Saturday 6th August 2016

Civic Type R vs Megane 275 Cup-S: PH Video

Civic versus Megane battle royale!

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With a Civic Type R on the PH Fleet and a reputation to uphold as one of the most exciting hot hatches in a long, long time we've certainly made it work for its living. Matt gave the Honda the nod after pitching it against the Focus RS at Anglesey; in this latest video outing Dan compares it with the Megane 275 Cup-S to explore whether this Type R has the necessaries to pick up where the Renault leaves off.

We've already run the feature on this particular head to head and you may well know the outcome already - whether you do or not, the video has a lot more detail on why both cars rank so highly in our league of all-time hot hatch greats. Buckle up!

Watch the video here.

 

[Tran]

Did you do more than 10 minutes of lapping in the Megane? Any sort of decent session and the 275 Cup-S derates quite heavily.....

[nickfrog]

Tran, what evidence of this do you have ? Many people here and on French sites track their Megane RS and I have never heard of this. Not saying you're wrong but it'd be good to understand how you got to that conclusion.

[Tran]

nickfrog said:

Tran, what evidence of this do you have ? Many people here and on French sites track their Megane RS and I have never heard of this. Not saying you're wrong but it'd be good to understand how you got to that conclusion.

nickfrog, it's specific to the EU6 variants, ie the Cup-S and 275 Nav so not many are out in the wild yet. Have you got an RS Monitor? If so, check your data.....

[Dan Trent]

What specifically are you referring to here?

We did plenty of laps in both cars and it was a short and pretty intensive section of Blyton so little time for the cars to gather breath. Didn't notice any issues with the Megane, beyond the fact the brake pedal isn't as solid as the Civic's. It never went long but nor did it *quite* inspire the same confidence.

Cheers,

Dan

[nickfrog]

Thanks - I have the RS Monitor - when you say check the data, you mean check power while on a track day ?
Weren't the older 275 engines EU6 ?
How did you find out about this situation ?

[Tran]

Dan Trent said:

What specifically are you referring to here?

We did plenty of laps in both cars and it was a short and pretty intensive section of Blyton so little time for the cars to gather breath. Didn't notice any issues with the Megane, beyond the fact the brake pedal isn't as solid as the Civic's. It never went long but nor did it *quite* inspire the same confidence.

Cheers,

Dan

Specifically the engine being unable to maintain 275PS after more than 15 continuous minutes in the hands of a decent driver on track, and not recovering until quite a few road miles later.

The rest of the car was fine, though can't comment on a comparison to the Civic.

nickfrog said:

Thanks - I have the RS Monitor - when you say check the data, you mean check power while on a track day ?
Weren't the older 275 engines EU6 ?
How did you find out about this situation ?

You can plug in a USB stick, data log then view the numbers back later.

No, the trophy engines were EU5.

Personal experience.

[jfryatt]

Come on Dan...hardcore? I think you're forgetting the R26.R had a cage/no rear seats, r888s and a blanking plate in place of the radio when it left the factory...

[nickfrog]

Tran said:

You can plug in a USB stick, data log then view the numbers back later.

No, the trophy engines were EU5.

Personal experience.

Cheers! I just looked at data from Spa 21/07 actually (forgot I even logged it!). Even after 25 minutes, I had no derating, that included most laps at just over 3:00 so 9/10ths at least. Oil temp at 103C.

When you say personal experience, it would be good to know more, even by PM.

I wish I had logged data at Bedford yesterday though.

[Blanchimont]

Tran said:

Dan Trent said:

What specifically are you referring to here?

We did plenty of laps in both cars and it was a short and pretty intensive section of Blyton so little time for the cars to gather breath. Didn't notice any issues with the Megane, beyond the fact the brake pedal isn't as solid as the Civic's. It never went long but nor did it *quite* inspire the same confidence.

Cheers,

Dan

Specifically the engine being unable to maintain 275PS after more than 15 continuous minutes in the hands of a decent driver on track, and not recovering until quite a few road miles later.

