RE: AMG GT Roadster versus SL: PH?Blog
Thursday 22nd September 2016
Following confirmation of a roadster version of the AMG GT, chatter in the PH office turned to where this leaves the SL. Namely, does it still have a place in the Mercedes line-up?
The SL has come a long way since this...This may seem unthinkable given its near 60-year history as Mercedes' flagship drop-top and a defining model for the brand's identity. Originally a racing coupe turned into a roadgoing supercar combining speed, the latest technology and luxury the SL quickly shifted its focus, losing its roof and concentrating on the latter. As the years went by that original racing pedigree seemed more and more distant, the pretty W113 'Pagoda', wafty 80s R107 and sleek R129 all capturing the style of their respective times but piling on the weight as they went. Even extensive use of aluminium in the structure can't stop the current R231 SL weighing close to two tonnes, the middle-aged spread matching that of the stereotypical owner. Sportlich Leicht seems a very distant memory indeed.
Has the S-Class rendered the SL obsolete?The SL retains that folding hardtop and ability to play both coupe and roadster. But if you want wafty and fast with the wind in your hair the S-Class cabrio has status, space and seating for four. While the GT Roadster harks back to the sporting bloodline embodied by the original 300SL. The SLS on which the GT is based was, of course, a successful racing car in its own right and there's a GT3 version of the GT ready to pick up where it left off.
AMG GT Roadster versus SL: PH Blog
With the arrival of the Mercedes-AMG GT Roadster is there any future for the long-serving SL?
The SL has come a long way since this...
Thus far nobody has really threatened the niche Mercedes carved for itself with the SL but, after all this time, the long-serving roadster finds itself squeezed between other cars in the range. On one side you have the S-Class cabriolet, catering to the - how shall we put this - mature and more luxury focused end of the market. And now those who might naturally have gravitated toward the louder and more lairy end of the SL spectrum - defined by AMG - have an alternative and much sportier choice in the shape of the GT Roadster.
Has the S-Class rendered the SL obsolete?
This informs the dynamics of the road car too, the transaxle layout of the GT with its front/mid V8 engine and rear-mounted gearbox meaning it has a more favourable weight distribution than the SL. And, of course, it's a ground-up AMG car rather than a hot-rodded mainstream Merc. A kerbweight not far off 1,700kg for the GT Roadster isn't what you'd call light but it's where the weight is contained that'll make the difference to the way it drives, the fabric roof less fancy than the SL's folding hardtop perhaps but keeping what extra weight there is low in the car.
Six decades ago the SL's masterstroke was to offer a car of equal appeal to the poser and the serious driver, symbolising Mercedes' mastery of both luxury motoring and racing success in one package. Now that distinction has been divided and separated across a number of different model lines. Begging the question, where does that leave the SL?
Nik
Discussion
Well, may I suggest you drive them both?
And if you have - report objectively?
As an example, the SL driver who buys (say) an SL500 and shuns the SL AMG is already removed from the driver who considers the AMG GT as a prospective purchase.
You buy an SL500 because you want understated class. You want 400bhp+ of shove for easy overtakes and you want the pinnacle of Mercedes UI for when you turn off the A36 and drive to the South of France just for the hell of it. You certainly don't give a rats ass about depreciation, and you DON'T want a "Sports car"
An SL500 is for a "Gentleman", a person that has made their money but isn't interested in being overly flash when spending it.
There will always be a customer niche for the product.
Rather than diluting the SL appeal, the AMG GT crystallizes the differences.
Equally, you buy an SL over a 4-seat S-class cab because you can. Maybe the kids have flown, probably you have a Company motor for passenger duties. The SL is an indulgence. The thinking-man's Mercedes.
(Yes of course I have one and am totally biased!)
And if you have - report objectively?
As an example, the SL driver who buys (say) an SL500 and shuns the SL AMG is already removed from the driver who considers the AMG GT as a prospective purchase.
You buy an SL500 because you want understated class. You want 400bhp+ of shove for easy overtakes and you want the pinnacle of Mercedes UI for when you turn off the A36 and drive to the South of France just for the hell of it. You certainly don't give a rats ass about depreciation, and you DON'T want a "Sports car"
An SL500 is for a "Gentleman", a person that has made their money but isn't interested in being overly flash when spending it.
