RE: Alfa Romeo 164 V6: Spotted
Tuesday 29th September 2015
With the Giulia apparently not far off, interest and excitement is once more piqued in four-door Alfa saloons. Especially the red ones. No further excuse required to talk about the 164.
Definitely resprayed thenWe would have done so sooner but they're just so damn rare. When was the last time you saw an Alfa 164? And no, Shed doesn't count. It's amazing to think they're now so scarce given Alfa sold 250,000 of them from 1989 to 1998. Rust shouldn't have been an issue either given they were galvanised and Alfa's durability testing involved the Paris-Dakar route. Have electrical gremlins claimed the best of them? Howmanyleft has just 133 cars registered in the UK...
Probably the best angleThere you will see a man who owns four other Alfa Romeos, including a pair of 6s and a Giulietta. He is most probably what you would describe as a staunch enthusiast of the brand and just the kind of PHer you would want to buy an Alfa from. As the most recent Shed 164 story concluded: 'Alfa sickness is one of the best diseases you can get.' This PHer is also a top lurker, having posted only four times since 2008. Mr Chris Cousins, we need to hear more about your 164!
MmmBut it's also a third more expensive despite similar mileages over 100,000. And while we won't go down the passion and character and Italian argument, there is something cooler about owning an Alfa than a BMW. See the excitement around the Giulia for proof of that.
Alfa Romeo 164 V6: Spotted
Look what happens when 164s are saved from the Shed doldrums!
Definitely resprayed then
But let's not bemoan the lack of 164s and instead celebrate this very nice example. Yes, for the true link to the Giulia it would be a 159 or a 156 but why feature one of those when we could wax lyrical about a 164?
Initially the advert for this 164 V6 is a little disappointing, seeming a little short on detail. But everything you would want to know is there, including a recent cambelt change, few owners and a long MOT. It's even been resprayed. The images are comprehensive and then in the corner of the screen you'll see a link to this PHer's profile and, well, who wouldn't have a look?
Probably the best angle
That aside for a second, why else would you want a 164? The looks must be a part of it. Yes, it's not a classical beauty in the Alfa tradition but it's distinctive and well-proportioned, plus it looks a hell of a lot better than the Fiat Croma which was also built on the Tipo 4 platform. Its style also influenced the mid-90s GTV and Spider (see that rear light strip) and who's going to argue against those being pretty cars?
That durability testing mentioned earlier was implemented because Alfa needed something tough to take on the established, reliable Germans. Now, 25 years later, the 5 Series is still a tempting alternative. This 535i is a manual Sport with a comprehensive history, seemingly excellent condition and - of course - rear-wheel drive too. Oh yeah, and the stripes vacuumed in the carpet. Nice.
Mmm
Finally, if you want a slice of more affordable 90s Alfa, this 155 is temptingly close to Shed's threshold. Again owned by an Alfa aficionado - it's being sold due to the arrival of a 156 GTA - the 155 is red and, like its big brother, square but stylish too. We're spoilt for choice!
ALFA ROMEO 164 3.0 V6 LUSSO
Engine: 2,959cc, V6
Transmission: 5-speed manual, front-wheel drive
Power (hp): 210@6,300rpm
Torque (lb ft): 199@5,000rpm
MPG: 20.9
CO2: 277g/km
First registered: 1991
Recorded mileage: 125,000
Price new: N/A
Yours for: £4,495
Check the advert here.
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[Specs: Carfolio]
Discussion
" This 535i... [is] ...also a third more expensive despite similar mileages over 100,000."
yeah, but considering the Alfa is a private sale and the BMW is from one of the more ambitious dealers, that's just the trade margin talking surely
I like them both, having enjoyed both back when they were new. I imagine the BMW is much easier to keep running in terms of support and spares. But would love to think the Alfa could be kept going in the good condition it looks to be in.
yeah, but considering the Alfa is a private sale and the BMW is from one of the more ambitious dealers, that's just the trade margin talking surely
I like them both, having enjoyed both back when they were new. I imagine the BMW is much easier to keep running in terms of support and spares. But would love to think the Alfa could be kept going in the good condition it looks to be in.
If I wanted a characterful old 4 door saloon .....
http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/j...
http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/j...
GranCab said:
Corrected...It is overpriced a bit. But, yes, people that want them just want them and it'll sell. However, when there's a Brera 3.2 V6 Q4 or 156 GTA listed for the same money? I know what I'd buy if I wanted a cheaper Alfa.
