RE: Shaddap you face: PH Blog
Saturday 7th November 2015
It's possible I'm getting a little obsessed about this but the fake noise pumped through the speakers of the M4 and M5 would - I think - be deal breakers for me. It's also one of my biggest problems with the Golf R; an ever-present reminder to me that whatever talents it may have there's a lot of electronic noise and artifice between you and what the car is actually up to.
Plug and play takes on another meaning!Engine noise matters, especially in the turbo age. A sense of where you are in the rev range and what load you're putting on the engine through your choice of gear and throttle is the kind of nuance you depend upon, especially in a car like the M4 whose power delivery can be so abrupt. In the Golf the binary throttle and flat noise are merely an annoyance; it'll just grip and go. In the M4 it could mean the difference between sideways or straight ahead.
Not as easy as the Internet said...Why so squeamish though? The Japanese positively encourage turbo noise, even when it 'replaces' cherished character like VTEC revviness. Check out the way the Civic Type R celebrates its forced induction in both sound and power delivery. I've said as much before but the noise of the classic Skyline twin-turbo straight-six is magnificent and something BMW would have done well to study before trying to stifle the M4's similarly configured motor.
A very good now made better!Now it's done I'm a very happy man. The angry, guttural cold start-up on the M4 has always sounded cool and though it's 'quieter' overall inside now the sound is much more natural and purely from the exhaust. It now sounds like a revvy straight-six M BMW, not a video game. I'm sure with an aftermarket exhaust it'd be even better. And nor does it bore into your head via the speakers when accelerating hard in Sport or Sport Plus mode. With the stereo off and on a cold or misty day you catch just a hint of turbo sound too. As a result I now feel much more connected to the car and my enjoyment of it is transformed.
Shaddap you face: PH Blog
There's little love for BMW's Active Sound Design on PH; Dan takes matters into his own hands with the PH Fleet M4
Plug and play takes on another meaning!
Why this effort to gag the engine? It's almost as if the Germans are ashamed of having to resort to turbos; in AMG's case it reads as a betrayal of the devotion to cubic capacity, in BMW's an enforced move from singing throttle bodies and zingy, high-revving motors. So they try and drown the turbos out, AMG with outrageous amounts of exhaust noise, M with 'Active Sound Design' through the speakers. The latter is apparently amplified 'real' engine noise but the electronic equivalent of sticking a piece of card in the spokes of your bike. And I stopped doing that when I was about eight years old.
Not as easy as the Internet said...
Anyway. Fed up of the artificial blare from 'my' M4 and inspired by a post by PHer RossP in the thread following our comparison with the C63 I followed a link to Bimmerpost about how to disable Active Sound Design. Seemingly if your M3 or M4 has the optional Harman Kardon audio system - the PH Fleet M4 does - it's just a case of removing a plug from the standalone ASD amp. I say 'just' - the chap who posted the how-to on Bimmerpost skimmed over the fact for proper access you have to remove most of the boot liner. I managed it through a combination of skinned knuckles and swearing.
A very good now made better!
We were at Brands last week and I did laps with ASD on and off which you can watch below; the difference is harder to detect on the vid than it is in real life but if you've got an M3 or M4 with the Harman Kardon stereo I'd suggest you at least try it. I won't be plugging it back in, for sure.
Dan
Vid here.
 |
 |
Photos: Tim Brown/Tom Begley/Dan
[Sources: Bimmerpost]
Discussion
I find this somewhat interesting whilst a little baffling as although not an owner of the said M4/3, i do own an F10 M5 & for the life of me i'm yet to hear this piped engine noise i hear (mainly journalists) speak about.
Mine is a late MY14, so perhaps by then BMW had decided it was a tad pointless & turned this feature down, as i've listened to my car on the move from every functional seat inside the car & heard it from many angles on the outside, however all i can hear are the actual noises the car's making from the front (engine) & rear (standard exhaust). When driving the car in her softest settings i hear next to no external noise & when i bury the naughty pedal i hear real noise.
This naturally has been tried & tested in many tunnels both home & abroad & of course with the required windows lowered & sunroof open & all i again hear is real noise reverberating off the tunnel walls. Now unless the F10 M5 has speakers on the outside to mimic & amplify sound, i can't see where/when this false noise appears?
My car does have the upgraded HK sound system so perhaps may try you're said unplug/play, but i'd before doing this be welcome of some explanation as to how/where/when this fakery occurs, as if it indeed does then perhaps my ears may be in need of a middle aged viagra like pick me up.
