betram is planning to sell on his knowledge!"
So is this going to be a 'one-off' Betram, or do you see yourself as blazing a trail for future 1.8T Libras?
I had an interesting comment on your build from another Libra owner who said
"Betram is taking a lot on by going his own route but he seems to have the knowledge and skill to do it. I would discount the Audi/VW route straight off as its going to be a 'special' unless Betram is planning to sell on his knowledge!"
So is this going to be a 'one-off' Betram, or do you see yourself as blazing a trail for future 1.8T Libras?
JonRB,
I would not mind at all to make a business out of building 20VT Libra's. I am affraid though that building 20VT Libra's is not profitable enough to make a living out off. I expect to spend something like 1200 Hrs to complete my car (just a rough estimate, twice as long as it took me to build my Westfield). 1200 Hrs is 30 weeks full time work. Now who is going to pay that much extra for a 20VT Libra ?? I think nobody. I will sell the Libra a few months after it is finished since building a car is more fun to me than driving it (I get bored when there is no project in my garage...). My car is LHD though...
If anyone wants to build a car like mine I an willing to help by supplying information on suppliers, drawings of components that I got made etc...
The factory told me that they find my project very interesting, but that they will wait for me to finish my build before even considering the 20VT engine as an option. Someone else has succeeded before at GTM to get a car made with the engine he wanted....
Chris Cole has worked with the 20VT engine while working for Volkswagen a lot, so I think it is not impossible....
Bye,
Bertram
I would not mind at all to make a business out of building 20VT Libra's. I am affraid though that building 20VT Libra's is not profitable enough to make a living out off. I expect to spend something like 1200 Hrs to complete my car (just a rough estimate, twice as long as it took me to build my Westfield). 1200 Hrs is 30 weeks full time work. Now who is going to pay that much extra for a 20VT Libra ?? I think nobody. I will sell the Libra a few months after it is finished since building a car is more fun to me than driving it (I get bored when there is no project in my garage...). My car is LHD though...
If anyone wants to build a car like mine I an willing to help by supplying information on suppliers, drawings of components that I got made etc...
The factory told me that they find my project very interesting, but that they will wait for me to finish my build before even considering the 20VT engine as an option. Someone else has succeeded before at GTM to get a car made with the engine he wanted....
Chris Cole has worked with the 20VT engine while working for Volkswagen a lot, so I think it is not impossible....
Bye,
Bertram
Bertram said:Yep, very true. Maybe we'll see a 20VT in the factory options list at some stage, eh? That would be good.
The factory told me that they find my project very interesting, but that they will wait for me to finish my build before even considering the 20VT engine as an option. Someone else has succeeded before at GTM to get a car made with the engine he wanted....
All the best Bertram - I'm sure lots of people including myself will be watching your build progress with interest.
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