RE: Forest rallying in Wales under threat
Saturday 7th May 2016
Forest rallying in Wales is under threat as public body Natural Resources Wales looks set to double access fees paid by the MSA to £665,000 next month. And why? Because it believes rallying is not paying its fair share to repair the roads after events have run. An agreement for 2015 was extended to May 2016 but, as of 1 June, no new agreement is in place. And the two bodies are at loggerheads over a new deal. No deal means no rallying.
This has led MSA chief executive Rob Jones to write an open letter in response to NRW recently publishing the 2015 repair cost figures on its website - which state that although the MSA paid £339,000, the actual cost of repairing the forest roads was £665,000. And NRW is, says Jones, "currently negotiating on the firm basis that it will seek reimbursement of the total cost of reinstatement."
And here is where the MSA disagrees with NRW. Because while rallying may cause damage to forest roads that needs fixing afterwards (although there is discussion elsewhere on the true extent of damage and whether forestry commission vehicles and lorries using the same roads aren't causing similar amounts of damage daily...), Jones and the MSA are encouraging the NRW, MPs and Welsh Assembly members to look beyond the pure financial hit of road repairs.
The MSA "will continue to seek the best possible deal but we should not be in any doubt that the immediate and long-term future of rallying in the Welsh forests is currently very uncertain." Which, to anyone with a love of grass-roots motorsport (such as our Lizzie on Wales Rally GB last year), is worrying news indeed.
Forest rallying in Wales under threat
A £200,000 disagreement over the cost of repairing forest roads threatens the future of rallying in Wales
To explain why it's doing this, David Edwell, head of enterprise for Natural Resources Wales, told PistonHeads: "We understand that any increase in cost is difficult to manage and as a result we agreed to hold the existing charges until May and we have discussed several options, including giving the MSA the opportunity to carry out the road repairs themselves.
"We cannot continue to use public funds to subsidise the sport to this degree. It is important that the costs we incur in preparing the forests for these events and repairing the roads afterwards are recovered so we can continue to deliver the wide range of other services these areas provide to the people of Wales."
The wider economic benefits of rallying to Wales are clear, it says: a single one-day event for 120 cars can generate £100,000 in rural economic benefit from competitors alone - that's staying in hotels, filling up with fuel, eating, drinking tea and so on. Add on marshalls, official and visitors and you've an additional £345,000 - so that's £445k from one event; there are 10 national forest events in Wales each year, making almost £5m. Add on £10m from Wales Rally GB and the Welsh economy is benefitting enormously from the presence of rallying that's now under threat by the NRW's firm duty to the public purse.
We hope that NRW can look beyond its balance sheet and fully appreciate these many benefits," says Jones, and consider "far more realistic charges that are introduced over a greater period," not simply billed in full from June 1. Because if this goes ahead, it "could potentially have a catastrophic impact upon a proud part of Wales' sporting heritage."
Both organisations are keen to stress they are still working together to find a resolution, but it seems there's a big difference in view that's yet to be bridged, hence both parties now taking their own side into the public arena.
We'll watch with interest and report back with new developments as the clock potentially ticks on forest rallying in Wales: in the meantime, showing your own support with officials, Welsh Assembly members, MPs (and, via #rally4wales, on social media) would do no harm whatsoever, suggests Jones. Because, inconceivable as it may seem, by this time next month there may no longer be any MSA-run forest rallying in Wales.
Discussion
It would be a shame if they can't sort this out, but I can see where Natural Resources Wales are coming from.
Having watched the Wales Rally GB most years at the "Halfway" stage, what are fairly well compacted gravel tracks in the morning are completely rutted by the afternoon. I'd imagine it would take several months of normal transport to achieve what 40 rally cars do in a day. You wouldn't believe how much of the surface they move!
I guess the problem is, unlike F1, WRC isn't bringing in the money it once was, so someone is bound to loose out somewhere.
Having watched the Wales Rally GB most years at the "Halfway" stage, what are fairly well compacted gravel tracks in the morning are completely rutted by the afternoon. I'd imagine it would take several months of normal transport to achieve what 40 rally cars do in a day. You wouldn't believe how much of the surface they move!
I guess the problem is, unlike F1, WRC isn't bringing in the money it once was, so someone is bound to loose out somewhere.
Edited by framerateuk on Thursday 5th May 18:10
I am a big forest rally fan, done the Wales Rally GB twice, and potter along at the back with a low powered 2wd car. I pay the same as the 4wd turbo nutter cars which is fine, but maybe this is where the problem lies? If power and traction was reduced (ie all low powered 2wd cars) maybe there would be less damage and less cost to reinstate. The sport would lose some spectacle but maybe it would be viable? As someone has said, perhaps turbo nutter cars stay on tarmac or they pay for the opportunity to rip up the forest?
There is also an irony here. The Welsh govt sponsor the Rally GB to the tune of c.£1m. And now they are doing their best to make their own event fail. God help us.
