Time to move to a new home!
Discussion
Bibs, an Esprit owner from London created a great new forum several months ago and it is has really starting to take off lately.
The new forum called simply "Lotus Esprit Forum" or LEF was created because the PistonHeads and Yahoo lists are getting a bit out of control with animated gif banner ads all over the place. The LEF has a nice clean layout, great topic organization, better features (including avatars), and improved search capabilities.
Already there are over 360 active Lotus members signed up and the list continues to grow. I encourage you to join and give it a look. Once you do, I think you will realize it is a better, commercial-free alternative to the PistonHeads forum you are on now.
If you want to go check it out, you can do so through my portal. Go to www.espritfactfile.com and click on Forum on the top menu.
Cheers,
Karl-Franz :)
The new forum called simply "Lotus Esprit Forum" or LEF was created because the PistonHeads and Yahoo lists are getting a bit out of control with animated gif banner ads all over the place. The LEF has a nice clean layout, great topic organization, better features (including avatars), and improved search capabilities.
Already there are over 360 active Lotus members signed up and the list continues to grow. I encourage you to join and give it a look. Once you do, I think you will realize it is a better, commercial-free alternative to the PistonHeads forum you are on now.
If you want to go check it out, you can do so through my portal. Go to www.espritfactfile.com and click on Forum on the top menu.
Cheers,
Karl-Franz :)
Yep,
Until he too succumbs to the lure of Advertising £££s! It'll happen, just as it did with the other forums, mark my words.
I for one am not interested in swelling his ranks so he can sell the representative audience to the very people who are crowding the existing forums with banners and Ads. You are merely perpetuating a viscious circle. Now if Bibs were willing to cut me in on a piece of the action, different story
.
Just use your software to block the popups and Ads, I do. There are too many forums already!
Happy Motoring! ...Jim'00 Boxster (former owner '85 TE)
>> Edited by lotusguy on Saturday 4th June 17:52
Until he too succumbs to the lure of Advertising £££s! It'll happen, just as it did with the other forums, mark my words.
I for one am not interested in swelling his ranks so he can sell the representative audience to the very people who are crowding the existing forums with banners and Ads. You are merely perpetuating a viscious circle. Now if Bibs were willing to cut me in on a piece of the action, different story
. Just use your software to block the popups and Ads, I do. There are too many forums already!
Happy Motoring! ...Jim'00 Boxster (former owner '85 TE)
>> Edited by lotusguy on Saturday 4th June 17:52
lotusguy said:
Yep,
Until he too succumbs to the lure of Advertising £££s! It'll happen, just as it did with the other forums, mark my words.
I for one am not interested in swelling his ranks so he can sell the representative audience to the very people who are crowding the existing forums with banners and Ads. You are merely perpetuating a viscious circle. Now if Bibs were willing to cut me in on a piece of the action, different story
Just use your software to block the popups and Ads, I do. There are too many forums already!
Happy Motoring! ...Jim'00 Boxster (former owner '85 TE)
>> Edited by lotusguy on Saturday 4th June 17:52
Jim,
So much cynicism! I have had my Esprit Fact File for almost 10 years (almost since the birth of the web itself) and I have yet to succumbs to the lure of Advertising $$$. For the record, my site gets between 1,600 and 2,000 visitors per week.
Growth and change are inevitable. You have been around long enough to know that we have moved several times already; from the original Lotus list, to the Onelist, to Yahoo, etc...
BTW: Your popup blocker will do nothing for all the dozens of animated gif banner ads that are embedded into the PistonHeads pages even within the individual messages!
I think it's time for a move. I know it's a bold statement, but I'm not suggesting this as yet another forum; but rather as a complete replacement of the PistonHeads one.
The great technical expertise you always provide would be a welcome addition at the new home.
BARRACUDA340S said:
I tried your link and it takes me to some flash media player deal? how about a different link?
That is how you get to it. You go to the Esprit Fact File and choose whether you want the Flash or Non-Flash version of the site and then once you're in you click on Forum on the top menu.
I could not agree with Karl more, but I think the conversation on LEF is still a tad juvenile -- primarily in the General Chat area. I can go weeks with out looking and then want to read maybe one topic. Where as on Yahoo everyday something interesting comes across.
I guess it's a catch 22. What really needs to happen is the owner of the Yahoo! list needs to SHUT IT DOWN. Not enough of the knowledgebase seems to be willing to be an early adopter.
