RE: Feedback is back: Tell Me I'm Wrong

RE: Feedback is back: Tell Me I'm Wrong

Monday 16th November 2015

Feedback is back: Tell Me I'm Wrong

After the performance arms race comes realisation there can be more to life than outright speed



Roads don't get any wider. Speed limits don't get any higher. Even circuits become more restricted, be that in noise limits or simply space to let modern performance cars properly off the leash.

And yet cars get faster still. It'd be a brave manufacturer to launch a supermini-based hot hatch with less than 200hp or a mid-sized one without 300hp, adaptive dampers, fancy locking diffs, driver configurable technology and a 'ring lap record. Remember when 500hp sounded extraordinary even in a supercar? You can now have it on a £70K family estate car, while entry to the serious performance league demands 700hp a minimum.

Faster than ever but fun at normal speeds too
Faster than ever but fun at normal speeds too
The threshold at which all this extra ability can actually be appreciated has suddenly shot up too, way faster than the capacity of roads or tracks to accommodate it, let alone the abilities of even a half-talented driver to do it justice.

Hope in the dark
It all sounds a bit gloomy really, and helps to explain the growing fixation with the best examples of cars from a generation or two back. The owner of a new 991 GT3 RS would rightly be happy to own the newest, latest and most badass Rennsport Porsche. But their equivalent with a 997 GT3 RS 3.8 or 4.0 is probably enjoying the hype-driven upward trajectory of values - not to mention their car - rather more.

I see hope though. And it would be the realisation in some quarters that reliance on technology to deliver impressive numbers isn't necessarily the answer.

Now, motoring journos get a little fixated about things like steering feel, control weights, pedal placing and chassis balance when many owners are probably more interested in residuals, bragging rights, gizmo count and snazziness of infotainment system. The latter seems to have rather taken over the mindsets of some manufacturers too, the reality being quite a significant number of people who both build and buy sports cars aren't actually that interested in how they drive, so long as the numbers look good and, by reflected glory, so do they.

A bit much for the road perhaps?
A bit much for the road perhaps?
But there is another way. And the folk to navigate us out of this cul-de-sac are the car nuts. People like you and me, who just happen to run car companies and still care about how a car actually feels to drive. McLaren is a good example. On the recent 570S launch I was struck by conversation with top brass like CEO Mike Flewitt, project manager Andy Palmer, R&D chief Mark Vinnels and test driver Chris Goodwin. The conclusion being they all really, really love cars. You'd be surprised how rare this is.

Flewitt races an old Elan with his wife (also, seemingly, his most bitter rival!), Palmer has a thing for Porsches his colleagues rib him for mercilessly, Vinnels is on the hunt for an old Excel to relive his formative years as a Lotus engineer and Goodwin runs and races the M1B Can-Am car he bought with his dad. And I've been to an employee car day at Woking that'd shame a Sunday Service in the quality and diversity of metal owned and loved by the folk that work there.

And in the real world...
Goodwin will tell you his benchmark for brake pedal feel is his Can-Am racer, undisclosed 'old' cars are gathered to compare steering feel and feedback and you get the sense - for all the relentless focus on technology - when it comes to set-up these guys are using their old cars as reference.

This all shows when you drive a McLaren, even something as potent as a 675LT. When I drove one across Wales in the pouring rain the thing that most surprised me was not its relentless speed. OK, that was pretty extraordinary. But really what was most impressive was how enjoyable it was at what I'd describe as fast road pace. One with deference to the concept of continued employment and respect for fellow road users.

Fastest Lotus ever, but it still has familiar appeal
Fastest Lotus ever, but it still has familiar appeal
For all the incredible talent Ferrari displays in its recent output I don't get the same sense of passion for the cars from the people that work there. And I think that's reflected in the way they drive. McLaren steering has springiness and weight to it reminiscent of an unassisted wheel and enjoyable at any speed. A 458 or 488 GTB feels computer game light and hyperactive in comparison, meaning you only really get a sense of how fast you're going when the scenery gets really blurry.

Engage and entertain
Porsches can be a mixed bag on this front. Much of the range is over-wheeled, over-geared and over-talented for the way most can be enjoyed. Andreas Preuninger and his GT department seem to get it though, the Cayman GT4 I think a cautious toe in the water for Porsche to see if the market is ready for cars that might be 'less good' than their equivalents by pure numbers. But more enriching and fun to drive. You'd have to hope the reaction to that car encourages that mindset to spread across the range, the GT3 RS being another pleasant surprise in its ability to engage, entertain or even scare a little at a fraction of the speeds it's capable of when fully lit. Honourable mentions also to Jaguar's sense of 'sod lap times, let's just do skids' fun and Lotus's ongoing expertise in calibrating feel and feedback even the most hamfisted can appreciate.