Edited by Ali_T on Tuesday 29th September 18:15
MantaMike said:
The first thing that comes into my mind whenever I see a 164 is this. 
This is the best Alfa ever made:http://www.topgear.com/car-news/supercar/best-alfa...
soad said:
This is the best Alfa ever made:
http://www.topgear.com/car-news/supercar/best-alfa...
I really surprised it was made in RHD. Was it built in the uk or would there have been a technical/regulation reason for it?http://www.topgear.com/car-news/supercar/best-alfa...
GJR68 said:
I'd say £4495 isn't too far off. Rarity, V6 and originality all work in its favour. They have a bit of a loyal following with the Alfisti and will always have a potential buyer.
Very true. OK, here goes! In 2002, I needed to buy something to replace the Rover 827 family bus following my divorce. I happened to spot this 24V 164 Cloverleaf (pictured below) in an advert and thought it looked a bit 'left-field' being white instead of the usual Alfa red.So, a little on a whim, I purchased it as a stop-gap car pending the future arrival of my 'perfect' Fiat Coupe 20V Turbo which I was busy hunting down at the time.
Fast forward thirteen years (during which the Fiat Coupe never materialized) and my 1993 24V 164 Cloverleaf has gone from 77,000 to 193,000 miles (original engine still delivers) and has been a professional working car all its life, living outdoors 365 days per year.
In those thirteen years I've spent (and it shocked me when totting it up!) £28K (yep, twenty-eight thousand pounds) on upkeep, maintenance and a kind of 'rolling restoration' and that hasn't included petrol, tyres, insurance, tax, etc (all the things that apply to any car). I must add that £5K of that figure (or thereabouts) is obviously VAT so God knows I've done my bit for the British economy!
I would also add that I've just spent five years grafting to get rid of my interest-only mortgage (ONCE AND FOR ALL!) and pretty much living like a hermit to do so. I say this to make the point (hopefully!) that I don't splash money carelessly around.
So, why have I spent so much on this (to many people out there) 'boring old big Alfa saloon'? Quite simply, the 230 BHP 24V 164 Cloverleaf is, hand on heart, one of the most underrated performance cars of all time. I wasn't expecting it when I bought it but that's what it's turned out to be. If you've never considered a large-ish FWD executive saloon weighing 1500kg to be 'Evo' then I give you my number one on a extremely short short-list.
Forget the official performance figures for a minute (0-60 MPH in around 7 secs/Top speed 149 MPH). Once you get the car rolling (it's not good at brutal standing starts) it will constantly surprise and delight you. That Busso V6 just never seems to run out of breath and always rejoices in a fast lunge for the 7,000 RPM redline. This car does its best work from 70-140 MPH and of course sings beautifully whilst doing it.
I once arrived behind a Porsche 911 Turbo (997) doing 100 and sat quietly behind him. The driver noticed and squirted the 911 on to 120 and, dropping into fourth, the 164 was, in a very few seconds behind him again. Then the same again to 140 whereupon the Porsche decided to disappear into the distance - which, of course, he had no trouble doing but not before I watched a cloud of sh^t pour continuously out of the 911's exhausts for a solid five seconds as the cats religiously cleaned themselves out. So, for what it's worth, the 164 Cloverleaf has a hidden talent for tuning Porsches!
I lost third gear completely following a determined tussle with an Audi RS4 which necessitated a gearbox rebuild but that's the trouble with the 'Leaf - it will resolutely go into battle even knowing that it's going to come out with a bloodied nose. This thing just has inexhaustible spirit.
It also has a truly pedigree chassis. I'm sure plenty of you know the A39 between Porlock and Lynton & Lynmouth - a section of moorland road which will throw everything going at a car including cattle grids and the famous 1 in 4 Porlock Hill. Ever since I was a bartender one summer in Porlock Weir back in 1977 as a student this road has been the handling benchmark for every car I've owned and I did think the 164 would come unstuck here. It didn't. The steering stays tight and true, the handling doesn't degrade, the car doesn't run wide, it doesn't run out of brakes nor ever 'bottom out' on the bumps and dips. It really does remain a faithful driver in extremis. You need to use the gearbox when hustling such roads because the car has a tall final drive so use and enjoy it - double de-clutching down into first for slow bends soon becomes second nature and easy with it.
Styling-wise I admire its Pininfarina looks - simple, elegant and (80's skirts aside perhaps!) cohesive. Behind the wheel the car always feels special. You feel special driving it.
