RE: Skids still for kids? PH Blog

RE: Skids still for kids? PH Blog

Thursday 1st December 2016

Skids still for kids? PH Blog

Is Dan ready to eat his words about drift modes being pointless?



Drift modes appear to be an emotive topic. I've gone on record pondering if they're pointless. Journalist John Cadogan is a little more ... Australian on the topic. You'll get the gist long before his video's 18-minute conclusion; I've made it to the end and reckon Full Metal Jacket's Gunnery Sergeant Hartman would be impressed at his sustained sweariness. Suffice it to say, you'll be wanting headphones if you're planning to watch at work or in front of the kids...

Headphones at the ready for this one!
Headphones at the ready for this one!
No swearing in my (thankfully rather shorter) vid from the E63 launch; just a bit of giggling and tyre squeal. So do I still think drift modes are pointless?

I'll stick by the central thrust of my argument that they are, essentially, novelty. But an interesting chat yesterday with a friendly chap from GKN Driveline (suppliers of the Twinster AWD system that lets the Focus RS do what it does) and dinner table small talk with AMG's development boss Oliver Wiech at least shed some light on how and why these things have come about.

I'll park Cadogan's point about manufacturer-endorsed 'douchebag modes' for now, while accepting they do raise some interesting ethical questions. Credit to AMG though; you're not going to select the E63's Drift Mode by accident and the fact it insists on leaving you totally exposed with no driver aids whatsoever should (hopefully) concentrate the attention of anyone intending to try it out. Morally - and potentially in insurance terms - you're on your own. The Focus is a little different, given you have to scroll 'past' Drift Mode any time you want to cycle through the settings, temptation made considerably more accessible than it is in the AMG.

This is how happy 612hp makes you
This is how happy 612hp makes you
Anyway. In the E63's case I think it's a more symbolic move. 90 per cent of the previous shape E63s sold were 4Matics, even in those markets where customers had the choice between that and the rear-driven set-up RHD markets got as standard. This rather suggests buyers of monster saloons buy into the IDEA of huge power and hairy-chested handling. But, when given the choice, readily opt for 'nannying' all-wheel drive. The new technology in the 4Matic+ system means AMG can vary the torque split from zero to 31:69. Adding a setting that fixes it 0:100 is technically very simple. And provides a cake and eat it solution. Look at it this way: if Porsche had been able to install a button that made a clutch pedal drop into the footwell and change the PDK shifter to an H-pattern manual in the 991 GT3 and RS it would have spared itself a lot of grief too; slightly more challenging technically but there is that facelift pending...

Modern performance cars are packed with ability and technology buyers demand but - in the vast majority of cases - will never use. Like 'ring lap records owners delight in reciting but will never achieve themselves or off-road modes in posh SUVs I'd file E63's Drift Mode in that category. And appreciate the privilege of being able to try it out at AMG's expense. Due journalistic diligence and all that. Without the self righteous rage, or apparent desire to see someone killed to prove my point.

Dan

E63 Drift Mode tested

John Cadogan calls out Focus RS's Drift Mode (very NSFW!)

 

Author
Discussion

anonymous-user

Original Poster:

53 months

Thursday 1st December 2016
quotequote all
I'm going to suggest there is a big difference in "drift modes" depending on the original powertrain architecture of the vehicle in question.

The AMG, is front longitudinal engined, sends all it's power backwards and then sends a bit forwards depending on conditions.

The RS, is front transverse engined, sends all it's power forwards, and then sends a bit backwards depending on conditions.

The AMG's mass distribution favors what is, in effect RWD, with a bit of a pull front the front to help out, the RS favors FWD with a bit of a push from the back to help out. As such "drift mode" in the RS is always a slave to it's (inferior) powertrain layout and hence although it makes the car go sideways when provoked, reduces overall lateral performance and always heavily loads the front tyres. The AMG however, starting with a balanced layout can overload just the rear tyres without overloading the fronts as well. This makes a big difference to the effectiveness of any "drift mode"



nickwilcock

1,522 posts

246 months

Thursday 1st December 2016
quotequote all
'Drifting' and other such stupidity is for Corsa-yoof-in-empty-car-park idiots.

Don't waste time bothering to report such nonsense!

Onehp

1,617 posts

282 months

Thursday 1st December 2016
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Way up north, drifting is legitimately the fastest way around (short) bends in winter and on gravel roads. However, neither of the mentioned cars would need a 'drift mode' for that. A manual hand brake on the other hand would be an effective tool... The one on my GT86 is great, most cars either have a very weak one, or none at all... An entirely different but related subject.

