Congestion charging, Madcop advice needed.
Discussion
Hi Madcop,
Take a look at this article and can you advise on the legality of doing what it says i wonder?
www.geocities.com/congestioncharge/freelondon.html
Thanks in advance for any help on this.
>>> Edited by deltaf on Wednesday 22 January 13:49
>>> Edited by deltaf on Wednesday 22 January 13:50
Take a look at this article and can you advise on the legality of doing what it says i wonder?
www.geocities.com/congestioncharge/freelondon.html
Thanks in advance for any help on this.
>>> Edited by deltaf on Wednesday 22 January 13:49
>>> Edited by deltaf on Wednesday 22 January 13:50
Cool idea.
Related question: What if you had a white car with white colour-coded bumpers. The white number plate in the centre would be trickier to read by ANPR wouldn't it? I guess it could still pick out the letters, but if the s/w is searching for a shape to read the letters within maybe not ...
T/.
Related question: What if you had a white car with white colour-coded bumpers. The white number plate in the centre would be trickier to read by ANPR wouldn't it? I guess it could still pick out the letters, but if the s/w is searching for a shape to read the letters within maybe not ...
T/.
There is no point me typing out reems of legislation about number plate dimensions etc, as there is a link in deltafs post re the regulations.
There is no (as stated in the web site promoting this idea) legislation about the signs that you can have on the front or rear of your vehicle.
If you have a mind to, the next time you travel a major road, have a look at the number of large commercials especially tractor unit and semi trailers. A large number have not only the proper registration fixed to it but also company identification numbers and even drivers names attached to the vehicle (front and rear). Many of these identification marks which aid drivers locating trailers in ports or trailer holding areas are made on standard registration type plates, either black characters on yellow or white reflective backgrounds.
The only regulation that I see contravened by these plates, is that sometimes you see 'EDDIE' or 'NORMAN' attached to the front of the vehicle on a yellow reflective background.
Reflective material is subject of lighting regulations. It has to be compliant with construction and use regs only in relation to the colour of the background in relation to the position it is fixed on the vehilce. i.e. yellow at the rear, white at the front.
I can see no specific offence committed in relation to having more than one identification mark on the vehicle as long as the correct registration mark is attached to front and rear and has the right coloured background.
You would have to be very careful what you said to anyone in authority who asked you why you had three number plates on the front of your vehicle.
It could be construed as going equipped for theft under the Theft Act 1968.
When not at his place of abode, any person that has an item for or connected in the use of burglary theft or cheat Commits an offence.
This is off the top of my head. I will post the full Act if anyone wants to but am comfortable here at the moment and the law book is in another room.
Cheat covers obtaining property or services by deception. Knowing that you are eligible for a charge to take your car/van into the restricted area and having an item that will purposefully deceive the authority collecting that charge , may cause serious problems for someone.
The only plus in this is that the Act makes it quite clear that a machine cannot be deceived in any way.
Basically because it is not capable of reasoning and has no brain.
To trick something out of a machine by causing it to think it has accepted the correct payment is straight theft!
This could be done by doctoring pieces of steel into the same size and shape of 50p pieces and obtaining cigarettes from a vending machine.
So I would imagine that if you happen to have a plate attached to the front of your car where the proper registration mark usually fits, which reads 'UP YOURS KEN' and the index number next to it, you may well have some explaining to do.
The thought of 45,000 arrests per day in London would make even the staunchest custody Sergeant sweat and would bring the custody suits throughout London to a standstill.
It is a novel concept, but is possibly frought with danger.
Theft is a criminal offence. It carries 10 years maximum prison sentence (unless you are a pond dwelling amoeba and then every effort is made to keep you out of prison!)
Basically I do not know the full answer as it will have to be tested in court by someone who is willing to be a bit of a sacrificial lamb!
'OUTLAW' WHERE ARE YOU? 
There is no (as stated in the web site promoting this idea) legislation about the signs that you can have on the front or rear of your vehicle.