Mine is a late MY14, so perhaps by then BMW had decided it was a tad pointless & turned this feature down, as i've listened to my car on the move from every functional seat inside the car & heard it from many angles on the outside, however all i can hear are the actual noises the car's making from the front (engine) & rear (standard exhaust). When driving the car in her softest settings i hear next to no external noise & when i bury the naughty pedal i hear real noise.
This naturally has been tried & tested in many tunnels both home & abroad & of course with the required windows lowered & sunroof open & all i again hear is real noise reverberating off the tunnel walls. Now unless the F10 M5 has speakers on the outside to mimic & amplify sound, i can't see where/when this false noise appears?
My car does have the upgraded HK sound system so perhaps may try you're said unplug/play, but i'd before doing this be welcome of some explanation as to how/where/when this fakery occurs, as if it indeed does then perhaps my ears may be in need of a middle aged viagra like pick me up.
Because it's amplified real sound (as I understand it) there is at least a correlation between noise produced mechanically and that played over the speakers but it's still not - to my feeling - authentic. In both M3/M4 and M5 I've noticed it most under hard acceleration with the engine in Sport or Sport Plus mode, windows up. It's admittedly subtle but still sounds 'wrong' and once you've noticed it does your head in; kind of a piercing yet unnatural resonance that comes from all around you rather than the rear of the car as it would if it were a 'proper' noisy exhaust. The depressing thing is that all the cars sound brilliant from the outside! It's even more extreme in the i8, which has an even more exaggerated interpretation when you go into the Sport mode. Again, it sounds really good from the outside though!
If you've not noticed it and it doesn't bother you then keep it that way I'd say!
Cheers,
Dan
If you've not noticed it and it doesn't bother you then keep it that way I'd say!
Cheers,
Dan
Dan Trent said:
Because it's amplified real sound (as I understand it) there is at least a correlation between noise produced mechanically and that played over the speakers but it's still not - to my feeling - authentic. In both M3/M4 and M5 I've noticed it most under hard acceleration with the engine in Sport or Sport Plus mode, windows up. It's admittedly subtle but still sounds 'wrong' and once you've noticed it does your head in; kind of a piercing yet unnatural resonance that comes from all around you rather than the rear of the car as it would if it were a 'proper' noisy exhaust. The depressing thing is that all the cars sound brilliant from the outside! It's even more extreme in the i8, which has an even more exaggerated interpretation when you go into the Sport mode. Again, it sounds really good from the outside though!
If you've not noticed it and it doesn't bother you then keep it that way I'd say!
Cheers,
Dan
I understand the explanation & it does ring a bell with my readings prior to getting the M5, but i really really can't hear any amplification of any noise inside the cabin & if it really does exist it must be so subtle that in reality it's pointless. With the Audio system off i can hear next to nothing in the car at cruising speeds & when i do opt to engage play mode (Sport/Sport Plus), the car does of course become more audible, but none of this appears to emanate from the speakers & this is further proven when you open the windows & can really hear the cars aural outputs. Perhaps then it's just me, however i've asked passengers when on the road & on track if they can spot this fakery & as yet i've had a big fat NO, so perhaps mine's broken.If you've not noticed it and it doesn't bother you then keep it that way I'd say!
Cheers,
Dan
My neighbour has one of these, quite possibly the worst cold start noise ever!!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdQJdnaERgo
Sounds like a lawnmower from outside, assume the speakers make it sound like an e92 M3 on the inside
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdQJdnaERgo
Sounds like a lawnmower from outside, assume the speakers make it sound like an e92 M3 on the inside
There is a A LOT more detail here on BMW's M Power page, specifically relating to the M3/M4 system with an explanation of how the exhaust is routed differently according to the mode (Comfort/Sport/Sport Plus) and therefore impacts on the noise OUTSIDE of the car. It's a little more vague when discussing how it's transmitted to the interior and hints at electronic enhancement without specifically saying it's done via the speakers.
Safe to assume I think much of this will apply to the M5 too. So, yes, the engine is louder from the outside if you're in Sport or Sport Plus or under specific throttle loadings. And there is a mechanical element to how the sound is enhanced, contrived or however you want to put it. Which is why by unplugging the ASD amp you can still hear a fair bit of exhaust noise from the inside, more so in Sport and Sport Plus. The important thing for me is that it sounds more natural, rather than some sort of CIA noise terror 'enhanced interrogation' technique.
