Black numberplates urban myth - the law has changed
Discussion
EDIT: Ignore this - I was talking tosh.
Rest of post unedited for historic reasons (and deleting opening posts is naff), but it's deffo tosh. Apols - finger trouble.
Various rubbishy classic car mags (are there any non-rubbishy ones?) have been purveying the myth that, since the change to the rules about VED that allows cars to become tax free once they turn forty, such cars can also sport black plates of the kind usable by cars built before 1 Jan 1973. I leave aside the question of why anyone would think it other than naff to put black plates on, say, a 1975 car (and as for those who put black plates on modern cars, let us not speak of them, for they are t
ts). This post is just about the yawnsome legalities.
The myth has been circulating on various online old car fora, and, although it may have come up here before, it is perhaps worth mentioning that the law about number plates has not changed along with the law about VED.
Chapter and verse below:-
Road Vehicles (Display of Registration Marks) Regulations 2001/561
Part II REGISTRATION PLATES
This version in force from: September 1, 2001 to present
10.— Specifications for registration plates
(1) A registration mark must be displayed on a registration plate conforming to the requirements prescribed by this regulation.
(2) In the case of a vehicle first registered on or after 1st September 2001 the registration plate must conform to the requirements set out in Part 1 of Schedule 2.
(3) Subject to paragraph (4), in the case of a vehicle first registered on or after 1st January 1973 but before 1st September 2001 the registration plate must conform either to the requirements set out in Part 2 of Schedule 2 or to the requirements set out in Part 1 of that Schedule.
[Schedule 1 paraphrased - Parts 1 and 2 relate to post and pre 2001 style white and yellow plates. Black plates come under Part 3 and are only for pre 1973 builds]
...
Part IV MISCELLANEOUS
This version in force from: September 1, 2001 to present
18. Saving for vehicles constructed before 1st January 1973
For the purposes of these Regulations a vehicle which was first registered on or after 1st January 1973 shall be treated as if it was first registered before that date if—
(a) it is an exempt vehicle for the purposes of paragraph 1A(1) of Schedule 2 to the Act 1, or
(b) not being such a vehicle, it was constructed before 1st January 1973.
Rest of post unedited for historic reasons (and deleting opening posts is naff), but it's deffo tosh. Apols - finger trouble.
Various rubbishy classic car mags (are there any non-rubbishy ones?) have been purveying the myth that, since the change to the rules about VED that allows cars to become tax free once they turn forty, such cars can also sport black plates of the kind usable by cars built before 1 Jan 1973. I leave aside the question of why anyone would think it other than naff to put black plates on, say, a 1975 car (and as for those who put black plates on modern cars, let us not speak of them, for they are t
ts). This post is just about the yawnsome legalities.The myth has been circulating on various online old car fora, and, although it may have come up here before, it is perhaps worth mentioning that the law about number plates has not changed along with the law about VED.
Chapter and verse below:-
Road Vehicles (Display of Registration Marks) Regulations 2001/561
Part II REGISTRATION PLATES
This version in force from: September 1, 2001 to present
10.— Specifications for registration plates
(1) A registration mark must be displayed on a registration plate conforming to the requirements prescribed by this regulation.
(2) In the case of a vehicle first registered on or after 1st September 2001 the registration plate must conform to the requirements set out in Part 1 of Schedule 2.
(3) Subject to paragraph (4), in the case of a vehicle first registered on or after 1st January 1973 but before 1st September 2001 the registration plate must conform either to the requirements set out in Part 2 of Schedule 2 or to the requirements set out in Part 1 of that Schedule.
[Schedule 1 paraphrased - Parts 1 and 2 relate to post and pre 2001 style white and yellow plates. Black plates come under Part 3 and are only for pre 1973 builds]
...
Part IV MISCELLANEOUS
This version in force from: September 1, 2001 to present
18. Saving for vehicles constructed before 1st January 1973
For the purposes of these Regulations a vehicle which was first registered on or after 1st January 1973 shall be treated as if it was first registered before that date if—
(a) it is an exempt vehicle for the purposes of paragraph 1A(1) of Schedule 2 to the Act 1, or
(b) not being such a vehicle, it was constructed before 1st January 1973.
Edited by anonymous-user on Thursday 7th January 18:17
It's not quite the usual simple case of half-arsed "journos" making things up this time.
DVLA told FBHVC that it was the case...
p8
http://fbhvc.co.uk/members-pages/newsletter-archiv...
...and FBHVC did some more digging, and reckoned it was.
p6
http://fbhvc.co.uk/members-pages/newsletter-archiv...
I shall leave the hair-splitting decision of which is actually accurate to m'learned wig-wearer.
DVLA told FBHVC that it was the case...
p8
http://fbhvc.co.uk/members-pages/newsletter-archiv...
...and FBHVC did some more digging, and reckoned it was.
p6
http://fbhvc.co.uk/members-pages/newsletter-archiv...
I shall leave the hair-splitting decision of which is actually accurate to m'learned wig-wearer.