Yes drifting on dry tarmac is silly. And fun, as long as you're not paying wear and tear from your own average salary...

_Neal_

2,658 posts

218 months

Thursday 1st December 2016
quotequote all
Max_Torque said:
I'm going to suggest there is a big difference in "drift modes" depending on the original powertrain architecture of the vehicle in question.

The AMG, is front longitudinal engined, sends all it's power backwards and then sends a bit forwards depending on conditions.

The RS, is front transverse engined, sends all it's power forwards, and then sends a bit backwards depending on conditions.

The AMG's mass distribution favors what is, in effect RWD, with a bit of a pull front the front to help out, the RS favors FWD with a bit of a push from the back to help out. As such "drift mode" in the RS is always a slave to it's (inferior) powertrain layout and hence although it makes the car go sideways when provoked, reduces overall lateral performance and always heavily loads the front tyres. The AMG however, starting with a balanced layout can overload just the rear tyres without overloading the fronts as well. This makes a big difference to the effectiveness of any "drift mode"
Really good post. How I see it on the AMG is that its "drift mode" may as well be (and perhaps could more accurately be called) "Old School AMG Mode" - it's basically the same as being able to turn the traction/stability completely off on a RWD AMG model.

Also, any chance PH/others could stop referring to drifts/drifting as "skids/doing skids"? It doesn't sound good, and the only reason I can see for not just calling it "drifting" is the carpark/wrong'un stigma attached to drifting, despite pretty much all auto journos (and most keen drivers on here) appreciating the fun to be had from it.

It's cringeworthy. I may be the only one that feels this way though.




J68

3 posts

87 months

Thursday 1st December 2016
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If you want one that goes sideways why not just get one of the old ones which is rear drive anyway - makes things a bit more interesting getting to work in winter but at least its authentic...

J4CKO

41,287 posts

199 months

Thursday 1st December 2016
quotequote all
Nothing makes you sound more of an old fart than bemoaning drifting, like the young drifter will see a load of old blokes fawning over a paddock load of old Maserati's and the like at some classic racing event as a bit yawn.

I don't think anyone needs to choose, just enjoy your preference and if your car comes with a drift mode, you are free to ignore it, like as a non smoker I have never used cigar lighters, my last car stereo came with a demo mode turned on that made it light up like a 1950's Wurlitzer but I disabled it and its presence never troubled me.

Drift Mode is just software, a menu option, not sure why it generates such ire, is it considered cheating as we should all be able to hold a car in a long lurid drift by skill alone ? is it seen like leasing your dab of oppo ? biggrin





SuperchargedVR6

3,138 posts

219 months

Thursday 1st December 2016
quotequote all
_Neal_ said:
Also, any chance PH/others could stop referring to drifts/drifting as "skids/doing skids"? It doesn't sound good, and the only reason I can see for not just calling it "drifting" is the carpark/wrong'un stigma attached to drifting, despite pretty much all auto journos (and most keen drivers on here) appreciating the fun to be had from it.

It's cringeworthy. I may be the only one that feels this way though.
It certainly is, and you're not. I have no problem with 'drifting', 'tail sliding' or 'power over steer' as such, it's just the stupid Mighty Car Mods word 'skids' I hate.

Skids are found in underwear when you don't wipe your arse properly, or when the back wheel of your old BMX locked up on gravel. 90% of the MCM demographic couldn't pull of a proper 'skid' if their life depended on it, hence why you get clips on YouTube of that berk 'skidding' his RS into a cliff.

Still, people need to be seen to be down with the 'skids' these days huh?

Edited by SuperchargedVR6 on Thursday 1st December 14:47

Dan Trent

1,866 posts

167 months

Thursday 1st December 2016
quotequote all
I take on board aversion to the 's' word but it is temptingly alliterative and headline friendly (guilty as charged) and, I think, has a sense of informality appropriate to what we're discussing here. Getting too hung up on the words used to describe the activity, I'd venture, misses the point that it is at heart a bit of pointless fun.

Feel free to set up a video camera and spend 18 minutes swearing at me if it makes you feel better though! wink

Cheers,

Dan

SturdyHSV

10,083 posts

166 months

Thursday 1st December 2016
quotequote all
SuperchargedVR6 said:
_Neal_ said:
Also, any chance PH/others could stop referring to drifts/drifting as "skids/doing skids"? It doesn't sound good, and the only reason I can see for not just calling it "drifting" is the carpark/wrong'un stigma attached to drifting, despite pretty much all auto journos (and most keen drivers on here) appreciating the fun to be had from it.