The rest of the car was fine, though can't comment on a comparison to the Civic.

nickfrog said:

Thanks - I have the RS Monitor - when you say check the data, you mean check power while on a track day ?
Weren't the older 275 engines EU6 ?
How did you find out about this situation ?

You can plug in a USB stick, data log then view the numbers back later.

No, the trophy engines were EU5.

Personal experience.

The 275's are fitted with Stop Start, all of which came only on the EU6 engines. I think it changed from 5-6 with the facelift, because all S/S cars are cheaper to tax, which is a thing with EU6.

The brake pads on the std car are, well, st. They're too soft. New pads it transforms the feel.

Also, Unless the car you drove had a shagged turbo, it does not have a 75ps overboost. I've driven my 265 hard for extended periods of time, and it's always felt as quick as 260hp does.

Sorry, but coming from an owner of one, you're wrong.

eta: Great video. I'm properly glad I managed to get an RS.

[Tran]

nickfrog said:

Cheers! I just looked at data from Spa 21/07 actually (forgot I even logged it!). Even after 25 minutes, I had no derating, that included most laps at just over 3:00 so 9/10ths at least. Oil temp at 103C.

When you say personal experience, it would be good to know more, even by PM.

I wish I had logged data at Bedford yesterday though.

How far over 3:00? Impressive pace if just over....

Have a look at the power colour maps from an early lap in the day and compare to one of the last.

Personal experience was going to the 'Ring in one. Never felt as quick as my old EU5 265 from lap 1, but by lap 3, something was clearly amiss. A trip to the local Renault dealer confirmed my suspicions....

Blanchimont said:

The 275's are fitted with Stop Start, all of which came only on the EU6 engines. I think it changed from 5-6 with the facelift, because all S/S cars are cheaper to tax, which is a thing with EU6.

Every Megane RS since around September 2012 has come with stop start, well before the introduction of the EU6 engines (which was around September 2015 with the 275 Cup-S and 275 Nav btw).

Blanchimont said:

Also, Unless the car you drove had a shagged turbo, it does not have a 75ps overboost. I've driven my 265 hard for extended periods of time, and it's always felt as quick as 260hp does.

Would hope a 2000 mile old car wouldn't have a shagged turbo.... Strange how it was back to usual strength by the time I'd reached Belgium... How hard is hard though? Unless you've done a trackday while driving an EU6 275, you won't see it.

Blanchimont said:

Sorry, but coming from an owner of one, you're wrong.

But you don't own one... You own an EU5 265, not the EU6 275 I am clearly specifically referring to....

[nickfrog]

Tran said:

nickfrog said:

Cheers! I just looked at data from Spa 21/07 actually (forgot I even logged it!). Even after 25 minutes, I had no derating, that included most laps at just over 3:00 so 9/10ths at least. Oil temp at 103C.

When you say personal experience, it would be good to know more, even by PM.

I wish I had logged data at Bedford yesterday though.

How far over 3:00? Impressive pace if just over....

Have a look at the power colour maps from an early lap in the day and compare to one of the last.

Personal experience was going to the 'Ring in one. Never felt as quick as my old EU5 265 from lap 1, but by lap 3, something was clearly amiss. A trip to the local Renault dealer confirmed my suspicions....

Typically I only recorded the data of the first session - the thing is, I can't remember the other sessions being any worse. I am pretty sure I would have felt such a drop in power. Best at 3.02 and up to 3.07 with varying traffic density (it was sessioned).

What did the local Renault dealer say ? Was it a rental ? More background would be good as I want to make sure this is not a future issue or one I didn't spot.

Edited by nickfrog on Wednesday 3rd August 17:04

[Blanchimont]

Tran said:

Blanchimont said:

The 275's are fitted with Stop Start, all of which came only on the EU6 engines. I think it changed from 5-6 with the facelift, because all S/S cars are cheaper to tax, which is a thing with EU6.

Every Megane RS since around September 2012 has come with stop start, well before the introduction of the EU6 engines (which was around September 2015 with the 275 Cup-S and 275 Nav btw).

Blanchimont said:

Also, Unless the car you drove had a shagged turbo, it does not have a 75ps overboost. I've driven my 265 hard for extended periods of time, and it's always felt as quick as 260hp does.