There is also an irony here. The Welsh govt sponsor the Rally GB to the tune of c.£1m. And now they are doing their best to make their own event fail. God help us.
Small Car said:
There is also an irony here. The Welsh govt sponsor the Rally GB to the tune of c.£1m. And now they are doing their best to make their own event fail. God help us.
Completely endemic of the area, unfortunately. The welsh govt. are either useless, corrupt, or both. The people around here suffer because the local councillors are too busy looking after themselves and their mates to bother with anyone else. Not that I'm bitter or anything...I am old enough to remember this same problem every year with the Forestry Commission, nothing seems to change .
I would love to see Rally GB move from wales ,I might then be bothered to go and see it ,something needs to change as the event is not the spectacle is was in the past .
Ex section commander,deputy clerk of the course and service crew member on national rallies.
Very little action now in darkest SE Kent .
I would love to see Rally GB move from wales ,I might then be bothered to go and see it ,something needs to change as the event is not the spectacle is was in the past .
Ex section commander,deputy clerk of the course and service crew member on national rallies.
Very little action now in darkest SE Kent .
framerateuk said:
It would be a shame if they can't sort this out, but I can see where Natural Resources Wales are coming from.
Having watched the Wales Rally GB most years at the "Halfway" stage, what are fairly well compacted gravel tracks in the morning are completely rutted by the afternoon. I'd imagine it would take several months of normal transport to achieve what 40 rally cars do in a day. You wouldn't believe how much of the surface they move!
I guess the problem is, unlike F1, WRC isn't bringing in the money it once was, so someone is bound to loose out somewhere.
I don't think the WRC has ever really brought much money in - for a 'global' sport it's pretty poor. Having watched the Wales Rally GB most years at the "Halfway" stage, what are fairly well compacted gravel tracks in the morning are completely rutted by the afternoon. I'd imagine it would take several months of normal transport to achieve what 40 rally cars do in a day. You wouldn't believe how much of the surface they move!
I guess the problem is, unlike F1, WRC isn't bringing in the money it once was, so someone is bound to loose out somewhere.
Edited by framerateuk on Thursday 5th May 18:10
And the many club events held in Wales will hardly bring in much despite people saying otherwise. Rallying is a small community, other leisure pursuits will likely bring more to the areas were there are forests.
Small Car said:
I am a big forest rally fan, done the Wales Rally GB twice, and potter along at the back with a low powered 2wd car. I pay the same as the 4wd turbo nutter cars which is fine, but maybe this is where the problem lies? If power and traction was reduced (ie all low powered 2wd cars) maybe there would be less damage and less cost to reinstate. The sport would lose some spectacle but maybe it would be viable? As someone has said, perhaps turbo nutter cars stay on tarmac or they pay for the opportunity to rip up the forest?
There is also an irony here. The Welsh govt sponsor the Rally GB to the tune of c.£1m. And now they are doing their best to make their own event fail. God help us.
Indeed.There is also an irony here. The Welsh govt sponsor the Rally GB to the tune of c.£1m. And now they are doing their best to make their own event fail. God help us.
I've long been in favour of banning 4wd in rallying. I know many from my old motorclub gave up the sport (or changed over to 2wd historics) back in the 90's because they got fed up with competing in the rutted tracks from the awd cars.
I stopped going to International stage rallying when the regional stages were, for obvious reasons, all consolidated in Wales. I have very happy memories of the Great Orm, Severn Bridge servine area and so on.
That said, the revered Margaret T helped shift our entire culture to the corrosive morality privatisation and milking 'Revenue Streams.' There is no such thing as society, went the refrain. The fallback arguement is often "YOU CAN ALWAYS CHOOSE NOT TO PARTICIPATE."
If the new wear & tear charges are extorted, there should be very detailed evidence to support their costings (fat chasnce!)
I reckon they just think the new rate wouldn't even buy you a works spec Worls Rally Car, so they'll get as much as possible.
Trebbles and bonuses all round...
That said, the revered Margaret T helped shift our entire culture to the corrosive morality privatisation and milking 'Revenue Streams.' There is no such thing as society, went the refrain. The fallback arguement is often "YOU CAN ALWAYS CHOOSE NOT TO PARTICIPATE."
If the new wear & tear charges are extorted, there should be very detailed evidence to support their costings (fat chasnce!)
I reckon they just think the new rate wouldn't even buy you a works spec Worls Rally Car, so they'll get as much as possible.
Trebbles and bonuses all round...
When I was rallying in NZ back in the 80s (before the 4WD explosion) we had free access to forestry roads. The local forestry commissions used to like the way we brushed all the loose gravel off for them and in their view improved the surface.
In many countries it is free to spectate a WRC event. We went to Germany some years ago instead of Wales in protest at the fees charged and I don't recall any charges at all.
Same with last one I went to in NZ (admittedly some years ago).
I would be happy to see rallying leave the forest for a return to road rallying. Can't see it though as the governments we have seem to have a distinct anti car bias.
