Response from Hylomar

[PetrolTed]

[quote=hylomar]
Dear sir or madam

We are concerned to read the comments regarding Hylomar 3400 used to seal cylinder liners on Lotus Esprit V8 engines on the Forum section of your website.

Hylomar Limited are the manufacturers of Hylomar 3400 anaerobic gasket compound and no one (including Paula & Marcus) has bothered to contact us to ask whether Hylomar 3400 is resistant to glycol. We also have to question how any other manufacturer of sealants could, without bias, make any comment on the performance of our products.

For the information of all of your members Hylomar Gasket 3400 has been used to seal the cylinder liners on Lotus Esprit V8 engines since early 2000 and this is the first adverse comment that either Lotus or ourselves are aware of.

As one would expect extensive testing was done by Lotus before changing from Loctite 572 to Hylomar 3400 and the results showed that the Hylomar product gave significantly improved sealing. Hylomar have also done testing of Hylomar 3400 against anti-freeze and whilst there is some reduction in adhesion after 1000 hours immersion in antifreeze at 90oC the product does not “disappear” as stated by Paula & Marcus.

We should perhaps take the time to explain how the product works as this may give some indication of why Paula & Marcus think the product has disappeared. Hylomar 3400 is an anaerobic gasket compound that fills in any imperfections on the matting surfaces of a metal to metal joint and allows metal to metal contact. No machined surface is perfect, they all have machining marks and Hylomar 3400 simply fills these marks. Therefore the amount of product actually in the joint is very small and it is quite possible that anyone quickly looking at a separated joint might think that there was no sealant there at all.

By their very nature anaerobic gasket materials just like thread lockers will only cure between 2 metal surfaces in the absence of oxygen. Please see the Hylomar Technical Bulletin “Guidelines for using anaerobic gasketing products” for further information.

We also have to ask whether any work has been done on the cylinder liners in the particular V8 engine in question since it was originally built and if so whether the correct product was used to seal the liners when the engine was put back together? If the engine has been rebuilt and the correct product used was the product allowed to cure before the coolant system was refilled?

A more likely culprit for causing corrosion and abrasion of the metal parts is not the Glycol but the water used. High alkali chalky water can cause galvanic corrosion and the chalk can act like grinding paste, hence the radiator core change mentioned also.

Unless large quantities of water were found in the crank case below the liner seal, this comment should be taken as a “Red Herring” and other possible causes of the water loss and overheating investigated.

In the meantime if anyone wants information about Hylomar’s excellent range of high performance products please go to our website (www.hylomar.com). We are a very helpful and friendly bunch so if you have specific questions please e-mail us at [e-mail] or come and visit us at the SCCA June Sprints 24, 25 & 26 June Road America


Bill Griffiths
Director of Sales & Marketing

Warrick Dawson
Marketing & Distributor Manager
[/quote]

[toyroom]

Well that was good of them. It's nice to see a company taking such interest in the musings of the Forum's membership. I find the comments on the water used very interesting. I have always used ANIONIC WATER to fill the car's cooling system. This costs a few pounds only for five litres at a time and it has never ceased to amaze me that people buy a fifty grand supercar, source the recommended coolants and oils and then fill the engine with bog standard tap water !!! You can get anionic (distilled) water at any chemist. Or if you are a total cheapskate, collect the water next time you defrost your freezer. This is probably a false economy as it takes ages and risks contaminating the engine with food debris. I'd recommend the bottled stuff myself !

[GKP]

<pedant mode> It's limescale in the water not chalk. <pedant mode off>

[Cross-eyed-twit]

I think half the problem is company's don't normally read forums like this and if they do they don't comment on what is said.

Credit to the chaps at Hylomar.

[lotusse89]

toyroom said:

Well that was good of them. It's nice to see a company taking such interest in the musings of the Forum's membership. I find the comments on the water used very interesting. I have always used ANIONIC WATER to fill the car's cooling system. This costs a few pounds only for five litres at a time and it has never ceased to amaze me that people buy a fifty grand supercar, source the recommended coolants and oils and then fill the engine with bog standard tap water !!! You can get anionic (distilled) water at any chemist. Or if you are a total cheapskate, collect the water next time you defrost your freezer. This is probably a false economy as it takes ages and risks contaminating the engine with food debris. I'd recommend the bottled stuff myself !

Deionized water (anionic) is not distilled! Deionized water is very bad to use in a cooling system, because it is hungry for ions that it can rip out of the base metals. it actually greatly accelerates corrosion!!!!