It's cringeworthy. I may be the only one that feels this way though.
It certainly is, and you're not. I have no problem with 'drifting', 'tail sliding' or 'power over steer' as such, it's just the stupid Mighty Car Mods word 'skids' I hate.

Skids are found in underwear when you don't wipe your arse properly, or when the back wheel of your old BMX locked up on gravel. 90% of the MCM demographic couldn't pull of a proper 'skid' if their life depended on it, hence why you get clips on YouTube of that berk 'skidding' his RS into a cliff.

Still, people need to be seen to be down with the 'skids' these days huh?

Edited by SuperchargedVR6 on Thursday 1st December 14:47
'Skid' as it's being used I believe is an Australian thing in general, originating more from burnout competitions?

None of the terms particularly bother me, but if 'skids' grinds your gears, I'm surprised drifting doesn't, given that I think both skidding and drifting have come from specific 'disciplines' (I use that term as loosely as possible for the Australians hehe) and were then incorporated into common usage by 'the kids', whom we all hate beer

Skid:
fking about like an Australian, see:

https://youtu.be/CMkpizqclnY?t=15s

Drift:
fking about like someone from Japan, typically sideways well before the corner starts, see:

https://youtu.be/Z_IWEMtV7zo?t=6s

Sideways/oversteer/'dab of oppo':
fking about like everyone has done for years, covers everything else.

To me a tail slide is a skateboarding trick tongue out

And yes, to agree with Dan for once, in my mind the fact that 'skid' is of Australian origin gives it an appropriate level of 'fking about like a childish ape' that is far more relevant than 'drifting'


Edited by SturdyHSV on Thursday 1st December 15:28

SuperchargedVR6

3,138 posts

219 months

Thursday 1st December 2016
quotequote all
Dan Trent said:
I take on board aversion to the 's' word but it is temptingly alliterative and headline friendly (guilty as charged) and, I think, has a sense of informality appropriate to what we're discussing here. Getting too hung up on the words used to describe the activity, I'd venture, misses the point that it is at heart a bit of pointless fun.

Feel free to set up a video camera and spend 18 minutes swearing at me if it makes you feel better though! wink

Cheers,

Dan
I hear ya, but with drifting, I think Ken Block. With skidding, I think...


SuperchargedVR6

3,138 posts

219 months

Thursday 1st December 2016
quotequote all
SturdyHSV said:
Skid:
fking about like an Australian, see:

https://youtu.be/CMkpizqclnY?t=15s
I would call that a burnout, but thankee for the lesson in all things skiddery smile

anonymous-user

Original Poster:

53 months

Thursday 1st December 2016
quotequote all
BRW, it's worth noting, that it would be totally possible to install a "drift mode" in a purely FWD car using a modern electronically controlled rear wheel steer mechanism! That mode could even include different levels of yaw, between "Beginner", where it only needs a dab of oppo to catch, through "Expert" and onto "Hero" where you need the full handwheel angle to keep your car going in the right direction!

If you're reading this RenaultSport, then it's my idea, i thought of it first!! ;-)

SturdyHSV

10,083 posts

166 months

Thursday 1st December 2016
quotequote all
SuperchargedVR6 said:
SturdyHSV said:
Skid:
fking about like an Australian, see:

https://youtu.be/CMkpizqclnY?t=15s
I would call that a burnout, but thankee for the lesson in all things skiddery smile
I think when you start twiddling the wheel, that's when it falls in to skid territory (although it is still a burnout). There are various (entertaining) videos of Aussie vs American burnouts that make this distinction smile

You'll no doubt be very interested to hear of the 'powerskid' too.

This involves lining up on a straight piece of track (ideally), nailing the throttle, and blowing the tyres off for as long as possible, no brakes allowed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FO6Fe7vdz8U

AER

1,142 posts

269 months

Friday 2nd December 2016
quotequote all
_Neal_ said:
Also, any chance PH/others could stop referring to drifts/drifting as "skids/doing skids"? It doesn't sound good
...
It's cringeworthy. I may be the only one that feels this way though.
I think it sounds great. The use of the slightly childish terminology emphasizes the immature nature of the activity. I'm sure there's a whole sociology PhD that could be written about it. Just not by me.