Not purely about speed and the better for it
Not purely about speed and the better for it
Back in the real world Renaultsport, Ford and Honda are among those to realise that sensation matters as much - if not more than - out and out performance. Furthermore, you can't ignore the likes of the Toyota GT86/Subaru BRZ in this conversation either. Not the MX-5? Not out of the box I'd argue, its feel and feedback feeling a little caricatured as it leaves the line and the Toyobaru's dedication to things like seating position, visibility, control harmonisation and the like indicative of a car built by people who just love driving for driving's sake.

How do we strengthen the arm of folk like this? I think we need to make more noise about what we actually want out of our cars. You might be aggrieved you didn't get that GT4. But take heart that the fuss surrounding it may be reflected in Porsches you don't need to be on first name terms with your local OPC to buy. That philosophy applied to everything from hot hatches to supercars and we may yet prevail!

Author
Discussion

SturdyHSV

Original Poster:

10,094 posts

167 months

Monday 16th November 2015
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Ah the delicious irony of an article with that title having 0 comments hehe

justboxsters

135 posts

166 months

Monday 16th November 2015
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Ah men to this.

Unfortunately The time I can afford a 570S is way off. 12C May be in reach in a few years but maybe by then I won't want one...

Such is life!

RobM77

35,349 posts

234 months

Monday 16th November 2015
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There have been a fair few threads on this recently, and I wholeheartedly agree. For me, road cars always have been, and always will be, about feedback and driving involvement more than outright speed. Beyond a certain level of performance (quite a modest one actually!) I find I can't really use a car's potential on the public road, and if you take the same road car to a track then you often find that it's slower and less rewarding than a racing car worth half the amount. What's left is feedback and tactility and that huge sense of enjoyment just from driving down a B road at 50mph in a car like an Elise. Lotus have pretty much nailed this in my humble opinion. It's heartening (though irrelevant for me!) to know that McLaren also build cars with enjoyment in mind.

Mr E

21,614 posts

259 months

Monday 16th November 2015
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This is the reason I own an Elise with no power steering or ABS.
Having a family is the reason I don't get to drive it much.

otolith

56,034 posts

204 months

Monday 16th November 2015
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You only have to read any GT86/BRZ thread to see that a lot of this site's members are on the side of gadgets, grab-handles & grunt.

chiark

118 posts

150 months

Monday 16th November 2015
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Completely agree. After going through various turbo'd subarus, 6 cylinder BMWs, and a 996, I've ended up with an S1 elise. It is the most fun with the least power I've had in a car for years, and as noted above even punting it along at sane speeds makes you feel utterly, completely alive.

Going ballistic speeds with insane grip levels is all well and good, but it isn't the be all and end all of driving for me.

But wasn't this the great hope for the GT86/BRZ and the first thing people say is "needs more power"... ;-)

WJNB

2,637 posts

161 months

Monday 16th November 2015
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Agree 100%. Had just as much fun with modest powered '60's classic sports cars, & a first series MX-5 than later 200/250 BHP max. modern sports cars.
To be honest in a flash 150mph+ car you look a complete burke having (usually noisily) blasted past a queue of traffic & then they all tuck in behind you as you get stuck at some traffic lights or in a queue you CAN'T get past. Stealing a glance in the rear view mirror may well reveal laughter, at your expense.
Take a long motorway journey & given that every oik in a van, beaten up old Ford or sales reps in BMW 3 Series diesels can cruise at 70mph or more you 'ain't going to get to your destination any quicker. You might feel smug being able to show-off your wealth but in the UK most fellow drivers will sneer & make sure you're obstructed at every opportunity.
Owning a very fast very expensive car also advertises possible personal issues related to desperation for social acceptance insecurity & immaturity.

MikeGoodwin

3,337 posts

117 months

Monday 16th November 2015
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A new Focus ST isnt too bad in terms of feel but the electric diff gets annoying - like it pipes through fake feed back. Its not as detached as say, a 3 series (E90 or F30 models) but it does feel some what connected.

TWPC

842 posts

161 months

Monday 16th November 2015
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You're not wrong.

One day I will own a Caterham, maybe a 160, or a Morgan 3 wheeler, or both.

Captain Caveman

86 posts

175 months

Monday 16th November 2015
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I think 'involvement' is the missing word here. I sold my R35 GTR after two years, as though it was one of the fastest things on the road, I felt the car was simply too competent and lacked involvement, which was only summoned at licence losing speeds. I actually think something with less power, but more intimacy and delicacy to is far more enjoyable and rewarding. I actually enjoy driving my mates Clio 200 more than my old GTR, even though there is no comparison performance wise.