Cheers,
Dan
Safe to assume I think much of this will apply to the M5 too. So, yes, the engine is louder from the outside if you're in Sport or Sport Plus or under specific throttle loadings. And there is a mechanical element to how the sound is enhanced, contrived or however you want to put it. Which is why by unplugging the ASD amp you can still hear a fair bit of exhaust noise from the inside, more so in Sport and Sport Plus. The important thing for me is that it sounds more natural, rather than some sort of CIA noise terror 'enhanced interrogation' technique.
Cheers,
Dan
Dan Trent said:
There is a A LOT more detail here on BMW's M Power page, specifically relating to the M3/M4 system with an explanation of how the exhaust is routed differently according to the mode (Comfort/Sport/Sport Plus) and therefore impacts on the noise OUTSIDE of the car. It's a little more vague when discussing how it's transmitted to the interior and hints at electronic enhancement without specifically saying it's done via the speakers.
Safe to assume I think much of this will apply to the M5 too. So, yes, the engine is louder from the outside if you're in Sport or Sport Plus or under specific throttle loadings. And there is a mechanical element to how the sound is enhanced, contrived or however you want to put it. Which is why by unplugging the ASD amp you can still hear a fair bit of exhaust noise from the inside, more so in Sport and Sport Plus. The important thing for me is that it sounds more natural, rather than some sort of CIA noise terror 'enhanced interrogation' technique.
Cheers,
Dan
This is what leads me to believe the system was turned down in the F10 M5 after it's first incarnation. The M5 & i'd assume the M3/4 (in fact many cars nowadays) have mechanical flaps within the exhaust system that are controlled via the ECU to open/close under certain conditions. If you drive a current M5 then i challenge you to point to any un-natural sound in the cabin as having had my car for near on 18mths (from new), i'll be buggered if i can hear any.Safe to assume I think much of this will apply to the M5 too. So, yes, the engine is louder from the outside if you're in Sport or Sport Plus or under specific throttle loadings. And there is a mechanical element to how the sound is enhanced, contrived or however you want to put it. Which is why by unplugging the ASD amp you can still hear a fair bit of exhaust noise from the inside, more so in Sport and Sport Plus. The important thing for me is that it sounds more natural, rather than some sort of CIA noise terror 'enhanced interrogation' technique.
Cheers,
Dan
It's a big lump of 4.4l V8 up front so although perhaps making a 3.0l 6 a touch more aural has some sense about it, why would you bother doing the same to an engine that sounds great in it's OEM form. I get numerous nods of appreciation when i tickle the throttle (normally in Comfort mode) & although i can clearly hear the external noises, they're hardly loud inside the car other than the pops/cracks which to a degree is the trick exhaust as mentioned above.
I will however hunt down this Amp & plug to see if on my car it's the same. If it is i'll unplug it to see if i notice any difference. Somehow i doubt this but it wouldn't be the 1st time i was wrong.
Sir_Dave said:
My neighbour has one of these, quite possibly the worst cold start noise ever!!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdQJdnaERgo
Sounds like a lawnmower from outside, assume the speakers make it sound like an e92 M3 on the inside
Never realised they sounded like that - bizarre indeed.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdQJdnaERgo
Sounds like a lawnmower from outside, assume the speakers make it sound like an e92 M3 on the inside
Dunno, still seemed there in the 30 Jahre car I drove recently but - in fairness - if you're deep enough into the throttle to be making exciting noises in that or the standard car you've probably got more on your mind than whether or not the sound is coming through the speakers!
Main thing is if it's your car and you like it then bravo for that. But if you do have a fiddle let me know how you get on!
Cheers,
Dan
Main thing is if it's your car and you like it then bravo for that. But if you do have a fiddle let me know how you get on!
Cheers,
Dan
Dan Trent said:
Dunno, still seemed there in the 30 Jahre car I drove recently but - in fairness - if you're deep enough into the throttle to be making exciting noises in that or the standard car you've probably got more on your mind than whether or not the sound is coming through the speakers!
Main thing is if it's your car and you like it then bravo for that. But if you do have a fiddle let me know how you get on!
Cheers,
Dan
Will do Dan.Main thing is if it's your car and you like it then bravo for that. But if you do have a fiddle let me know how you get on!
Cheers,
Dan
Totally agree with the deep enough sentiment. I'm positive it's not present when cruising at 80mph in Comfort mode & when 'playing' on/off track i'm having too much fun to give a toss what's coming out of the speakers & the Music system's always off when playing so perhaps that numbs some of the amplification. Another option is perhaps DMS coded it out & never mentioned it.
Edited by W8PMC on Wednesday 4th November 16:20
Monty Python said:
You'd think BMW would put an option in the iDrive to disable it rather than having to dismantle the boot.