Lucas.
I guess it's a catch 22. What really needs to happen is the owner of the Yahoo! list needs to SHUT IT DOWN. Not enough of the knowledgebase seems to be willing to be an early adopter.
Lucas.
karmavore said:
I guess it's a catch 22. What really needs to happen is the owner of the Yahoo! list needs to SHUT IT DOWN. Not enough of the knowledgebase seems to be willing to be an early adopter.
Hi Luke,
It would be a great start if we all agreed to leave Yahoo and move to LEF. Even I don't think I would leave Yahoo's TurboEsprit list at this point (as much as I dislike their setup and annoying ads) because I like the convenience of getting emails. Of course the huge problem with Yahoo is that it's almost impossible to search old topics for information. That means that people keep asking the same questions over and over because they can't find where it was discussed before. People must getting tired of answering the same questions to every noob that signs on.
My choice would be 2 forums. Yahoo for emails, LEF for web based. Although ideally it would be great if LEF could be upgraded to do emails as well, but I don't know if Bibs' software has that capability. I'll ask him.
>> Edited by karlfranz on Monday 6th June 16:08
Personally the ads dont bother me at all. Piston heads costs money to run so they either charge at the door or put up ads, anyone whio does not at the momentt, will do eventually unless they have deep pockets.
It is this "the internet is free" misunderstanding that smacks of selfishness to me, that was 95 man - this is now, get over it.
My 2 cents!
It is this "the internet is free" misunderstanding that smacks of selfishness to me, that was 95 man - this is now, get over it.
My 2 cents!
karlfranz said:
I guess it's a catch 22. What really needs to happen is the owner of the Yahoo! list needs to SHUT IT DOWN. Not enough of the knowledgebase seems to be willing to be an early adopter.
Hi Luke,
It would be a great start if we all agreed to leave PistonHeads and move to LEF. Even I don't think I would leave Yahoo's TurboEsprit list at this point (as much as I dislike their setup and annoying ads) because I like the convenience of getting emails. Of course the huge problem with Yahoo is that it's almost impossible to search old topics for information. That means that people keep asking the same questions over and over because they can't find where it was discussed before. People must getting tired of answering the same questions to every noob that signs on.
My choice would be 2 forums. Yahoo for emails, LEF for web based. Although ideally it would be great if LEF could be upgraded to do emails as well, but I don't know if Bibs' software has that capability. I'll ask him.
Well the early days of this forum was not too great with days gone by before posts. Even when it picked up the fourm was dominated by a few till more people showed up. It is sort of a snowball effect as more people post the relevance of the topics will get better. I still read the turbo list but I along with many of the old timers are not really active posters. The newer ones are doing fine asnwering the same questions that were posed to us many many times before.
Karl, I'll give the new site a shot and see how it goes. You have not steered me in the wrong direction yet.
Calvin
People use forums for different reasons.
IMHO, the more the merrier.
I prefer PistonHeads because of all of the topics (and the fact that I have been fortunate enough to meet some of the nice folk IRL).
It's great to have the Esprit section on the PistonHeads forums, but there is also "the Pie and Piston" which is akin to a pub. General Gassing covers many automotive related subjects. There are sections for computer help, photography, regional sections (including a USA section). Basically it's a "community" and where I choose to spend my virtual free time.
The advertisement banners also don't bother me. As a matter of fact, I don't even notice them. At least they are not as intrusive as other sites (relegated to the header, footer and the odd one off to the right side).
Karl, I like the approach that you took on your new site. It allows everyone to choose different forums as they see fit. Some may choose forums for strictly tech support or research. Others may be looking for the more social aspect. Either way, choice is always good.
I think that advocating one forum over another as the place to post Esprit related content is not a good idea. What if that forum dies or is neglected? (dying is a possibility unless there is some sort of advertising). Variety and choice are good.
Just my 0.02 (pennies or pence)
ErnestM
>> Edited by ErnestM on Sunday 5th June 15:50
IMHO, the more the merrier.
I prefer PistonHeads because of all of the topics (and the fact that I have been fortunate enough to meet some of the nice folk IRL).
It's great to have the Esprit section on the PistonHeads forums, but there is also "the Pie and Piston" which is akin to a pub. General Gassing covers many automotive related subjects. There are sections for computer help, photography, regional sections (including a USA section). Basically it's a "community" and where I choose to spend my virtual free time.