If you have a mind to, the next time you travel a major road, have a look at the number of large commercials especially tractor unit and semi trailers. A large number have not only the proper registration fixed to it but also company identification numbers and even drivers names attached to the vehicle (front and rear). Many of these identification marks which aid drivers locating trailers in ports or trailer holding areas are made on standard registration type plates, either black characters on yellow or white reflective backgrounds.
The only regulation that I see contravened by these plates, is that sometimes you see 'EDDIE' or 'NORMAN' attached to the front of the vehicle on a yellow reflective background.
Reflective material is subject of lighting regulations. It has to be compliant with construction and use regs only in relation to the colour of the background in relation to the position it is fixed on the vehilce. i.e. yellow at the rear, white at the front.
I can see no specific offence committed in relation to having more than one identification mark on the vehicle as long as the correct registration mark is attached to front and rear and has the right coloured background.
You would have to be very careful what you said to anyone in authority who asked you why you had three number plates on the front of your vehicle.
It could be construed as going equipped for theft under the Theft Act 1968.
When not at his place of abode, any person that has an item for or connected in the use of burglary theft or cheat Commits an offence.
This is off the top of my head. I will post the full Act if anyone wants to but am comfortable here at the moment and the law book is in another room.
Cheat covers obtaining property or services by deception. Knowing that you are eligible for a charge to take your car/van into the restricted area and having an item that will purposefully deceive the authority collecting that charge , may cause serious problems for someone.
The only plus in this is that the Act makes it quite clear that a machine cannot be deceived in any way.
Basically because it is not capable of reasoning and has no brain.
To trick something out of a machine by causing it to think it has accepted the correct payment is straight theft!
This could be done by doctoring pieces of steel into the same size and shape of 50p pieces and obtaining cigarettes from a vending machine.
So I would imagine that if you happen to have a plate attached to the front of your car where the proper registration mark usually fits, which reads 'UP YOURS KEN' and the index number next to it, you may well have some explaining to do.
The thought of 45,000 arrests per day in London would make even the staunchest custody Sergeant sweat and would bring the custody suits throughout London to a standstill.
It is a novel concept, but is possibly frought with danger.
Theft is a criminal offence. It carries 10 years maximum prison sentence (unless you are a pond dwelling amoeba and then every effort is made to keep you out of prison!)
Basically I do not know the full answer as it will have to be tested in court by someone who is willing to be a bit of a sacrificial lamb!
'OUTLAW' WHERE ARE YOU? 
Sweet idea, I suppose like most things it'll be down to who's prepared to be counted.
Good luck, glad I don't have to travel through Lundan.
I also hope it works for a selfish reason as well, if it fails there it won't be exported to all the other cities that are waiting in the wings with their cheque books
.
Harry
Good luck, glad I don't have to travel through Lundan.
I also hope it works for a selfish reason as well, if it fails there it won't be exported to all the other cities that are waiting in the wings with their cheque books
. Harry
LoL
i aint local to london but next time im up there
Im takng a sape set of index plates with me :-)
any I hate driving in ceteral london and done do it as much as I used to.
It a wast i time in a car rather take a bike if im have to go up there.
as for you coments on theft . intent would be very hard to prove on this one.
i aint local to london but next time im up there
Im takng a sape set of index plates with me :-)
any I hate driving in ceteral london and done do it as much as I used to.
It a wast i time in a car rather take a bike if im have to go up there.
as for you coments on theft . intent would be very hard to prove on this one.
outlaw said: LoL
i aint local to london but next time im up there
Im takng a sape set of index plates with me :-)
any I hate driving in ceteral london and done do it as much as I used to.
It a wast i time in a car rather take a bike if im have to go up there.
as for you coments on theft . intent would be very hard to prove on this one.
How would intent be hard to prove on this?
You couldnt really claim to "Accidentally" have put an extra plate on the front of your car could you?
Or claim to have done so for a legitimate reason?
I think there is a flaw with this.