Use distilled water, it has no impurities, that's what you want!

Travis
Vulcan Grey 89SE
www.lotuscolorado.com/vulcangrey/

[Dr.Hess]

Actually, Sam's Choice Purified Drinking Water, available at Wal*Mart stores everywhere, is purified by reverse osmosis and is equivalent to distilled water. There are some minerals added, but we are talking literally a couple parts per million so that it tastes like something besides the inside of your mouth. I use it when I need to just top off a bit. Otherwise I buy the cheapest "distilled" (really reverse osmosis) water at the grocery store at about $0.88/gallon. For the benefit of you UKers, that would be GBP 0.127/litre.


Dr.Hess

[rob.e]

Cross-eyed-twit said:

I think half the problem is company's don't normally read forums like this and if they do they don't comment on what is said. Credit to the chaps at Hylomar.

Ditto.

[Paula&Marcus]

Hi All,
Many thanks for all the comments and also many thanks to the Hylomar guys.

First I want to apologize for all the confusion I have initiated here ...

With the help of some people here we could shed some light on this Hylomar-problem.
The reason why the Hylomar sealant disappeared was simply the fact that it was NOT the "Hylomar 3400" that was used. Actually it was a Hylomar product (recommended and purchased from our Lotus-dealer with item #A918E6069) but unfortunately not the correct one for this application.

The Lotus dealer simply sold us the wrong Hylomar product .... (
I personally did not have any doubts, because it came with a Lotus #A918... item number that states that it is a V8 number.

If you ever happen to apply a sealant to the V8 liners please only use "Hylomar 3400" and not this one:




Does anybody know what application this #A918E6069 is meant to be used for ???


Sorry for the inconviniences
Marcus

[kmaier]

Paula&Marcus said:

Hi All, Many thanks for all the comments and also many thanks to the Hylomar guys. First I want to apologize for all the confusion I have initiated here ... With the help of some people here we could shed some light on this Hylomar-problem. The reason why the Hylomar sealant disappeared was simply the fact that it was NOT the "Hylomar 3400" that was used. Actually it was a Hylomar product (recommended and purchased from our Lotus-dealer with item #A918E6069) but unfortunately not the correct one for this application. The Lotus dealer simply sold us the wrong Hylomar product .... ( I personally did not have any doubts, because it came with a Lotus #A918... item number that states that it is a V8 number. If you ever happen to apply a sealant to the V8 liners please only use "Hylomar 3400" and not this one: Does anybody know what application this #A918E6069 is meant to be used for ??? Sorry for the inconviniences Marcus

Hello Marcus,

Yes you defintely got the wrong stuff. According to my Service Notes, the correct Lotus p/n for Hylomar 3400 is A918E0377V.

Regards, KM
2000 V8

[scoule]

From the V8 parts manual, the sealant Marcus used ..

Gasket compound - Advanced formula Apply to inlet manifold gaskets A918E6069F As required

[lotusespritworld]

Following the posts about this subject, we at LEW have been talking to Lotus, who have looked into this. Read the bottom of our V8 Liner page for an update direct from Lotus.

www.lotusespritworld.com/ETechnical/V8_Liner_Problems.html

kato
Lotus Esprit World

[kmaier]

lotusespritworld said:

Following the posts about this subject, we at LEW have been talking to Lotus, who have looked into this. Read the bottom of our V8 Liner page for an update direct from Lotus. www.lotusespritworld.com/ETechnical/V8_Liner_Problems.html kato Lotus Esprit World

Kato,

This is some interesting info but without having any idea on how many miles Lotus Engineering has on their vehicle the results are mostly meaningless. I put over 50K miles on my V8 with zero engine related problems. Since the High-Torque ECM upgrade, I have two broken exhaust manifold studs, hammered engine engine mounts and leaking coolant into the crankcase within 3000 miles (now at 53K on the car). Any idea on how much use the Lotus Engineering car has on it?

Regards, KM
2000 V8

[lotusespritworld]

The LEW page has been updated with a response from Lotus. Hopefully you'll find it useful.

kato
Lotus Esprit World

[toyroom]

Travis: I think there is a confusion over terms here. By "Anionic water" I intended to mean distilled water. "Anionic" in this sense means that the water has been boiled or evaporated off and then recondensed with ions such as Sodium and chloride being left behind. In this sense, distilled water is anionic water. Hopefully, any tendency to oxidise the matal from which the engine is constructed will be slowed by the rust inhibiting qualities of the antifreeze.