In many countries it is free to spectate a WRC event. We went to Germany some years ago instead of Wales in protest at the fees charged and I don't recall any charges at all.
Same with last one I went to in NZ (admittedly some years ago).
I would be happy to see rallying leave the forest for a return to road rallying. Can't see it though as the governments we have seem to have a distinct anti car bias.
Alex Langheck said:
I don't think the WRC has ever really brought much money in - for a 'global' sport it's pretty poor.
And the many club events held in Wales will hardly bring in much despite people saying otherwise. Rallying is a small community, other leisure pursuits will likely bring more to the areas were there are forests.
Perhaps not. I just meant that the crowds I used to see climbing the mountains to get a got spot back in the Mcrae days were far larger than anything I've seen in the last 10 years.And the many club events held in Wales will hardly bring in much despite people saying otherwise. Rallying is a small community, other leisure pursuits will likely bring more to the areas were there are forests.
I have to admit, in recent years I've always gone to watch the National B more than WRC - far more interesting cars!
r1monkey said:
i think it is time it moved away from wales too. I used to go regularly when it was run in the north of England but it lost all its appeal when it was moved to wales.
In fairness, that's a "I used to go when it was near me" argument. So did I, it's up in North Wales now, hence I haven't been lately. It's good for these things to move around though. Ideally it would be in a different place every year. I miss the old "RAC Rally" format when it was all over the place and much longer.
framerateuk said:
In fairness, that's a "I used to go when it was near me" argument. So did I, it's up in North Wales now, hence I haven't been lately. It's good for these things to move around though. Ideally it would be in a different place every year. I miss the old "RAC Rally" format when it was all over the place and much longer.
Well that's another discussion. Staying in one region/ area is madness...and a sure fire way of lessening interest in a sport. But the MSA are richer thanks to Welsh £$£$£$...The Tour of Britain cycle race visits as many regions as it can....which sport is grabbing the public's attention?
As I've said elsewhere this is emphatically NOT about WRGB. Yes that uses the Welsh Forests and will have to pay those fees, but a great many of the teams involved in the international event can afford the doubling of forest use fees easily enough. Its the rest of the events that will be very hard hit if the MSA is forced into signing up for this.
The Forest Owners be that the Forestry commission, (England and Scotland) or Natural Resources Wales charge a fee per mile for use of the roads, currently it's £688.00 (I think) for both the FC and NRW land, the FC are signed up for that for another two years, but NWR are not. They are now wanting to double this charge.
In effect this means a Motor Club wanting to organise an event with lets say 40 miles of Forest stages will have to pay £27,250.00 to the NWR. via the MSA, this in addition to the MSA's permit fees insurance etc etc. That money has to come from the competitors, via an entry fee. Those competitors have already been hard pressed to afford the most recent round of safety related changes to Helmets, FHR's, Seats, Roll cages etc plus the additional damage many are suffering because of the new rules about running the faster cars exclusively at the front of the field and the forced double useage of the stages.
The Clubs (who you should realise are just collections of individuals working hard in their own time for no payment) are going to have to think very very hard if they are going to risk running an event where they are having to charge an unsustainable entry fee or risk making a heavy financial loss.
There is only so much the sport can take, its sturggling in many ways as it is, this is just another burden it really doesn't need.
It's sad that most people who might have an interest in this sort of Motorsport cannot see past the one event (WRGB) and turn any debate about Rallying into a discussion as to why its not like it used to be. We are bloody lucky we have what we have now, if this carries on, we will have nothing, but a few single venue events at sanitized race circuits.
Don't even think about closed roads.... not the answer, the costs would be eye-watering.
The Forest Owners be that the Forestry commission, (England and Scotland) or Natural Resources Wales charge a fee per mile for use of the roads, currently it's £688.00 (I think) for both the FC and NRW land, the FC are signed up for that for another two years, but NWR are not. They are now wanting to double this charge.
In effect this means a Motor Club wanting to organise an event with lets say 40 miles of Forest stages will have to pay £27,250.00 to the NWR. via the MSA, this in addition to the MSA's permit fees insurance etc etc. That money has to come from the competitors, via an entry fee. Those competitors have already been hard pressed to afford the most recent round of safety related changes to Helmets, FHR's, Seats, Roll cages etc plus the additional damage many are suffering because of the new rules about running the faster cars exclusively at the front of the field and the forced double useage of the stages.
The Clubs (who you should realise are just collections of individuals working hard in their own time for no payment) are going to have to think very very hard if they are going to risk running an event where they are having to charge an unsustainable entry fee or risk making a heavy financial loss.
There is only so much the sport can take, its sturggling in many ways as it is, this is just another burden it really doesn't need.
It's sad that most people who might have an interest in this sort of Motorsport cannot see past the one event (WRGB) and turn any debate about Rallying into a discussion as to why its not like it used to be. We are bloody lucky we have what we have now, if this carries on, we will have nothing, but a few single venue events at sanitized race circuits.
Don't even think about closed roads.... not the answer, the costs would be eye-watering.
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