Onehp

1,617 posts

282 months

Friday 2nd December 2016
quotequote all
_Neal_ said:
How I see it on the AMG is that its "drift mode" may as well be (and perhaps could more accurately be called) "Old School AMG Mode" - it's basically the same as being able to turn the traction/stability completely off on a RWD AMG model.
Good point. Much talk abouy 'skidding', but with the AMG, the thing that was effectively *added* was the 'non-skidding' default mode with the now standard awd... And as pointed out here, selecting the 'old style' driving mode won't happen by mistake, so again more 'non-unintentional-skidding' functionality *added*.

So in effect, we should be talking about how AMG did the very opposite of what we're discussing and added the boredom of grip, making the car more mature and accessible* without killing joy completely... Imagine the uproar if they had killed rwd altogether!


  • now a complete noob will be able to keep this car under control untill it goes waaay too fast... Is that good? Or will the anti collision systems reign it in on time?

_Neal_

2,658 posts

218 months

Friday 2nd December 2016
quotequote all
Dan Trent said:
I take on board aversion to the 's' word but it is temptingly alliterative and headline friendly (guilty as charged) and, I think, has a sense of informality appropriate to what we're discussing here. Getting too hung up on the words used to describe the activity, I'd venture, misses the point that it is at heart a bit of pointless fun.

Feel free to set up a video camera and spend 18 minutes swearing at me if it makes you feel better though! wink

Cheers,

Dan
Agreed - don't get me wrong, I'm not hung up on the words used to describe it. Well, I am, but I'm also glad drift/skid/messing about modes exist, and as you say, whatever you call it, it's fun (And pointless) - manufacturers know it's pointless too, but fun sells cars, as least sometimes!

My irritation with it, apart from it sounding rubbish (I have a similar reaction when I walk past a branch of "Scoff & Banter", but that's my issue) stems from the perception I have that because drifting has negative connotations amongst the more mainstream driving fraternity, a word that doesn't really have a normal useful meaning (at least in the UK) gets used instead, and the "d word" is pretty much never used, even when it's more appropriate. And that's notwithstanding the fact that the same car enthusiasts who are so negative about the drift scene are extremely keen to watch journos drifting expensive machinery. I'm no drift scene fanboy either, but the overall feel of the approach just doesn't sit right with me.

Now, where's that video camera? I'm sure I've got other petty linguistic points I could rant for 18 minutes about biggrin

Alex_225

6,234 posts

200 months

Friday 2nd December 2016
quotequote all
I'd say the first post explained it for me. E Class is fundamentally a RWD car, most cars with that set up and reasonable power will have a natural want to drift, power slide or whatever you want to call it. As said the power goes to the back and a bit is pushed forward, switch that off and you've got a lot of power to just the rear wheels and it will drift.

The RS is the opposite and in turn it just comes across as if it's trying to hard. It has plenty of other merits above a drift mode!

Essentially though, this particular button doesn't really appeal to me very much as I prefer fast cornering rather than sideways cornering so each to their own.

SuperchargedVR6

3,138 posts

219 months

Friday 2nd December 2016
quotequote all
SturdyHSV said:
SuperchargedVR6 said:
SturdyHSV said:
Skid:
fking about like an Australian, see:

https://youtu.be/CMkpizqclnY?t=15s
I would call that a burnout, but thankee for the lesson in all things skiddery smile
I think when you start twiddling the wheel, that's when it falls in to skid territory (although it is still a burnout). There are various (entertaining) videos of Aussie vs American burnouts that make this distinction smile

You'll no doubt be very interested to hear of the 'powerskid' too.

This involves lining up on a straight piece of track (ideally), nailing the throttle, and blowing the tyres off for as long as possible, no brakes allowed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FO6Fe7vdz8U
Lol, a nice bit of Nitrous purging there at the start!

Is that in Australia? I can't imagine an American keeping it on the track. They struggle to keep standard Mustangs and Corvettes on the road, let alone something a good deal more powerful biglaugh

I believe the South Africans do some kind of car waltz thing where they get the car into a donut and then leap out of it, and then jump back in! Madness!

s m

23,164 posts

202 months

Friday 2nd December 2016
quotequote all
Looks like this chap has to pay for his own tyres



Wise kid !

ambuletz

10,690 posts

180 months

Friday 2nd December 2016
quotequote all
My issue with drift modes is because it never was around before. It implies that you have no skill and you need to 'turn on' a mode in order for you to achieve it. It's like turning on aim assist in a first-person-shooter video game, before you would simply just turn off all driver aids. It's also trying too hard too, if you have to explain or put a label on something it's not cool. Like wearing a pair of ray-bans that have the logo all over it. Not cool.

I've no issue at all with drifting, but making drifting modes is making it look uncool. It's like acknowledging you're a hipster in a time of peak hipster-ness.