I think a lot of this is driven by the inherent bragging rights that come with car ownership. Manufacturers put the focus in the areas which we care about most. If we were most motivated by feel, delicacy and precision then car makers would invest in those areas, rather than more power!

TWPC

842 posts

161 months

Monday 16th November 2015
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Dan,

Can you ask the McLaren people to go and build something that is road legal in the UK, that they would enjoy and is powered by an engine with less than 200hp, or less than 150hp if they want a real challenge? That should focus their minds...

Thank you

Lordbenny

8,582 posts

219 months

Monday 16th November 2015
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Seems Dan has woken up and smelt the coffee! Supercar road cars are completely pointless on British roads, something I realised 25 years ago!

Flat6

588 posts

255 months

Monday 16th November 2015
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I agree with all the comments above, but I still think the ones of us who think like this are in the minority and most enthusiasts (including many on PH) still only seemed concerned with straight line performance and bragging rights.

Between my M135i and Elise I think I've got a great combination of a car for driving daily and a car for driving JUST for the sheer enjoyment it brings. I can see each on its own merit and appreciate the compromises made on both. The "ultimate driving machine" however has steering completely devoid of any feel, yet on the couple of occasions I've mentioned "Lotus" when referring to steering feel on a BMW forum, it's been met with comments only of "rattly, slow, blah blah..." with little appreciation of the joys of driving something so involving, irrespective of the speed.

RobM77

35,349 posts

234 months

Monday 16th November 2015
quotequote all
MikeGoodwin said:
A new Focus ST isnt too bad in terms of feel but the electric diff gets annoying - like it pipes through fake feed back. Its not as detached as say, a 3 series (E90 or F30 models) but it does feel some what connected.
It's worth bearing in mind that steering feel is only one aspect of feedback. I've driven plenty of cars that have virtually no steering feel at all, but still drive very well due to the feedback getting to the driver by other means. A good example was my 2007 BMW Z4 Coupé - awful ePAS system, but plenty of interaction and feedback from elsewhere. The latest ePAS MINIs are like this too. Of course I'd rather have good steering feel (e.g. the Elise is the best I've experienced), but there are other ways to get feedback in a car.

Chris99

353 posts

160 months

Monday 16th November 2015
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Completely agree.

My Morgan 3 wheeler is as much fun as my old Ferrari 355 and gets far more use.



TWPC

842 posts

161 months

Monday 16th November 2015
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P.S. Re. roads not getting any wider, note the way the Morgan 3W is small enough that you can (well, heaven knows if I could (!) but Monkey Harris can) get the rear end to step out without even crossing the white dividing line in the middle of the road...
See 3:53 of this vid: https://youtu.be/htI3weS49cc

Dan Trent

1,866 posts

168 months

Monday 16th November 2015
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Agreed on all this and 'involvement' is another good description. I'm talking about much more than just steering feel too, though that's the obvious one. Pedal weight, spacing and reaction are important, as is feedback through the chassis, seat, sound ... all of it! Consider this as a kind of follow-on to my previous rant about fake noise in the M4!

One thing to point out though, I'm not against supercars or saying this current crop of super competent cars are too quick to enjoy necessarily. Just that by increasing the interaction at ALL speeds we're able to enjoy them as much when safe and legal as we are when flat chat on the track or wherever. 675LT and GT3 RS both good examples - incredibly rapid cars with abilities way beyond anything of a generation ago even. But both able to entertain at one tenth as well as excite/terrify further up the scale.

Cheers,

Dan

sandysinclair

303 posts

207 months

Monday 16th November 2015
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Well what a surprise after years of charging inexorably for more power, more efficiency, battery this, electric that, people are waking up that simple rack n pinion or hydraulic steering and heaven forbid a manual gearbox give the individual more connection & feel than an isolated box of electric motors can ever do. Over 600hp in anything other than bone dry conditions is recipe for traction control simply put. 10-11 seconds later your doing 125 and an closing speed on the dozy morons in front of 60+ miles an hour, heavy braking ensues normally, as they don't look in their mirrors and many swearwords follow . My rear tyres are 335 wide and just cope with a tad over 600hp if it's dry and the weather is warm. Heaven knows how another 100-150hp on top of that can be considered useable day to day.

W8aMinute

70 posts

151 months

Monday 16th November 2015
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I doesn't seem that long ago that all the expert car journalists were telling their readers that McLaren's cars didn't have the "fizz" or "personality" of the equivalent Ferraris.

Unfortunately, I don't recall seeing a single opinion that was informed enough to actually articulate why...

mikey k

13,011 posts

216 months

Monday 16th November 2015
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I have an M135i daily, a Honda S2000 tinkering car and a McLaren 650S spider
I love driving them all
BUT for different reasons in each one wink