The 'piece de resistance' (for me anyway) is that the car is almost totally invisible, completely off the radar. I like that. I can leave it anywhere knowing that no harm will come to it. Both the good guys and the bad guys will walk and drive past a 164 - oblivious to it. Suits me!
What can kill the 164 is the rear suspension sub-frame (tiny thing like an overly large coat hanger!). Virtually impossible to source now and usually just as impossible to get a rotten one off. A full suspension re-build is pretty eye-watering too with the two-position electronic damping. Plus, of course, the 164 is currently in NeverLand between modern but old car and recognised and supported classic. Will its time come one day?
Anyway, I didn't seek to become 'Alfisti', I never wanted to become 'Alfisti'. I was always a Fiat/Lancia enthusiast (still am) having owned Fiat 124 Sports Coupes, Mirafiori Sports, Strada Abarths, Lancia Montecarlo's even X1/9's.
I've only ever owned ONE Alfa Romeo and look what it's done to me...
For those among you who have perhaps wondered what this word 'Alfisti' really means, I hope I have maybe clarified it for you in some way. It's a kind of illness, condition, disease even - just a wonderfully seductive and addictive one.
I've heard that there's a clinic in Switzerland where, for an exhorbitant fee, they can treat 'Alfisti'. The dilemma is that if you ARE one (as in you run an Alfa) you can afford to run your Alfa - OR you can afford to go to this clinic - you can't afford to do both!
Apparently, the clinic is next door to Dignitas - oh, or maybe it is Dignitas....
Edited by firebird350 on Tuesday 29th September 23:39
I love the sound of the Busso V6, one of the last truly evocative noises out there. I much prefer the 166's styling though... does either torque- or under-steer appreciably, with a thumping big six-pot slung out up front, driving the front?
...oh, for the days when one had a genuine choice of markedly different offerings in each market sector!
GranCab said:
If I wanted a characterful old 4 door saloon... http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/j...
Yes, very nice, just a totally different proposition to the Alfa - a waftmobile designed to cosset on British roads with the ultimate in refinement. The Alfa is a snarling bruiser in comparison, I'd have thought, with little more subtlety than a Mafia boss making unspecific but nevertheless dire threats against you......oh, for the days when one had a genuine choice of markedly different offerings in each market sector!
Edited by RoverP6B on Wednesday 30th September 03:24
Drove a 164 Cloverleaf for a few years (black, cream interior).
So many issues. Trim falling off, massive torque steer that ate tyres, buttons stopped working, the active suspension losing connection to the ECU all the time, stupid designed PAS pipe falling off and dragging down the road.
Wasn't quick, was barely economical (still better than the MR2 Turbo I had at the same time).
Think my parents may still have it in a garage somewhere.
So many issues. Trim falling off, massive torque steer that ate tyres, buttons stopped working, the active suspension losing connection to the ECU all the time, stupid designed PAS pipe falling off and dragging down the road.
Wasn't quick, was barely economical (still better than the MR2 Turbo I had at the same time).
Think my parents may still have it in a garage somewhere.
Edited by Bibbs on Wednesday 30th September 06:24
firebird350 said:
GJR68 said:
I'd say £4495 isn't too far off. Rarity, V6 and originality all work in its favour. They have a bit of a loyal following with the Alfisti and will always have a potential buyer.
Very true. OK, here goes! In 2002, I needed to buy something to replace the Rover 827 family bus following my divorce. I happened to spot this 24V 164 Cloverleaf (pictured below) in an advert and thought it looked a bit 'left-field' being white instead of the usual Alfa red.So, a little on a whim, I purchased it as a stop-gap car pending the future arrival of my 'perfect' Fiat Coupe 20V Turbo which I was busy hunting down at the time.
Fast forward thirteen years (during which the Fiat Coupe never materialized) and my 1993 24V 164 Cloverleaf has gone from 77,000 to 193,000 miles (original engine still delivers) and has been a professional working car all its life, living outdoors 365 days per year.
In those thirteen years I've spent (and it shocked me when totting it up!) £28K (yep, twenty-eight thousand pounds) on upkeep, maintenance and a kind of 'rolling restoration' and that hasn't included petrol, tyres, insurance, tax, etc (all the things that apply to any car). I must add that £5K of that figure (or thereabouts) is obviously VAT so God knows I've done my bit for the British economy!
I would also add that I've just spent five years grafting to get rid of my interest-only mortgage (ONCE AND FOR ALL!) and pretty much living like a hermit to do so. I say this to make the point (hopefully!) that I don't splash money carelessly around.