The advertisement banners also don't bother me. As a matter of fact, I don't even notice them. At least they are not as intrusive as other sites (relegated to the header, footer and the odd one off to the right side).
Karl, I like the approach that you took on your new site. It allows everyone to choose different forums as they see fit. Some may choose forums for strictly tech support or research. Others may be looking for the more social aspect. Either way, choice is always good.
I think that advocating one forum over another as the place to post Esprit related content is not a good idea. What if that forum dies or is neglected? (dying is a possibility unless there is some sort of advertising). Variety and choice are good.
Just my 0.02 (pennies or pence)
ErnestM
>> Edited by ErnestM on Sunday 5th June 15:50
karlfranz said:
Of course the huge problem with Yahoo is that it's almost impossible to search old topics for information. That means that people keep asking the same questions over and over because they can't find where it was discussed before. People must getting tired of answering the same questions to every noob that signs on.
Try:
http://lotus.roadfly.com/turboesprit/search.php
EM: The ads that P me off are the ones that block the screen and won't let you see the page. Occasionally PH gets those. The banners and side things don't bother me.
Dr.Hess
Everybody has very good points pro or con. Like Ernie said, choice is good.
My point is that guess if people just give the new forum a chance, they might see that they like it better. It does everything that the PH forum does and much more ...and it does it without adverts. If you were given a choice to watch a movie on a channel where it is time-compressed, edited for content, and interrupted every 12 minutes for a 3-5 minute commercial break and a channel where the movies are played uncut and uninterrupted for free, why would you choose the former?
The only thing the new forum is missing is you and your discussion topics. Calvin is right, a few years back this forum (PH) was a little thin on real content too. As he wisely points out, there is a snowball effect. I believe it takes a bit of a push to get past the inertia needed to get the ball rolling and that is what I'm trying to do and I'm asking for your help. Until we pass a certain, unknown threshold, people might be hesitant to post tech questions over there because the feel they will get ignored. However, if we get people like Jim McFadden, or Tim Engel participating, I guarantee you others will go their in droves to get their great advice and insight.
Regarding Jim's concerns about succumbing to advertising, Bibs reassured me by telling me that he has another forum that he runs (www.glcforum.com) that has over 5,000 members and 2 million hits per month and he still hasn't gone down the advertising route.
About the ability to send use email like Yaho, he said this:
"We can have emails out, just not in. There are a number of options for topic subscription, including an email per new post, a daily digest of the whole forum, each individual room, or a particular thread, and a weekly version of the same."
As far as the search capability:
"My other site has over 90,000 posts, which to me in storage is 19mb thanks to this software's excellent compression in MySQL, which means that I'll never need to remove any posts, and the search engine on here is very good"
Regarding Mark's comment:
"It is this "the internet is free" misunderstanding that smacks of selfishness to me, that was 95 man - this is now, get over it."
The Internet may not be "entirely" free, but there are still sites that you can go to that are. As I said before, my web site has been there almost since the beginning of the web itself (1996) and I have yet to put a banner ad. Does this mean I should "get out of 1995" and start charging or putting banner ads like everyone else? Would that make me less selfish or more?
So all I say is give it a chance. I can't force anyone to move over. I still provide access to all the other forums through the Esprit Fact File, including this one, but LEF is now my main forum.
My point is that guess if people just give the new forum a chance, they might see that they like it better. It does everything that the PH forum does and much more ...and it does it without adverts. If you were given a choice to watch a movie on a channel where it is time-compressed, edited for content, and interrupted every 12 minutes for a 3-5 minute commercial break and a channel where the movies are played uncut and uninterrupted for free, why would you choose the former?
The only thing the new forum is missing is you and your discussion topics. Calvin is right, a few years back this forum (PH) was a little thin on real content too. As he wisely points out, there is a snowball effect. I believe it takes a bit of a push to get past the inertia needed to get the ball rolling and that is what I'm trying to do and I'm asking for your help. Until we pass a certain, unknown threshold, people might be hesitant to post tech questions over there because the feel they will get ignored. However, if we get people like Jim McFadden, or Tim Engel participating, I guarantee you others will go their in droves to get their great advice and insight.
Regarding Jim's concerns about succumbing to advertising, Bibs reassured me by telling me that he has another forum that he runs (www.glcforum.com) that has over 5,000 members and 2 million hits per month and he still hasn't gone down the advertising route.
