The right stuff! - Engine / Gearbox choice!
Discussion
Hi Guys,
Well I have been doing some reading - wow what a lot to unravel!
I have been trying to make up my mind on the power unit and gearbox to fit to my GTR, so I can get the holes and adjustments to the panels finalised/
Right - I think the engine will be something like the LS2 - saw this on the latest Kit-car mag in an article on a yet another Cobra variant. What impressed me was the ability to use EFI and that the power delivery of around 450 bhp was smooth, which would suit road work with occasional track days. I believe this unit is used in the camero.
Hope they are reliable! - Any of you out there used this unit? - Any comments?
Where is the best place to source such a beast?
Secondly - after reading a recent thread it looks like that gearbox should be a GT2/3/twin turbo 6 speed with cable shift so a sequential mechanism would fit.
Any thoughts on where these can be sourced?
So there you have it - any comments - anything in your experience better for the job?
cheers
Well I have been doing some reading - wow what a lot to unravel!
I have been trying to make up my mind on the power unit and gearbox to fit to my GTR, so I can get the holes and adjustments to the panels finalised/
Right - I think the engine will be something like the LS2 - saw this on the latest Kit-car mag in an article on a yet another Cobra variant. What impressed me was the ability to use EFI and that the power delivery of around 450 bhp was smooth, which would suit road work with occasional track days. I believe this unit is used in the camero.
Hope they are reliable! - Any of you out there used this unit? - Any comments?
Where is the best place to source such a beast?
Secondly - after reading a recent thread it looks like that gearbox should be a GT2/3/twin turbo 6 speed with cable shift so a sequential mechanism would fit.
Any thoughts on where these can be sourced?
So there you have it - any comments - anything in your experience better for the job?
cheers
Be aware that you might have to have all the smog/emissions kit on your engine, which is why most of us run the venerable old SBC blocks from the early 70's - pre emissions regulations! You can still get plenty of EFI kits for these, i.e. Kinsler stack with a Motec M800 (my ideal!).
A GT2 turbo transaxle (G96/88) will set you back around on average £6-7k at least, depending if you want it new/rebuilt or used, the guys out at Jasmine motorsport gave me somewhere around those figures, though I'm sure there's other places to get them as well. Then you'll need to add another £2k or so for the sequential shifter.
It might be worth while trying to get a transaxle that is already designed as a sequential unit...
Good luck, I'd luv to see a sequential install!
A GT2 turbo transaxle (G96/88) will set you back around on average £6-7k at least, depending if you want it new/rebuilt or used, the guys out at Jasmine motorsport gave me somewhere around those figures, though I'm sure there's other places to get them as well. Then you'll need to add another £2k or so for the sequential shifter.
It might be worth while trying to get a transaxle that is already designed as a sequential unit...
Good luck, I'd luv to see a sequential install!
I don’t think there is anything too scary about having an emissions compliant engine depending on which tests they do. If you only have to do the exhaust emissions test you should be fine - if you have to do full "environmental testing" this could be a problem for other reasons - not the engine, I will explain:
There is a whole load of tests for emissions compliance and these are aimed at car manufacturers and are designed to test for a cars' long term emissions compliance... for example the "OBD2 Plug" is where you can plug into your computer and your computer will tell you what type of fault your emissions system has.
Anyway, in the exhaust-only part of the test, what they do is that they put the car on a dyno and they do a “drive cycle”. This is where they drive the car at certain revs for a certain period, and the dyno adjusts load along the way then they collect a portion of the exhaust gasses throughout the cycle and they measure against background air. Over the years the drive cycle has not changed, it is the allowable particulate values that have. In fact the Californian drive cycle has been around since the 70’s and was devised by a group of scientists who drove a car around the streets of Calif somewhere and measured the revs and speed of the car, and the loads created by the angle of hills etc and that is how they came up with the USA drive cycle.
There are 3 Drive cycles – EU, Japan and USA. The USA one is harder to pass as they measure emissions 3 separate times (start, middle and end of the cycle) and each of these 3 measurements has a pass level. In Japanese testing they measure twice (one cold and one hot test) and the Euro they do the whole drive cycle and measure all of the emissions and test against one set of values. The EURO test obviously is more lenient as the startup is the critical ‘cos Cats work best when hot.
This drive cycle is often the only test a kit car has to pass…..
The other test is "environmental testing" where they put the car in a container for 24 hours (or some such) without the engine running and measure ALL of the emissions from the car. You see, all of the rubber hoses and interior components etc emit hydrocarbons of some sort. If they do this testing I understand that the normal Ultima brake lines and hoses will fail the test and you need to use Teflon lines – not a huge difference in price but good to know before you start – ask Ted about this, he told me about this.
LS2 - I wouldn’t worry about the emissions too much, if you buy a new LS2 engine and use cats it will pass EURO4. When I checked with the local emissions testing agency here he said that anything that passes EURO4 is very clean. The test facility here (Hong Kong)is near the old airport, they have to keep the door shut all the time and be very careful not to let too much Hong Kong air into the facility, otherwise the background air is too dirty and affects the results!!! - he said the exhaust from EURO4 compliant cars is cleaner than the Hong Kong background air!!!
Dunno what the Emissions rules are in the UK - Euro3 is 1/2 the particulates of Euro4. The LS1 will definitely pass Euro 3 and these are much cheaper.
LS1 crate is around USD6000 WITH computer
www.sdpc2000.com/catalog/120/products/466/LS1-Crate-Engine-Kit-with-Computer.htm
LS2 crate is around USD6000 WITHOUT computer
www.sdpc2000.com/catalog/120/products/249549/LS2-60L-Gen-IV-Crate-Engine-Assembly.htm
Jeff Schwartz www.schwartzperformance.com just built a supercharged LS2 for me. He sorted out all the wiring etc - I recall he used a Camaro computer + harness and took out all the unnecessary wires (about 30 wires!)