Edited by TooMany2cvs on Thursday 7th January 15:38
Crikey, not those old grannies! The FBHVC sometimes resemble the boy crying Wolf. I recall them spreading alarm and despondency some time back about new roadworthiness rules that they incorrectly claimed would take most old cars off the road forever. This did not happen, and still appears unlikely to happen, although I see that the FBHVC may still be in Chicken Licken mode on that subject.
As the FBHVC appear wilfully or accidentally to misinterpret pretty much everything, I wouldn't rely on anything that they claim to have been told by DVLA. DVLA might say, if asked: "No, we said nothing of the kind, but the dudes hadn't got their hearing aids switched on, or something". If DVLA did say what they are alleged to have said, DVLA would have been plum wrong on the subject. DVLA don't make the law, and the law on black plates hasn't changed.
PS: nope, there is no case based on legitimate expectation. I can explain why by reference to public law principles if anyone cares, but it's tedious to do so.
As the FBHVC appear wilfully or accidentally to misinterpret pretty much everything, I wouldn't rely on anything that they claim to have been told by DVLA. DVLA might say, if asked: "No, we said nothing of the kind, but the dudes hadn't got their hearing aids switched on, or something". If DVLA did say what they are alleged to have said, DVLA would have been plum wrong on the subject. DVLA don't make the law, and the law on black plates hasn't changed.
PS: nope, there is no case based on legitimate expectation. I can explain why by reference to public law principles if anyone cares, but it's tedious to do so.
Edited by anonymous-user on Thursday 7th January 14:32
PS: Both of your links go to the same edition of the newsletter. Did you mean to put up two distinct links?
PPS: I have now had a quick squiz at the rest of the mag. Crikey! Eeyore City Arizona. Masses of over technicality and barrack roomish quibbles, and lots of worrying about things that aren't worth worrying about. The glass is much more than half empty. Cheery stuff!
PPS: I have now had a quick squiz at the rest of the mag. Crikey! Eeyore City Arizona. Masses of over technicality and barrack roomish quibbles, and lots of worrying about things that aren't worth worrying about. The glass is much more than half empty. Cheery stuff!
Edited by anonymous-user on Thursday 7th January 14:49
This was one site that say the DVLA has clarified that you are able to use them on post '73:
http://classics.honestjohn.co.uk/news/general-news...
http://classics.honestjohn.co.uk/news/general-news...
As these are regulations enacted by 2 completely different pieces of legislation I don't see why one would impact the other.
In the early 1970's legistation came in that required all vehicles built after (the then future date of) 01-01-1973 had to sport black/yellow plates.
In the late 80's/early 90's (?) seperate legislation came in exempting vehicles over 25 years old from VED.
This second legislation was later changed to be a fixed date that happened to coincide with the former, number plate rules.
More recently the second legislation was further revised to again be based on vehicle age, this time set at 40 years old.
I don't see why that would impact the number plate rules any more than seat belt/reversing light/emissions/etc regulations.
And Breadvan, do you think black/silver plates are naff on all cars or is there some magic about 1973? Why would they look any more/less naff on a 1970 Triumph Spitfire MkIV than the externally identical 1975 Triumph Spitfire 1500...?
In the early 1970's legistation came in that required all vehicles built after (the then future date of) 01-01-1973 had to sport black/yellow plates.
In the late 80's/early 90's (?) seperate legislation came in exempting vehicles over 25 years old from VED.
This second legislation was later changed to be a fixed date that happened to coincide with the former, number plate rules.
More recently the second legislation was further revised to again be based on vehicle age, this time set at 40 years old.
I don't see why that would impact the number plate rules any more than seat belt/reversing light/emissions/etc regulations.
And Breadvan, do you think black/silver plates are naff on all cars or is there some magic about 1973? Why would they look any more/less naff on a 1970 Triumph Spitfire MkIV than the externally identical 1975 Triumph Spitfire 1500...?
The 2001 Regulations cannot be trumped by a statement by HMRC as to tax treatment of vehicles. DVLA deserve a slap for giving out duff info. Also, statute law does not operate in a series of parallel streams, allowing you to pick and choose which stream will apply in a given situation. If a statute or regulation says X, then X applies unless and until that statute or regulation is amended or repealed. Where there is a head to head conflict between two items of legislation, problems can arise, but that is not the case here.
The rolling tax exemption takes effect by virtue of Schedule 2 to the Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994, as amended. That has nowt to say about black numberplates.
As for naffness, I think that, if you want your car to look "period" and it is, say, a 1971 sports car, then it is more likely than not that the original owner, who would probably have been or would have aspired to be a groovy dude, would have specified new style plates. If the car is, say, a 1971 granddad style saloon, it may have had black plates from new.
A 1977 car with black plates doesn't look "period", because it couldn't have been on such plates in 1977 (assuming that it was not a pre 1973 build).