There will always be a customer niche for the product.
Rather than diluting the SL appeal, the AMG GT crystallizes the differences.
Equally, you buy an SL over a 4-seat S-class cab because you can. Maybe the kids have flown, probably you have a Company motor for passenger duties. The SL is an indulgence. The thinking-man's Mercedes.
(Yes of course I have one and am totally biased!)
As a former SL owner, I must chime in here and say that presently (as I believe, sadly, the next-gen SL will revert to a soft-top) there is a gulf between the character and ownership experience of an SL and an AMG GT Roadster.
For a start, no soft-top car in my experience comes close to roof-up refinement as an SL and that includes various Bentley and Rolls-Royce convertibles.
Secondly, as has been said above, the SL is not a 'shouty' car in the way an AMG GT is; the whole point of them is to mooch around in but still have the muscle to move quickly when required with the minimum of fanfare or fuss.
Let's not even talk about the price or the styling differences.
I believe that both these cars are aimed at different buyers and while I would gladly drive either I would not say one renders the other superfluous, at all. One is a GT, the other is a sports car.
For a start, no soft-top car in my experience comes close to roof-up refinement as an SL and that includes various Bentley and Rolls-Royce convertibles.
Secondly, as has been said above, the SL is not a 'shouty' car in the way an AMG GT is; the whole point of them is to mooch around in but still have the muscle to move quickly when required with the minimum of fanfare or fuss.
Let's not even talk about the price or the styling differences.
I believe that both these cars are aimed at different buyers and while I would gladly drive either I would not say one renders the other superfluous, at all. One is a GT, the other is a sports car.
sidesauce said:
As a former SL owner, I must chime in here and say that presently (as I believe, sadly, the next-gen SL will revert to a soft-top) there is a gulf between the character and ownership experience of an SL and an AMG GT Roadster.
Clav, why do you think the next SL will be a soft-top?Fresh Prince said:
sidesauce said:
As a former SL owner, I must chime in here and say that presently (as I believe, sadly, the next-gen SL will revert to a soft-top) there is a gulf between the character and ownership experience of an SL and an AMG GT Roadster.
Clav, why do you think the next SL will be a soft-top?sidesauce said:
the SL is not a 'shouty' car in the way an AMG GT is; the whole point of them is to mooch around in but still have the muscle to move quickly when required with the minimum of fanfare or fuss.
This makes me wonder what the sales split been AMG and non-AMG SL's is. Like it or not, the former are very much 'shouty' cars.I feel like I notice way more SL55/63/65 AMGs than non-AMG versions. But maybe that's because I'm a petrolhead and the ones without noisy quad exhausts go under my radar.
In a world where Mercedes seem hell-bent in filling every automotove niche, I can't see them killing off a model with such heritage and cache as the SL, but maybe AMG will focus / invest less on their variants of this model? For example, surely we've seen the last of a V8 AND V12 AMG SL?
I, for one, hope the new SL retains the folding hardtop.
I don't own one currently but have used a SL550 many times on vacation - fantastic car with a glorious engine, just does everything right.
And with a well-appointed interior. Only criticism is that, from some angles, the looks are a little challenging, but it gets better with age and at least it's distinctive.
So I hope they continue with the theme.
I don't own one currently but have used a SL550 many times on vacation - fantastic car with a glorious engine, just does everything right.
And with a well-appointed interior. Only criticism is that, from some angles, the looks are a little challenging, but it gets better with age and at least it's distinctive.
So I hope they continue with the theme.
If your comparing AMG GT to non AMG SL then price is a pretty big separator along with the folding hardtop.
If your comparing the SL63 to the AMG GT roadster I actually prefer the SL
It's looks sharp, it's got a folding hardtop and combines the best of both worlds a GT and convertible
While the GT roadster does currently look better from a styling perspective it's IMO the more compromised car, not as sharp as the GT to drive and no as versatile as the SL as a convertible
If the SL63 had styling to match the GT roadsters I think it would be the bigger seller
If your comparing the SL63 to the AMG GT roadster I actually prefer the SL
It's looks sharp, it's got a folding hardtop and combines the best of both worlds a GT and convertible
While the GT roadster does currently look better from a styling perspective it's IMO the more compromised car, not as sharp as the GT to drive and no as versatile as the SL as a convertible
If the SL63 had styling to match the GT roadsters I think it would be the bigger seller
SLs have always been heavy. The r129 with a 5 litre V8 tips the scales at 1889kg (with a soft top) so the current SL at around teh same weight with a folding hardtop is comparatively lithe.