About the ability to send use email like Yaho, he said this:
"We can have emails out, just not in. There are a number of options for topic subscription, including an email per new post, a daily digest of the whole forum, each individual room, or a particular thread, and a weekly version of the same."
As far as the search capability:
"My other site has over 90,000 posts, which to me in storage is 19mb thanks to this software's excellent compression in MySQL, which means that I'll never need to remove any posts, and the search engine on here is very good"
Regarding Mark's comment:
"It is this "the internet is free" misunderstanding that smacks of selfishness to me, that was 95 man - this is now, get over it."
The Internet may not be "entirely" free, but there are still sites that you can go to that are. As I said before, my web site has been there almost since the beginning of the web itself (1996) and I have yet to put a banner ad. Does this mean I should "get out of 1995" and start charging or putting banner ads like everyone else? Would that make me less selfish or more?
So all I say is give it a chance. I can't force anyone to move over. I still provide access to all the other forums through the Esprit Fact File, including this one, but LEF is now my main forum.
Karl, whilst I understand your reasoning do you not think it a little discourteous to use this forum to suggest everyone leave here and go somewhere else?
Having provided the forum for EFF for some years I hoped perhaps you'd have discussed it with me to see if I could do something to address your concerns rather than just remove the link and not tell me.
A bit rude IMO. I'd rather work with you to address your needs (new forums around the corner with more features) than just be dumped uncermoniously and without notice via a note on the very forum that you don't want to use.
Having provided the forum for EFF for some years I hoped perhaps you'd have discussed it with me to see if I could do something to address your concerns rather than just remove the link and not tell me.
A bit rude IMO. I'd rather work with you to address your needs (new forums around the corner with more features) than just be dumped uncermoniously and without notice via a note on the very forum that you don't want to use.
PetrolTed said:
Karl, whilst I understand your reasoning do you not think it a little discourteous to use this forum to suggest everyone leave here and go somewhere else?
Having provided the forum for EFF for some years I hoped perhaps you'd have discussed it with me to see if I could do something to address your concerns rather than just remove the link and not tell me.
A bit rude IMO. I'd rather work with you to address your needs (new forums around the corner with more features) than just be dumped uncermoniously and without notice
Ted,
I do agree with you however, I did send you two emails with these concerns that went unreplied.
Unlike what you may have heard, I didn't remove your link. In fact, all the links to PistonHeads pages are still there. It's just that the Forum button now takes you to LEF by default. Just one extra mouse click takes you to the PistonHeads forum - so I'm sure I'm still redirecting a lot of traffic to you and your members.
I appreciate your service and speak highly of your site for classifieds and price guides which I'm sure people find beneficial. What did it for me was when flyover ads started appearing on my screen that would not let me read the forum until I clicked them away.
While it is great that you're generating revenue from the banner ads, do you find that people really go to the advertised sites or use their products/services? My experience has been that this is not really the case. Most people here have even said they ignore the ads.
That is why I went with the "Sponsor" approach instead. It's sort of a barter system, I mention them in my text and encourage people to use them in exchange for getting better deals if I need to buy from them myself. The only place you will find something resembling a banner is if you click on the sponsors link. But you have to willingly click there, I won't show the banners anywhere else so you're not subjected to them if you choose not to see them. Of course from a vendor standpoint, this limits their audience, but I'm not in it to make money or pay the bills. I respect that others may not have that advantage or benefit.
No disrespect was meant by my plea to have members join the other forum and I will not be offended if you delete this thread because you find it objectionable. However, I'm with Ernie - more choices is always better. Let the people decide. Who knows, they may wind up using both.
Cheers.
Fair enough. Neither email showed up so we've obviously had a disconnect somewhere. Sorry for jumping to conclusions.
I'll have a think about your comments. I can wind down some of the advertising in certain places. I'll have a think.
I am aware that people want more features in forums now. We've got a major upgrade in the wings which will go some way to addressing a lot of their needs.
Feedback is welcome as I'm aware that the internet isn't a place to accept status quo.
Don't desert us completely - we've got a few things up our sleeve which I think you'll appreciate and that will set us apart.
I'll have a think about your comments. I can wind down some of the advertising in certain places. I'll have a think.
I am aware that people want more features in forums now. We've got a major upgrade in the wings which will go some way to addressing a lot of their needs.
Feedback is welcome as I'm aware that the internet isn't a place to accept status quo.