I confess that I once had a pre 1973 (registered 1973) Lotus that the previous owner had put on black plates and I never got around to changing them before I sold the car. My 1969 Jensen was more debatable because I knew who the first owner was and reckoned that he would probably have specified black plates (he could have had new style as an option then).
The rolling tax exemption takes effect by virtue of Schedule 2 to the Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994, as amended. That has nowt to say about black numberplates.
As for naffness, I think that, if you want your car to look "period" and it is, say, a 1971 sports car, then it is more likely than not that the original owner, who would probably have been or would have aspired to be a groovy dude, would have specified new style plates. If the car is, say, a 1971 granddad style saloon, it may have had black plates from new.
A 1977 car with black plates doesn't look "period", because it couldn't have been on such plates in 1977 (assuming that it was not a pre 1973 build).
I confess that I once had a pre 1973 (registered 1973) Lotus that the previous owner had put on black plates and I never got around to changing them before I sold the car. My 1969 Jensen was more debatable because I knew who the first owner was and reckoned that he would probably have specified black plates (he could have had new style as an option then).
Edited by anonymous-user on Thursday 7th January 15:37
Breadvan72 said:
Crikey, not those old grannies! The FBHVC sometimes resemble the boy crying Wolf. I recall them spreading alarm and despondency some time back about new roadworthiness rules that they incorrectly claimed would take most old cars off the road forever.
Nah, that's the other lot, the half-witted "ACE". FBHVC might be a bunch of grommit-polishers, but they mostly have their heads screwed on, and - much more importantly - they have the ear of The People Wot Matter.Breadvan72 said:
PS: Both of your links go to the same edition of the newsletter. Did you mean to put up two distinct links?
I did indood. Fixed.As far as crimes against number plates go, I would like to stick my hand up to a 1982 s1 CX - black with stainless bumpers - on white-on-black French-font plates and an F sticker, and to more than one 2cv on reflective but French-font plates. All with yellow headlight bulbs, bien sur.
From the previous thread about this:-
Aren't those links ^^ just referring to the rolling tax exemption? Anything new legislative wise on the use of the silver & black plates? smile
It's the definition of an exempt vehicle which defines which type of plate it can display. Since the definition is changed by the Finance Act each year, the age of the vehicle has started to roll forward.
S18 of http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2001/561/pdfs/u... is the critical one as it changes which parts of Schedule 2 apply. Exempt vehicles may display any of the plate types described in Schedule 2.
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Aren't those links ^^ just referring to the rolling tax exemption? Anything new legislative wise on the use of the silver & black plates? smile
It's the definition of an exempt vehicle which defines which type of plate it can display. Since the definition is changed by the Finance Act each year, the age of the vehicle has started to roll forward.
S18 of http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2001/561/pdfs/u... is the critical one as it changes which parts of Schedule 2 apply. Exempt vehicles may display any of the plate types described in Schedule 2.
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
uk66fastback said:
Can we have this in English?
1) You cannot have b&w plates on a car MANUFACTURED after Jan 1 1973.
2) You don't have to pay VED on a car once it is 40 years old.
Are both of those statements true?
1) 1) You cannot have b&w plates on a car MANUFACTURED after Jan 1 1973.
2) You don't have to pay VED on a car once it is 40 years old.
Are both of those statements true?
2). Not quite - the exemption date is set in the Finance Bill each year - http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/11/sectio...
Edited - I was talking nonsense. See below.
Edited by marshalla on Thursday 7th January 18:16
untakenname said:
I think it's acceptable (if not legal) if the car model straddled the date ie started before 1973.
The legislation specifies the date of construction of the vehicle, not the model. Edited : I really should check what I said previously before posting nonsense.
Edited by marshalla on Thursday 7th January 18:18
mgtony said:
So still
from me!However, last time we debated this : http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=155...
I ended up correcting myself, so I'm going to do it again. The Finance Act amends the defintion of an exempt vehicle so BV is wrong and the DVLA web monkey is right.
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/11/sectio... says "VED: extension of old vehicles exemption from 1 April 2016
(1)In Schedule 2 to VERA 1994 (exempt vehicles) in paragraph 1A(1) (exemption for old vehicles) for the words from “constructed” to the end substitute “constructed before 1 January 1976”." which moves all vehicles prior to that date into the category permitted to display old style plates.
This is because http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2001/561/pdfs/u... states "18. For the purposes of these Regulations a vehicle which was first registered on or after 1st January 1973 shall be treated as if it was first registered before that date if—
(a) it is an exempt vehicle for the purposes of paragraph 1A(1) of Schedule 2 to the
Act(b), or"
So - in spite of the regulations declaring 1973 as the cut-off, the redefinition of "exempt vehicles" overrides that.
Edited by marshalla on Thursday 7th January 18:09
Breadvan72 said:
Guess what - marshalla is correct and I have been chomping on my boot. My only rather feeble mitigation is that for some reason Westlaw took me to an incorrect version of the legislation, but that's driver error to blame, or GIGO as the geeks may say.
Wait until the lunatics see this 
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