[lotusse89]

toyroom said:

Travis: I think there is a confusion over terms here. By "Anionic water" I intended to mean distilled water. "Anionic" in this sense means that the water has been boiled or evaporated off and then recondensed with ions such as Sodium and chloride being left behind. In this sense, distilled water is anionic water. Hopefully, any tendency to oxidise the matal from which the engine is constructed will be slowed by the rust inhibiting qualities of the antifreeze.

The def of anionic is:
In chemistry, an anionic species is one that contains a full negative charge. These types of compounds can range in reactivity, but most are fairly reactive. (Which is neither Distilled nor De-ionized water.)

Obviously I thought you were talking about De-ionized water (DI-water). Though if you look in a dictionary, the word anionic is usually used in reference to a polymer or detergent, rather than water.

But the point is for people not to get confused and use De-ionized water, which is corrosive. Just buy the big 2.5gal plastic jugs of distilled water from the store/supermarket.

Let me just say that the previous owners of my car used the wrong kind of water, and din't change it enough. The system was corroded beyond recognition. Coolant isn't a magic bullet for stopping corrosion.

Travis

[B16 RFF]

lotusse89 said:

toyroom said: Travis: I think there is a confusion over terms here. By "Anionic water" I intended to mean distilled water. "Anionic" in this sense means that the water has been boiled or evaporated off and then recondensed with ions such as Sodium and chloride being left behind. In this sense, distilled water is anionic water. Hopefully, any tendency to oxidise the matal from which the engine is constructed will be slowed by the rust inhibiting qualities of the antifreeze. The def of anionic is: In chemistry, an anionic species is one that contains a full negative charge. These types of compounds can range in reactivity, but most are fairly reactive. (Which is neither Distilled nor De-ionized water.) Obviously I thought you were talking about De-ionized water (DI-water). Though if you look in a dictionary, the word anionic is usually used in reference to a polymer or detergent, rather than water. But the point is for people not to get confused and use De-ionized water, which is corrosive. Just buy the big 2.5gal plastic jugs of distilled water from the store/supermarket. Let me just say that the previous owners of my car used the wrong kind of water, and din't change it enough. The system was corroded beyond recognition. Coolant isn't a magic bullet for stopping corrosion. Travis

Well, I'm confused. When I was studying Advanced level chemistry at school back in the late 60s, de-ionised water was the purest available in the lab., superior to mere distilled water. We used to use it to make up solutions for particularly sensitive titration experiments because of it's lack of reactivity.
Has the definition of deionised water changed?

Paul

[lotusse89]

B16 RFF said:

Well, I'm confused. When I was studying Advanced level chemistry at school back in the late 60s, de-ionised water was the purest available in the lab., superior to mere distilled water. We used to use it to make up solutions for particularly sensitive titration experiments because of it's lack of reactivity. Has the definition of deionised water changed? Paul

I didn't say de-ionized water wasn't pure, I said it lacks ions and therefore will pull them out of metals that it comes in contact with. This flow of ions will create a battery and accelerate corrosion.

Travis
Vulcan Grey 89SE
www.lotuscolorado.com/vulcangrey/

[B16 RFF]

lotusse89 said:

I didn't say de-ionized water wasn't pure, I said it lacks ions and therefore will pull them out of metals that it comes in contact with. This flow of ions will create a battery and accelerate corrosion. Travis Vulcan Grey 89SE www.lotuscolorado.com/vulcangrey/

So are you saying the weak positive charge on a hydrogen atom in the water molecule will strip an electron from a metal atom?
Sounds most unlikely to me.

Would you care to elaborate?

Paul.

[kylie]

No water isn't pure despite what method of purification. In fact its a very dilute solution, why cause as you know it reacts with itself. A fresh water sample has a pH of around 7, but after oxidization with the air (carbon dioxide) takes place the pH drops to 5.8. (thats a reaction) This is why bottled water is meant to be nitrogen flushed in sealed containters. Now if we could do that to our esprits.....? Oh well you reminded me to flush the grotty water out anyway

>> Edited by kylie on Monday 27th June 06:27

>> Edited by kylie on Wednesday 20th July 05:50

[LordGrover]

GKP said:

&lt;pedant mode&gt; It's limescale in the water not chalk. &lt;pedant mode off&gt;

Ahem ... Limescale is the deposit left by (hard) water - it's calcium carbonate and other minerals and salts in the water.