Don't desert us completely - we've got a few things up our sleeve which I think you'll appreciate and that will set us apart.
karlfranz said:
Regarding Mark's comment:
"It is this "the internet is free" misunderstanding that smacks of selfishness to me, that was 95 man - this is now, get over it."
The Internet may not be "entirely" free, but there are still sites that you can go to that are. As I said before, my web site has been there almost since the beginning of the web itself (1996) and I have yet to put a banner ad. Does this mean I should "get out of 1995" and start charging or putting banner ads like everyone else? Would that make me less selfish or more?
So all I say is give it a chance. I can't force anyone to move over. I still provide access to all the other forums through the Esprit Fact File, including this one, but LEF is now my main forum.
Was not meant personally to you there buddy, just your approach seemed to be saying my site is better becasue it has no ads.
I think it was the directness of the post that may have got the back up of a few but to be frank I am not really bothered - just good forum banter.
markuskj said:
Was not meant personally to you there buddy, just your approach seemed to be saying my site is better because it has no ads.
I think it was the directness of the post that may have got the back up of a few but to be frank I am not really bothered - just good forum banter.
You know, I have to say that one of the things I like about this and all the other Esprit forums is how we all seem to get along so well. I don't know how many of you participate in other types of forums but they always seem to be populated by childish little teenagers who have nothing better to do than sit there and call each other names and cuss about everything. For some reason we always manage to be inmune to this. The few who have tried through the years soon leave. Maybe our topics are so boring to non-owners/enthusiasts that we run them off before they get started.
Either way, no offense was taken by your comment, Mark. I agree - "good forum banter."
Now let's hold hands and sing Kumbaya
A couple thoughts. I use Firefox and it has the ability to remove, permanently or temporarily, any content on a website, ads, pictures etc. This is especially useful with the large flashing ads that are very annoying. I understand that there needs to be some type of sponsorship. I prefer the type Karl uses but I understand that isn't always the case.
My biggest "issue" with this "issue" is this....We need better access to the knowledge contained in the Esprit community. The Yahoo list is terrible. Even with the Roadfly search tool, it is terrible. You can't follow along any topic in a convenient and logical manner. As stated earlier, the same things get hashed and rehashed. I would much rather see everyone use one forum that has some file, archive, message board and procedure article “knowledge base” ability. Something that LEW, EFF, the Yahoo list and Piston Heads all contribute a part of. I really wish the Yahoo group would shut down too. That would be the biggest step to getting more knowledge/participation in a better environment. I especially like the Wiki approach as it takes the burden off of one person to keep updated. A few people assigned as moderators could update inaccurate info to keep it correct. Another concern is the possibility of any of these to disappear overnight. I for one wouldn't mind paying a reasonable subscription fee for having a long term lease on a domain and server space. If it was “owned by us” in this way, we would have a right to have a full copy of the data as a backup, should we need to move it to another location/server.
So in a nutshell I would like to see a Wiki page with links to a (one) message board. The Wiki page would also have a non editable section for info like that contained on LEW and EFF.
I understand the reluctance of people to leave their “comfort zone” of give up a site they have spent $ and time on. But for the better of the community and the continuation of knowledge, I think this is best.
John
94 S4
www.skynetworks.gotdns.com
My biggest "issue" with this "issue" is this....We need better access to the knowledge contained in the Esprit community. The Yahoo list is terrible. Even with the Roadfly search tool, it is terrible. You can't follow along any topic in a convenient and logical manner. As stated earlier, the same things get hashed and rehashed. I would much rather see everyone use one forum that has some file, archive, message board and procedure article “knowledge base” ability. Something that LEW, EFF, the Yahoo list and Piston Heads all contribute a part of. I really wish the Yahoo group would shut down too. That would be the biggest step to getting more knowledge/participation in a better environment. I especially like the Wiki approach as it takes the burden off of one person to keep updated. A few people assigned as moderators could update inaccurate info to keep it correct. Another concern is the possibility of any of these to disappear overnight. I for one wouldn't mind paying a reasonable subscription fee for having a long term lease on a domain and server space. If it was “owned by us” in this way, we would have a right to have a full copy of the data as a backup, should we need to move it to another location/server.
So in a nutshell I would like to see a Wiki page with links to a (one) message board. The Wiki page would also have a non editable section for info like that contained on LEW and EFF.
I understand the reluctance of people to leave their “comfort zone” of give up a site they have spent $ and time on. But for the better of the community and the continuation of knowledge, I think this is best.
John
94 S4
www.skynetworks.gotdns.com
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