If possible, get your engine, computer and trans through the same guy and get them to sort it all out. Chose someone that has done an LS onto an Ultima. There will be little things that will need to be done that they will know about from experience and you would have to find out from mistakes. They get trade discounts from other suppliers so the price to you should be the same anyway but you will save yourself a LOT of mistakes and running around.
Check carefully on the transaxle before you buy one - as far as I know (and I could be wrong) - there is no adaptor available for the Getrag box > LS engine. If the GT2 one is a G50 variant you may be OK. Check with a transaxle rebuilder first (Phii/ CMS etc)
Particulates info:
EURO Drive Cycle
Japanese Drive Cycle
USA Drive Cycle
Other emissions stuff here.
http://tk.files.storage.msn.com/x1poX_nVzrJvrcuXJUF6
>> Edited by crafty on Monday 30th January 01:25
>> Edited by crafty on Monday 30th January 01:29
There is a whole load of tests for emissions compliance and these are aimed at car manufacturers and are designed to test for a cars' long term emissions compliance... for example the "OBD2 Plug" is where you can plug into your computer and your computer will tell you what type of fault your emissions system has.
Anyway, in the exhaust-only part of the test, what they do is that they put the car on a dyno and they do a “drive cycle”. This is where they drive the car at certain revs for a certain period, and the dyno adjusts load along the way then they collect a portion of the exhaust gasses throughout the cycle and they measure against background air. Over the years the drive cycle has not changed, it is the allowable particulate values that have. In fact the Californian drive cycle has been around since the 70’s and was devised by a group of scientists who drove a car around the streets of Calif somewhere and measured the revs and speed of the car, and the loads created by the angle of hills etc and that is how they came up with the USA drive cycle.
There are 3 Drive cycles – EU, Japan and USA. The USA one is harder to pass as they measure emissions 3 separate times (start, middle and end of the cycle) and each of these 3 measurements has a pass level. In Japanese testing they measure twice (one cold and one hot test) and the Euro they do the whole drive cycle and measure all of the emissions and test against one set of values. The EURO test obviously is more lenient as the startup is the critical ‘cos Cats work best when hot.
This drive cycle is often the only test a kit car has to pass…..
The other test is "environmental testing" where they put the car in a container for 24 hours (or some such) without the engine running and measure ALL of the emissions from the car. You see, all of the rubber hoses and interior components etc emit hydrocarbons of some sort. If they do this testing I understand that the normal Ultima brake lines and hoses will fail the test and you need to use Teflon lines – not a huge difference in price but good to know before you start – ask Ted about this, he told me about this.
LS2 - I wouldn’t worry about the emissions too much, if you buy a new LS2 engine and use cats it will pass EURO4. When I checked with the local emissions testing agency here he said that anything that passes EURO4 is very clean. The test facility here (Hong Kong)is near the old airport, they have to keep the door shut all the time and be very careful not to let too much Hong Kong air into the facility, otherwise the background air is too dirty and affects the results!!! - he said the exhaust from EURO4 compliant cars is cleaner than the Hong Kong background air!!!
Dunno what the Emissions rules are in the UK - Euro3 is 1/2 the particulates of Euro4. The LS1 will definitely pass Euro 3 and these are much cheaper.
LS1 crate is around USD6000 WITH computer
www.sdpc2000.com/catalog/120/products/466/LS1-Crate-Engine-Kit-with-Computer.htm
LS2 crate is around USD6000 WITHOUT computer
www.sdpc2000.com/catalog/120/products/249549/LS2-60L-Gen-IV-Crate-Engine-Assembly.htm
Jeff Schwartz www.schwartzperformance.com just built a supercharged LS2 for me. He sorted out all the wiring etc - I recall he used a Camaro computer + harness and took out all the unnecessary wires (about 30 wires!)
If possible, get your engine, computer and trans through the same guy and get them to sort it all out. Chose someone that has done an LS onto an Ultima. There will be little things that will need to be done that they will know about from experience and you would have to find out from mistakes. They get trade discounts from other suppliers so the price to you should be the same anyway but you will save yourself a LOT of mistakes and running around.
Check carefully on the transaxle before you buy one - as far as I know (and I could be wrong) - there is no adaptor available for the Getrag box > LS engine. If the GT2 one is a G50 variant you may be OK. Check with a transaxle rebuilder first (Phii/ CMS etc)
Particulates info:
EURO Drive Cycle
Japanese Drive Cycle
USA Drive Cycle
Other emissions stuff here.
http://tk.files.storage.msn.com/x1poX_nVzrJvrcuXJUF6
>> Edited by crafty on Monday 30th January 01:25
>> Edited by crafty on Monday 30th January 01:29
I got my LS2 as a crate motor from the local speedshop (Melbourne) they are easy and cheap to buy and in the future
aftermarket parts will be as common as the good old SBC.
I have had LS engiines in several vehicles and never had a drama and believe me some of them have been in work utes
and have really been mistreated in every way you can imagine.
Also you can get 450 HP just looking at them sideways.
I cant imagine not using a SBC over the new LS engines. I think I paid around $6500.00 AU for a complete assembly (less ECU).
There are plenty of adapters out there to mount to transaxles also.
If youve got more coin go the LS7 ...................
aftermarket parts will be as common as the good old SBC.
I have had LS engiines in several vehicles and never had a drama and believe me some of them have been in work utes
and have really been mistreated in every way you can imagine.
Also you can get 450 HP just looking at them sideways.
I cant imagine not using a SBC over the new LS engines. I think I paid around $6500.00 AU for a complete assembly (less ECU).
There are plenty of adapters out there to mount to transaxles also.
If youve got more coin go the LS7 ...................
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