The simple fact is the SL is not a sports car, nor a serious drivers car and never was. It was a car you could drive for hours in in comfort, then on arrival at the Riviera drop the top and cruise the boulevards in understated style. The 2 seater nature was the excuse not to take the kids but rather leave them with the nanny or at boarding school (though in reality I suspect most new SL buyers were of an age where the children had fled the nest and 4 seats were not required). An S class soft top isn't a competitor to the SL - its a logical step up for the family man who has an E Class cabriolet at the moment and wants something a little more exclusive.
Similarly the SLS is targeted more at the folks who want an understated supercar - something the SL never was.
The simple fact is the SL is not a sports car, nor a serious drivers car and never was. It was a car you could drive for hours in in comfort, then on arrival at the Riviera drop the top and cruise the boulevards in understated style. The 2 seater nature was the excuse not to take the kids but rather leave them with the nanny or at boarding school (though in reality I suspect most new SL buyers were of an age where the children had fled the nest and 4 seats were not required). An S class soft top isn't a competitor to the SL - its a logical step up for the family man who has an E Class cabriolet at the moment and wants something a little more exclusive.
Similarly the SLS is targeted more at the folks who want an understated supercar - something the SL never was.
Oh uneducated naysayers! How many of you have ever driven an SL or a AMG GT? I have back to back and on the track in anger! An SL63 with the performance package bolted on is most definitely a drivers machine just ask that man Chris Harris:
http://www.evo.co.uk/mercedes/sl/10821/mercedes-be...
No other car combines everything so well... Its a cruiser, bruiser, convertible, easy to drive or challenging as OFF really does mean OFF! A sophisticated choice with rakish tendancy for misbehavior!
Im biased but ive driven lots of interesting metal and this is by far my favourite!
]
http://www.evo.co.uk/mercedes/sl/10821/mercedes-be...
No other car combines everything so well... Its a cruiser, bruiser, convertible, easy to drive or challenging as OFF really does mean OFF! A sophisticated choice with rakish tendancy for misbehavior!
Im biased but ive driven lots of interesting metal and this is by far my favourite!
]
Edited by only1ian on Saturday 24th September 19:01
only1ian said:
Oh uneducated naysayers! How many of you have ever driven an SL or a AMG GT? I have back to back and on the track in anger! An SL63 with the performance package and is most definitely a drivers machine just ask that man Chris Harris:
http://www.evo.co.uk/mercedes/sl/10821/mercedes-be...
No other car combines does everything so well... Its a cruiser, bruiser, convertible, easy to drive or challenging as OFF really does mean OFF! A sophisticated choice with rakish tendancy for misbehavior!
Im biased but ive driven lots of interesting metal and this is by far my favourite!
I love the 2008 to 2012 SL63 hopefully people will carry on thinking its crap so it can drop another 10 to 15 k and then I'm gonna seriously consider buying one.http://www.evo.co.uk/mercedes/sl/10821/mercedes-be...
No other car combines does everything so well... Its a cruiser, bruiser, convertible, easy to drive or challenging as OFF really does mean OFF! A sophisticated choice with rakish tendancy for misbehavior!
Im biased but ive driven lots of interesting metal and this is by far my favourite!
Edited by only1ian on Thursday 22 September 16:38
AdamV8V said:
sidesauce said:
the SL is not a 'shouty' car in the way an AMG GT is; the whole point of them is to mooch around in but still have the muscle to move quickly when required with the minimum of fanfare or fuss.
Like it or not, the former are very much 'shouty' cars.From what a couple of dealers told me, they expect total UK sales of the SL to be less than 2000 cars per year (about 50% less than the R230 at its peak) but even so, the majority of them being sold are now 400s. Having driven the face lifted 400 and 500 back to back I'll probably go with the 400 as my next purchase - its real world performance is very close to its bigger brother; more importantly, its super smooth character (to me, the SL's rasion d'être) isn't lost at all and overall purchase/running costs are significantly cheaper!