Would hope a 2000 mile old car wouldn't have a shagged turbo.... Strange how it was back to usual strength by the time I'd reached Belgium... How hard is hard though? Unless you've done a trackday while driving an EU6 275, you won't see it.

Blanchimont said:

Sorry, but coming from an owner of one, you're wrong.

But you don't own one... You own an EU5 265, not the EU6 275 I am clearly specifically referring to....

Have a look at this. Where does it say explicitly only the Cup-s and nav? Page 18.
https://www.renault.co.uk/content/dam/Renault/UK/b...

Whether the Trophy was EU5 or 6, does it matter? Nobody has ever reported an issue about this, apart from you. Unless it was a problem unique to yours, IE turbo or something like that. Either it's user error, or a problem with that car. Or, it wasn't in sport mode.

I really don't care what euro code mine is, it does what I want it to.

Have you got some sort of Vendetta again the RS, as you appear to have slated it on pretty much every recent comment made about them.

[vz-r_dave]

Blanchimont said:

Tran said:

Blanchimont said:

The 275's are fitted with Stop Start, all of which came only on the EU6 engines. I think it changed from 5-6 with the facelift, because all S/S cars are cheaper to tax, which is a thing with EU6.

Every Megane RS since around September 2012 has come with stop start, well before the introduction of the EU6 engines (which was around September 2015 with the 275 Cup-S and 275 Nav btw).

Blanchimont said:

Also, Unless the car you drove had a shagged turbo, it does not have a 75ps overboost. I've driven my 265 hard for extended periods of time, and it's always felt as quick as 260hp does.

Would hope a 2000 mile old car wouldn't have a shagged turbo.... Strange how it was back to usual strength by the time I'd reached Belgium... How hard is hard though? Unless you've done a trackday while driving an EU6 275, you won't see it.

Blanchimont said:

Sorry, but coming from an owner of one, you're wrong.

But you don't own one... You own an EU5 265, not the EU6 275 I am clearly specifically referring to....

Have a look at this. Where does it say explicitly only the Cup-s and nav? Page 18.
https://www.renault.co.uk/content/dam/Renault/UK/b...

Whether the Trophy was EU5 or 6, does it matter? Nobody has ever reported an issue about this, apart from you. Unless it was a problem unique to yours, IE turbo or something like that. Either it's user error, or a problem with that car. Or, it wasn't in sport mode.

I really don't care what euro code mine is, it does what I want it to.

Have you got some sort of Vendetta again the RS, as you appear to have slated it on pretty much every recent comment made about them.

He is not debating your euro code or did I read it wrong? He has quite specifically noted EU6 so why are you still responding to him unless you speak on behalf of Renault?

[Blanchimont]

vz-r_dave said:

Blanchimont said:

Tran said:

Blanchimont said:

The 275's are fitted with Stop Start, all of which came only on the EU6 engines. I think it changed from 5-6 with the facelift, because all S/S cars are cheaper to tax, which is a thing with EU6.

Every Megane RS since around September 2012 has come with stop start, well before the introduction of the EU6 engines (which was around September 2015 with the 275 Cup-S and 275 Nav btw).

Blanchimont said:

Also, Unless the car you drove had a shagged turbo, it does not have a 75ps overboost. I've driven my 265 hard for extended periods of time, and it's always felt as quick as 260hp does.

Would hope a 2000 mile old car wouldn't have a shagged turbo.... Strange how it was back to usual strength by the time I'd reached Belgium... How hard is hard though? Unless you've done a trackday while driving an EU6 275, you won't see it.

Blanchimont said:

Sorry, but coming from an owner of one, you're wrong.

But you don't own one... You own an EU5 265, not the EU6 275 I am clearly specifically referring to....

Have a look at this. Where does it say explicitly only the Cup-s and nav? Page 18.
https://www.renault.co.uk/content/dam/Renault/UK/b...

Whether the Trophy was EU5 or 6, does it matter? Nobody has ever reported an issue about this, apart from you. Unless it was a problem unique to yours, IE turbo or something like that. Either it's user error, or a problem with that car. Or, it wasn't in sport mode.

I really don't care what euro code mine is, it does what I want it to.

Have you got some sort of Vendetta again the RS, as you appear to have slated it on pretty much every recent comment made about them.

He is not debating your euro code or did I read it wrong? He has quite specifically noted EU6 so why are you still responding to him unless you speak on behalf of Renault?

My euro code wasn't part of it. He's referring to the later 275's which have. He's stating the Trophy models aren't EU6, when the link merely says "275S&S" is EU6, which the Trophy has said engine.

[Alex_6n2]

Tran said:

Have a look at the power colour maps from an early lap in the day and compare to one of the last.

Personal experience was going to the 'Ring in one. Never felt as quick as my old EU5 265 from lap 1, but by lap 3, something was clearly amiss. A trip to the local Renault dealer confirmed my suspicions....

Can you give us more information on what the dealer said?

There was an issue that cropped up on the 250s a few years ago, which required the standard maps to be re-loaded

My 275 felt just as quick at the end of my day at Bedford, but I'm curious to know what's causing your issue.

[Tran]

Blanchimont said:

Have a look at this. Where does it say explicitly only the Cup-s and nav? Page 18.
https://www.renault.co.uk/content/dam/Renault/UK/b...

Uhhh. Try and buy something other than a Cup-S or a Nav now... So what you're saying is in 2016 you can buy an EU6 car. Great... Keep googling until you find the Trophy/Trophy-R brochure, or the one for your 265 from back in the day.

Blanchimont said:

Whether the Trophy was EU5 or 6, does it matter? Nobody has ever reported an issue about this, apart from you. Unless it was a problem unique to yours, IE turbo or something like that. Either it's user error, or a problem with that car. Or, it wasn't in sport mode.

How do you know nobody has ever reported it... The fact is it shouldn't matter to you whether it's EU5 or 6, but it does due to this issue that Renault have dropped the ball on. Despite the same headline book specs, there are key differences, eg calibration.

vz-r_dave said:

He is not debating your euro code or did I read it wrong? He has quite specifically noted EU6 so why are you still responding to him unless you speak on behalf of Renault?

Exactly. I'm not talking about this guy's car at all. He seems so infatuated with his (different!) car that it's like I've insulted his girlfriend or something.... Then posts up a link saying exactly what I said?

[Tran]

Alex_6n2 said:

Can you give us more information on what the dealer said?

There was an issue that cropped up on the 250s a few years ago, which required the standard maps to be re-loaded

My 275 felt just as quick at the end of my day at Bedford, but I'm curious to know what's causing your issue.

The dealer said that the issue wasn't isolated to that specific car....

[Alex_6n2]

Interesting

There are a few differences on the EU6 engines according to RSTuning (Wideband Lambda, closed loop fuelling)

Mine definitely didn't feel down on power but will be interesting to see if there is a systemic issue.

[nickfrog]

Tran said:

The dealer said that the issue wasn't isolated to that specific car....

nickfrog said:

What did the local Renault dealer say ? Was it a rental ? More background would be good as I want to make sure this is not a future issue or one I didn't spot.

Could you please give us a bit more background :

What did the dealer say ?
What is the issue ? ie what are the parameters for it to manifest itself ?
Which dealer ?
Was it a rental ?

You said it wasn't reported as the car is too recent yet the dealer has seen several of them tracked and exacerbating the issue.

Feel free to PM me if you prefer.

[Tran]

nickfrog said:

Could you please give us a bit more background :

What did the dealer say ?
What is the issue ? ie what are the parameters for it to manifest itself ?
Which dealer ?
Was it a rental ?

You said it wasn't reported as the car is too recent yet the dealer has seen several of them tracked and exacerbating the issue.

Feel free to PM me if you prefer.

Sorry, missed your response earlier.

Dealer said it was a known issue with no fix as of July.

It is a de-rate at high speed/load conditions in high ambient temperatures. However it doesn't happen immediately so you will likely not encounter this error state on the road. It progressively gets worse if you keep on it.

Autohaus Kirfel.

Not a rental.