So, why have I spent so much on this (to many people out there) 'boring old big Alfa saloon'? Quite simply, the 230 BHP 24V 164 Cloverleaf is, hand on heart, one of the most underrated performance cars of all time. I wasn't expecting it when I bought it but that's what it's turned out to be. If you've never considered a large-ish FWD executive saloon weighing 1500kg to be 'Evo' then I give you my number one on a extremely short short-list.
Forget the official performance figures for a minute (0-60 MPH in around 7 secs/Top speed 149 MPH). Once you get the car rolling (it's not good at brutal standing starts) it will constantly surprise and delight you. That Busso V6 just never seems to run out of breath and always rejoices in a fast lunge for the 7,000 RPM redline. This car does its best work from 70-140 MPH and of course sings beautifully whilst doing it.
I once arrived behind a Porsche 911 Turbo (997) doing 100 and sat quietly behind him. The driver noticed and squirted the 911 on to 120 and, dropping into fourth, the 164 was, in a very few seconds behind him again. Then the same again to 140 whereupon the Porsche decided to disappear into the distance - which, of course, he had no trouble doing but not before I watched a cloud of sh^t pour continuously out of the 911's exhausts for a solid five seconds as the cats religiously cleaned themselves out. So, for what it's worth, the 164 Cloverleaf has a hidden talent for tuning Porsches!
I lost third gear completely following a determined tussle with an Audi RS4 which necessitated a gearbox rebuild but that's the trouble with the 'Leaf - it will resolutely go into battle even knowing that it's going to come out with a bloodied nose. This thing just has inexhaustible spirit.
It also has a truly pedigree chassis. I'm sure plenty of you know the A39 between Porlock and Lynton & Lynmouth - a section of moorland road which will throw everything going at a car including cattle grids and the famous 1 in 4 Porlock Hill. Ever since I was a bartender one summer in Porlock Weir back in 1977 as a student this road has been the handling benchmark for every car I've owned and I did think the 164 would come unstuck here. It didn't. The steering stays tight and true, the handling doesn't degrade, the car doesn't run wide, it doesn't run out of brakes nor ever 'bottom out' on the bumps and dips. It really does remain a faithful driver in extremis. You need to use the gearbox when hustling such roads because the car has a tall final drive so use and enjoy it - double de-clutching down into first for slow bends soon becomes second nature and easy with it.
Styling-wise I admire its Pininfarina looks - simple, elegant and (80's skirts aside perhaps!) cohesive. Behind the wheel the car always feels special. You feel special driving it.
The 'piece de resistance' (for me anyway) is that the car is almost totally invisible, completely off the radar. I like that. I can leave it anywhere knowing that no harm will come to it. Both the good guys and the bad guys will walk and drive past a 164 - oblivious to it. Suits me!
What can kill the 164 is the rear suspension sub-frame (tiny thing like an overly large coat hanger!). Virtually impossible to source now and usually just as impossible to get a rotten one off. A full suspension re-build is pretty eye-watering too with the two-position electronic damping. Plus, of course, the 164 is currently in NeverLand between modern but old car and recognised and supported classic. Will its time come one day?
Anyway, I didn't seek to become 'Alfisti', I never wanted to become 'Alfisti'. I was always a Fiat/Lancia enthusiast (still am) having owned Fiat 124 Sports Coupes, Mirafiori Sports, Strada Abarths, Lancia Montecarlo's even X1/9's.
I've only ever owned ONE Alfa Romeo and look what it's done to me...
For those among you who have perhaps wondered what this word 'Alfisti' really means, I hope I have maybe clarified it for you in some way. It's a kind of illness, condition, disease even - just a wonderfully seductive and addictive one.
I've heard that there's a clinic in Switzerland where, for an exhorbitant fee, they can treat 'Alfisti'. The dilemma is that if you ARE one (as in you run an Alfa) you can afford to run your Alfa - OR you can afford to go to this clinic - you can't afford to do both!
Apparently, the clinic is next door to Dignitas - oh, or maybe it is Dignitas....
Edited by firebird350 on Tuesday 29th September 23:39
kapiteinlangzaam said:
LotusOmega375D said:
Yours for: £4,495
Jesus Christ.
It's not worth 10% of that!
You are very, very wrong. But hey, moronic comments are the order of the day on PH lately.Jesus Christ.
It's not worth 10% of that!
The seller will get asking, or close to it.
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