I guess if you REALLY want a shouty SL, Mercedes will offer it but I see the AMG versions of the SL as just that; shouty versions of a non-shouty car, not a model in their own right, as opposed to the AMG GT which by design is far more overt in its intent.
I also very much agree with the person above who hopes they keep the hard-top roof!
Mercedes' relentless introduction of new models spreads their existing market share more thinly, perhaps winning a few new customers along the way. This works well when the platforms can be used for multiple segments ie coupes, SUVs, salons.... utilising the same underpinnings maintains a low production cost per unit while adding agility into their supply chain. From what I understand the SL platform is unique, like the G class which incidentally do not follow the same sales KPIs as the more "mainstream" models; so if the SL follows suit I cannot see why they would discontinue the series even if it became less profitable as the model retains such significance within their heritage.
With the GT (certainly the SLS) the ride can be a little cumbersome as you sit on the back axle being bounced around as you drive along our British bumpy roads. My SLS would become tiresome to the extent where I found it to be a little too much to be justified as a daily and I would expect the GT to be similar although perhaps slightly more refined. The S coupe (assuming it shares the same characteristics as the CL) is all about cruising, it wafts you along in supreme comfort but doesn't deliver a dynamic drive whatsoever. I collected an SL63 r231 last weekend and I am pleasantly surprised how capable it is. It delivers 85-90% of the performance and comfort of the other two.
I would argue the SL is a seriously underrated car which still retains its niche with the introduction of the new models, although probably slightly diminished, but hopefully not to the extent where it would be discontinued as it occupies a wonderful ownership proposition. If anything I would be more concerned about the SLS convertible retaining the same superhero status when the GT C hits the roads....
With the GT (certainly the SLS) the ride can be a little cumbersome as you sit on the back axle being bounced around as you drive along our British bumpy roads. My SLS would become tiresome to the extent where I found it to be a little too much to be justified as a daily and I would expect the GT to be similar although perhaps slightly more refined. The S coupe (assuming it shares the same characteristics as the CL) is all about cruising, it wafts you along in supreme comfort but doesn't deliver a dynamic drive whatsoever. I collected an SL63 r231 last weekend and I am pleasantly surprised how capable it is. It delivers 85-90% of the performance and comfort of the other two.
I would argue the SL is a seriously underrated car which still retains its niche with the introduction of the new models, although probably slightly diminished, but hopefully not to the extent where it would be discontinued as it occupies a wonderful ownership proposition. If anything I would be more concerned about the SLS convertible retaining the same superhero status when the GT C hits the roads....
"Begging the question, where does that leave the SL?"
SL is a "nice cruiser" and doesn't have much serious competition at the price.
If you want a "driver's car" for the price of AMG GT, I'd take a base McLaren instead. Some might prefer a 911.
lostkiwi said:
SLs have always been heavy.
That's IMO the fundamental difference. AMG GT is, like its SLS predecessor, a much "lighter" drive than SL. And IMO the GT is an absolute bargain compared with the rather silly and overpriced SLS. However, both are a bit awkward to drive in UK with the very long bonnet making junctions a pain and tight manoeverability a challenge.SL is a "nice cruiser" and doesn't have much serious competition at the price.
If you want a "driver's car" for the price of AMG GT, I'd take a base McLaren instead. Some might prefer a 911.
peter450 said:
only1ian said:
Oh uneducated naysayers! How many of you have ever driven an SL or a AMG GT? I have back to back and on the track in anger! An SL63 with the performance package and is most definitely a drivers machine just ask that man Chris Harris:
http://www.evo.co.uk/mercedes/sl/10821/mercedes-be...
No other car combines does everything so well... Its a cruiser, bruiser, convertible, easy to drive or challenging as OFF really does mean OFF! A sophisticated choice with rakish tendancy for misbehavior!
Im biased but ive driven lots of interesting metal and this is by far my favourite!
I love the 2008 to 2012 SL63 hopefully people will carry on thinking its crap so it can drop another 10 to 15 k and then I'm gonna seriously consider buying one.http://www.evo.co.uk/mercedes/sl/10821/mercedes-be...
No other car combines does everything so well... Its a cruiser, bruiser, convertible, easy to drive or challenging as OFF really does mean OFF! A sophisticated choice with rakish tendancy for misbehavior!
Im biased but ive driven lots of interesting metal and this is by far my favourite!
Edited by only1ian on Thursday 22 September 16:38
Ok peter money where your mouth is time! Ill sell you my 2009 Sl63 with the performance pack 65000miles full mbsh for £25000 plus postage! £10k less than anything else in the uk!
Not going to happen.
It's like saying VW will kill the Golf or Porsche ceasing 911 production...
OK. The SL does not sell as many as the above but the UK and even Europe hasn't really been the main market for the SL, the US has. Plus, the AMG GT, whilst a very good car is a passing fancy - something that won't be here in 10,20 years time. The SL will.
I don't like the rumours that the next SL will be SLC based and have a soft roof, but I suppose for the sake of cost - something that runs deep in decision making over want - then it does make sense.
But there will still be an SL.
It's like saying VW will kill the Golf or Porsche ceasing 911 production...
OK. The SL does not sell as many as the above but the UK and even Europe hasn't really been the main market for the SL, the US has. Plus, the AMG GT, whilst a very good car is a passing fancy - something that won't be here in 10,20 years time. The SL will.
I don't like the rumours that the next SL will be SLC based and have a soft roof, but I suppose for the sake of cost - something that runs deep in decision making over want - then it does make sense.
But there will still be an SL.
First post for me, but I have to say something as I'm passionate about SLs.
My view is that the SL has a very special niche as a GT, forget the words Super Light, it was never ever super light, this is a car that entered the world with a modified truck engine, if you want light, buy a Lotus, but don't expect an air scarf, masaging seats in a luxurious cabin.
Nothing else will cruise effortlessly across Europe to the Alps in enjoying the tranquility that only a glass hard top delivers. When you get of the autobahn then the roof folds away and you can enjoy the fresh air. Cloth tops simply don't cut it. What's more you can't see though a Stone Age rag top, remarkable stuff glass!
In the real world my R231 350SL is fine, in fact only 10 percent of buyers opt for the V8. 0-60 in 5.9 is brisk enough and I suspect that it's 306 bhp would push it to at least 170mph if you took off the restrictor, so it's brisk. It's successor the very basic SL400 will hit 60 in 4.9 seconds, that's only a tenth behind the original Audi R8 from memory... And we're talking the poverty spec models.
So the SL is a GT, so yes it isn't as sporty as some, but it is a satisfying steer.
So please let's hope that the SL maintains its very special place. I don't need 4 seats so the S class cabriolet is for others ( and let's face it it is a barge), the full on sports options also are increasingly irrelevant. My only request would be to make the exterior as special as the interior, but please, no 'sports' suspension, the A5086 isn't that smooth.
Interestingly no one has mentioned the idea of the giant backward step of a rag top with a removable hard top. Just a bad idea for completeness.
Apologies if I came over shouty, but this is important people.
My view is that the SL has a very special niche as a GT, forget the words Super Light, it was never ever super light, this is a car that entered the world with a modified truck engine, if you want light, buy a Lotus, but don't expect an air scarf, masaging seats in a luxurious cabin.
Nothing else will cruise effortlessly across Europe to the Alps in enjoying the tranquility that only a glass hard top delivers. When you get of the autobahn then the roof folds away and you can enjoy the fresh air. Cloth tops simply don't cut it. What's more you can't see though a Stone Age rag top, remarkable stuff glass!
In the real world my R231 350SL is fine, in fact only 10 percent of buyers opt for the V8. 0-60 in 5.9 is brisk enough and I suspect that it's 306 bhp would push it to at least 170mph if you took off the restrictor, so it's brisk. It's successor the very basic SL400 will hit 60 in 4.9 seconds, that's only a tenth behind the original Audi R8 from memory... And we're talking the poverty spec models.
So the SL is a GT, so yes it isn't as sporty as some, but it is a satisfying steer.
So please let's hope that the SL maintains its very special place. I don't need 4 seats so the S class cabriolet is for others ( and let's face it it is a barge), the full on sports options also are increasingly irrelevant. My only request would be to make the exterior as special as the interior, but please, no 'sports' suspension, the A5086 isn't that smooth.
Interestingly no one has mentioned the idea of the giant backward step of a rag top with a removable hard top. Just a bad idea for completeness.
Apologies if I came over shouty, but this is important people.
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