You really think they would have, along with an option to keep flaps always open on the exhaust and not just under load in Sport+.I'll have to listen to video when i get home, but as you said you noticed it more windows up and I try to drive mostly with roof down (although winter is coming...) I'm not sure how much benefit I'll get from this knuckle scrapping.
On a side note there is an option available to control the exhaust flaps after market (for both standard and after market exhausts) - but then you've already 'modified' something that should really be standard.
I would not be surprised if all if this is included in the Competition pack which is coming very soon.
I've no idea why people get so upset about "fake" engine sounds? Afterall what is a "real" engine sound? By all means, remove all the soundproofing from your car. And if you've done that, you'll realise how TERRIBLE a car actually sounds! For 30 years the OEMs have been tuning their external and cabin acoustics. As the market has demanded (and enjoyed) more and more refinement, and the legislators have pushed radiated external sound volumes from passenger cars down (if you live by a road, you'll be glad they have!) it's become increasingly difficult to satisfy all camps.
Added to which, modern high efficiency engines don't sound as nice as old ones (fast burning is great for efficiency, but the rapid rate of rise of cylinder pressure, gives rise to a very "diesely" sound) (start your M3 with the bonnet open from cold and see if you like the noise)
I bet if BMW took a load of sound proofing and NVH reduction measures out of the M3/M4, the journos would be the first to complain about the noise in the cabin. No matter if the sound is "piped" into the cabin by mechanical means (sound symposers, switchable exhausts, intake system flaps and tuning pipes etc) or by electronic ones (Using the HiFi Speakers) these systems allow you and i to have a quiet car most of the time (and our neighbours are probably pleased about that) and yet still sound decent inside when you drive it hard........
Added to which, modern high efficiency engines don't sound as nice as old ones (fast burning is great for efficiency, but the rapid rate of rise of cylinder pressure, gives rise to a very "diesely" sound) (start your M3 with the bonnet open from cold and see if you like the noise)
I bet if BMW took a load of sound proofing and NVH reduction measures out of the M3/M4, the journos would be the first to complain about the noise in the cabin. No matter if the sound is "piped" into the cabin by mechanical means (sound symposers, switchable exhausts, intake system flaps and tuning pipes etc) or by electronic ones (Using the HiFi Speakers) these systems allow you and i to have a quiet car most of the time (and our neighbours are probably pleased about that) and yet still sound decent inside when you drive it hard........
Reasoned and reasonable points, as ever! All of what you say makes complete sense but there are clearly those who do it well and those who don't. And it's frustrating how much better and intuitive the M4 sounds and feels by the simple removal of a plug from the Active Sound Design amp. Culturally I find it odd that BMW and others are working so hard to eliminate any trace of the engine's fundamental character and make it sound and feel like something it isn't. Got to be a hiding to nothing as a development goal - if it's a twin turbo six why not make it sound like one!
As someone else said, given it's just an electronic system and BMW and others seem so obsessed with configurability these days a pity there's not an on/off option buried somewhere within the menus for those who don't like it to just turn it off.
Dan
As someone else said, given it's just an electronic system and BMW and others seem so obsessed with configurability these days a pity there's not an on/off option buried somewhere within the menus for those who don't like it to just turn it off.
Dan
Dan Trent said:
Reasoned and reasonable points, as ever! All of what you say makes complete sense but there are clearly those who do it well and those who don't. And it's frustrating how much better and intuitive the M4 sounds and feels by the simple removal of a plug from the Active Sound Design amp. Culturally I find it odd that BMW and others are working so hard to eliminate any trace of the engine's fundamental character and make it sound and feel like something it isn't. Got to be a hiding to nothing as a development goal - if it's a twin turbo six why not make it sound like one!
As someone else said, given it's just an electronic system and BMW and others seem so obsessed with configurability these days a pity there's not an on/off option buried somewhere within the menus for those who don't like it to just turn it off.
Dan
Totally agree with you Dan. BMW loaned me an M4 convertible with M performance exhaust for 24 hours recently. With the roof up and in M mode, the booming resonance from the speakers gave me a cracking headache. it sounded much better in normal mode with the roof down so you could actually hear the exhaust and no fake sound.As someone else said, given it's just an electronic system and BMW and others seem so obsessed with configurability these days a pity there's not an on/off option buried somewhere within the menus for those who don't like it to just turn it off.
Dan
I'm going to check for that fuse in my 4 series as i'm sure it's pumping out fake noise through the HK stereo...
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff