RE: Jaguar versus Porsche: PH blog
Tuesday 1st November 2016
Is the Jaguar F-Type an expensive alternative to a Boxster or Cayman? Or the bargain British rival to the 911? Much as we'd love to be able to contrive a direct comparison between an F-Type variant and its Porsche equivalent there isn't quite the overlap there in the range to inspire the 'England v. Germany' showdown any self-respecting (or, rather, click hungry) editor would like.
Push the Cayman budget or trim the 911 fund?We've tried pitching a basic F-Type Coupe against an equivalent 911 and ended up with a £60K Jaguar battling a Porsche costing nearly twice that, once distortions like options pricing had been taken into account. Four-wheel drive, 575hp SVR and 580hp 911 Turbo S is probably as close as you'll get in performance and positioning but the £110K starting price for the Jag is still £35K less than that of the Porsche.
Previous F-Type v. 911 comparison didn't work...Meanwhile as the 911 - now also turbocharged of course - steadily becomes a more grown-up and expensive proposition the six-cylinder F-Type is quite possibly well-placed to pick up on those who hadn't quite yet realised a plain vanilla Carrera 2 is £76K and an S is now a few options ticks away from a six-figure pricetag. Once more, against that an F-Type is a less polished, prestigious and mature option. But, by heck, that money you set aside for your Carrera can get you a 500hp V8, armfuls of oversteer on demand and exhaust noise to make the neighbours tut every time you leave the house. Who wants 'prestigious and mature' anyway?
Jaguar versus Porsche: PH blog
Having put a few miles in with 'his' F-Type Dan wants to settle this once and for all
Push the Cayman budget or trim the 911 fund?
Amazingly enough it is actually possible to consider a sports car's position in the overall market without slavish comparisons to Porsche's carefully managed range hierarchy. But in the initial miles in 'my' F-Type Coupe long-termer I couldn't help pondering why Jaguar seems to have steadfastly avoided the temptation for direct confrontation, given it must have Porsche customers very much in its sights as potential F-Type buyers.
The recent developments in the Germans' product line-up are bit of a blessing for Jaguar though. The 718 Cayman/Boxster range going four-cylinder gives an immediate incentive for those craving the more emotive six-cylinder soundtrack and 'big engine' feel to stretch up to an F-Type. Because, if there's one thing Jaguar does very well, it's emotive. Throw the £70K our F-Type S long-termer costs at a Cayman - as Porsche GB did with the 718 S press car we drove - and you end up with a very, very fancy and focused car. Arguably a better pure sports car from a driving perspective too. But, no matter how effective, the four-cylinder thing seems a sufficient turn-off for many that it's now significantly less capable of plucking the heartstrings. Which is arguably at least as important as 0-62 comparisons or 'ring lap times.
Previous F-Type v. 911 comparison didn't work...
From the start I've thought the F-Type is probably more aimed at 911 drivers than Boxster/Cayman buyers. That it's now sitting in the £60-70K heartland the 911 has vacated in its move upmarket gives Jaguar a great opportunity to claim this ground its own. Without the need for endless comparisons to Porsche products. Which is hopefully a blessed relief to all of us, leaving me to enjoy the F-Type for what it is.
Dan
Discussion
Dan - its all very well talking about the cost up front. But what's the depreciation like on a 911 and an F-Type? My guess is that you can spend less day 1 on the F-Type but lose more over time. So would be nice to see an article that talks about the real cost of ownership over say a 3 year period.
oldtimer2 said:
So how did you enjoy the F type?
More importantly, the Jag is a good few hundred kgs heavier than the 911*, so pure bhp comparisons are meaningless - bhp/tonne is far more relevant on the road (and lb/ft per tonne).
...so taking bhp/tonne:-
- both the entry level V6 F-Type and the V6S lag behind all of the Boxster-S, Cayman-S and 991.2 Carrera;
- the old V8 is, depending on what weight you believe for the Jag (theirs or independent assessors!!!), either ahead of or about the same as the Carrera-S. Either way it's behind the boggo 991 Turbo.
- the F-Type R / SVR is (again depending on weight) a little ahead/behind the 991 Turbo, but well behind the Turbo-S and the GT3 / RS.
So in a straight line the much-lauded price advantage disappears in a puff of super unleaded...price comparisons below (before options, of course...
)V6 Jag ~ Cayman-S
V6-S between Cayman-S and 991 Carrera
Type-R ~ Carrera 4S
SVR cheaper than 991 Turbo
* and a LOT less practical, even ignoring the 911's rear seats...
I can't help but feel that the arguments for either car are completely lost on those who prefer the other.
Some people like to buy based on statistics or figures. Others just think "I like that".
Trying to compare your emotive preference for the F-Type is never going to make sense to someone trying to rationalise numbers against a Porsche, and equally prattling numbers about Porsches will consistently fail to ignite a desire to actually own one in someone who likes looking at, listening to and hooning around in an F-Type.
Some people like to buy based on statistics or figures. Others just think "I like that".
Trying to compare your emotive preference for the F-Type is never going to make sense to someone trying to rationalise numbers against a Porsche, and equally prattling numbers about Porsches will consistently fail to ignite a desire to actually own one in someone who likes looking at, listening to and hooning around in an F-Type.
blaza said:
Won't Jaguar sooner or later have to go down the smaller engine/turbo-charged route to satisfy the environmental regs? By which time Porsche will be (development) streets ahead.
Jaguar Land Rover are already well into development of s
tty little FI engines for their many other models, whereas Porsche make a more limited range of products besides their SUVs and are only just getting into these crap little engines now, so I'd suggest their engine know-how of making miserable little 4-banger turbos is about equal."I couldn't help pondering why Jaguar seems to have steadfastly avoided the temptation for direct confrontation, given it must have Porsche customers very much in its sights as potential F-Type buyers."
Because they know how it will turn out, perhaps?
I like the look of an F type but you'd have to be rich or daft to plough your own money into a new one. In 4 years however...
Because they know how it will turn out, perhaps?
I like the look of an F type but you'd have to be rich or daft to plough your own money into a new one. In 4 years however...
Who wants 'prestigious and mature' anyway?
Geez, how far down this track do you want to go? If you're saying that the Jag is the chav compared to the Porkers suit and tails, but its ok because its cheaper, then why stop there? Hell, there are plenty of even lower benchmarks to aim for, so as a race for the bottom, you've done Jag no favours.
A GTR will smoke both of these cars barring maybe the very highest spec 911 (also the very expensive versions), but you can always address that via Litchfield, and still have enough change left over for a Jag as a second car!
Geez, how far down this track do you want to go? If you're saying that the Jag is the chav compared to the Porkers suit and tails, but its ok because its cheaper, then why stop there? Hell, there are plenty of even lower benchmarks to aim for, so as a race for the bottom, you've done Jag no favours.
A GTR will smoke both of these cars barring maybe the very highest spec 911 (also the very expensive versions), but you can always address that via Litchfield, and still have enough change left over for a Jag as a second car!
RobDown said:
Dan - its all very well talking about the cost up front. But what's the depreciation like on a 911 and an F-Type? My guess is that you can spend less day 1 on the F-Type but lose more over time. So would be nice to see an article that talks about the real cost of ownership over say a 3 year period.
Depreciation is still totally related to the original cost price of these vehicles. They are still mass made cars and not unique individual production items, certainly not a sound investment.Following the premise of Dan's article here, If a moderately specified new Carrera S could be c£95,000 and a similarly specified F-Type around £65,000 and it's reasonable to expect around 30 per cent depreciation on both vehicles over the same time frame, you still have a greater loss on the more expensive car, the Porsche. Plus don't forget the VAT content on any vehicle is straight out your pocket and on the depreciation scale. On £95,000 thats currently £15,833.33 and on £65,000 its £10,833.33 to the exchequer!
We're also not talking about so called "investor Porches" either, there are lots of GT3 RS, of all variants up to the latest 991, GT4 Caymans etc, all languishing on dealer sites at exorbitant prices and NOT selling.
Hmm! Two issues with that piece. Firstly "prestige". How can you possibly describe the 911 as more prestigeous when every second estate agent has one? Porker might well have the engineering and the performance but it doesnt have the class.In no sense can a 911 or Coxter be described as "special" simply because they are ubiquitous.
Secondly if you want to compare, and I cannot see doing so as a sensible exercise, then do so on the basis of cost. After all, few of us dont have a budget when buying a car, so what matters to us is what you can get for that budget. Having said which every one of us will have different priorities and values so the comparison wont be valid for anyone but the author.
Secondly if you want to compare, and I cannot see doing so as a sensible exercise, then do so on the basis of cost. After all, few of us dont have a budget when buying a car, so what matters to us is what you can get for that budget. Having said which every one of us will have different priorities and values so the comparison wont be valid for anyone but the author.
jamieduff1981 said:
Trying to compare your emotive preference for the F-Type is never going to make sense to someone trying to rationalise numbers against a Porsche, and equally prattling numbers about Porsches will consistently fail to ignite a desire to actually own one in someone who likes looking at, listening to and hooning around in an F-Type.
jamieduff1981 said:
Jaguar Land Rover are already well into development of stty little FI engines for their many other models, whereas Porsche make a more limited range of products besides their SUVs and are only just getting into these crap little engines now, so I'd suggest their engine know-how of making miserable little 4-banger turbos is about equal.
Something tells me you prefer the Jag to a Porker... tty little FI engines for their many other models, whereas Porsche make a more limited range of products besides their SUVs and are only just getting into these crap little engines now, so I'd suggest their engine know-how of making miserable little 4-banger turbos is about equal.BTW - look at the achieved economy/emissions from the engines (both bench and real-world) - Porsche might just be a little way ahead of JLR...
...after all, not only have they been making turbocharged engines for, ooh, 40 years, but they're partnered with VAG, who have resources Jag can only dream of...
After 3 911s - 993, 996 GT3 and 997 C2s - the 991 left me a bit cold. Rather anodyne and optimised for speeds that are just unrealistic in the U.K. Took the plunge and moved to an F type V6 which was great and brought back some fun up to 70 mph. Tried a F type R and was sold. Exhilarating when you want it to be at UK speeds and an effortless cruiser when you need it to be that. My F Types have been much better put together than my 997 as well. So can't see myself going back to a Porsche any time soon. Suspect Porsche with the introduction of the GT4 and 911R are acknowledging that their core models were missing the mark for some buyers. Bought both F types as approved used cars with low mileage and reckon a £59k F type R is pretty fair value vs the alternatives. Not for everyone but suits me just fine.
redroadster said:
Does nobody think the looks matter the f type coupe looks stunning great interior ,it's a hard choice I'm a Porsche fan but for the money the jags price and looks would prob swing it as a daily driver .
I think for a daily I'd agree.Have a separate track car and enjoy the 6 or 8 cyl Jag on the road.
More discreet too, when cruising or stationary at least.
redroadster said:
Does nobody think the looks matter the f type coupe looks stunning great interior ,it's a hard choice I'm a Porsche fan but for the money the jags price and looks would prob swing it as a daily driver .
I agree. There's a LOT that's right about the F-type. At the end of the day I was swung to Porsche by a brilliant mid-engine chassis.The main things wrong with F-type are stupidly firm ride, stupidly noisy exhaust and (in the convertible) a stupidly small boot. F-type sales have been "disappointing". I'm sure it's because customers in the Jag demographic are put off by the points I mentioned. You don't need a concrete ride and a chav exhaust to sell a sportscar.
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