The web site says that you can "check on-line" if you have been "spotted". Having looked all over cclondon.com, I can't find any mention of being able to check. You just put in your car number, the date, and your CC/DC details and that is it.
So - how do you know if you have been spotted or not???????
J
The web site says that you can "check on-line" if you have been "spotted". Having looked all over cclondon.com, I can't find any mention of being able to check. You just put in your car number, the date, and your CC/DC details and that is it.
So - how do you know if you have been spotted or not???????
J
I would nmot pay too much attention to the nonsense posted on the SOD-U-KEN site really. The amount of brainless posturing going on there is hilarious.
The police have been involved in contingency planning together with Transport for London and a harsh approach is planned for those who try any of the number plate tricks.
It is also planned to use section 60 of the Criminal Justice Act to keep any protesters in a cordon where they meet up to go and cause disruption.
Those who block the roads in their cars will have the windows smashed and be dragged out and arrested.
The met Police have a lot to gain with the introduction of the automatic number plate recognition system. It is live at the monet and the Met have been nicking miscreants left right and centre.
The met need the ongoing co-operation of TFL and will do anything to keep it.
The police have been involved in contingency planning together with Transport for London and a harsh approach is planned for those who try any of the number plate tricks.
It is also planned to use section 60 of the Criminal Justice Act to keep any protesters in a cordon where they meet up to go and cause disruption.
Those who block the roads in their cars will have the windows smashed and be dragged out and arrested.
The met Police have a lot to gain with the introduction of the automatic number plate recognition system. It is live at the monet and the Met have been nicking miscreants left right and centre.
The met need the ongoing co-operation of TFL and will do anything to keep it.
It's funny how some of the new cameras point at roads that aren't in the charging zone - the one at the corner of Prescot Street and MansellStreet being a prime example - it points onto Prescot Street and Mansell Street, but they are not actuall *in* the charging zone...
tallchris99 said:The met Police have a lot to gain with the introduction of the automatic number plate recognition system. It is live at the monet and the Met have been nicking miscreants left right and centre.
The more nicked and dodgy cars they spot the better says I!
J
Didums deltaf...
If you plan ileagal ways of countering a democratic policy such as the congestion charge then you can expect to get some stick.
You even had arseholes coming up with ways of countering the charge who don't live in the country let alone London.
>> Edited by tallchris99 on Monday 27th January 10:28
If you plan ileagal ways of countering a democratic policy such as the congestion charge then you can expect to get some stick.
You even had arseholes coming up with ways of countering the charge who don't live in the country let alone London.
>> Edited by tallchris99 on Monday 27th January 10:28
tallchris99 said: If you plan ileagal ways of countering a democratic policy such as the congestion charge then you can expect to get some stick.
Democratic? How so? I do not remember a chance to vote on this.
You even had arseholes coming up with ways of countering the charge who don't live in the country let alone London.
There is no need to be anal with your comments, why does it matter where somebody lives?
I'm with outlaw on this one.
The best way forward is the use of cloned plates.
20 quid a plate, thats 40 quid a car and you're away.
The only problem is once the legit owner of the plates starts getting fined even when he's been nowhere near London the game is up. So best make sure you clone a car that goes into London daily and pays its charge so you won't get found out.
Also Tallchriss99 people from other cities don't want the London scheme to be branded a success cos it will only lead to the scheme being rolled out all of the UK as some sort of cure all solution and as a money making exercise for greedy councils.
This is why it MUST fail. So that we will continue to enjoy freedom of movement on the road network we've ALREADY PAID FOR about a hundred times over.
SO f**k congestion charging.
Its unfair on the poor and benifits only the rich.
Hardly a fair way forward.
Andy
The best way forward is the use of cloned plates.
20 quid a plate, thats 40 quid a car and you're away.
The only problem is once the legit owner of the plates starts getting fined even when he's been nowhere near London the game is up. So best make sure you clone a car that goes into London daily and pays its charge so you won't get found out.
Also Tallchriss99 people from other cities don't want the London scheme to be branded a success cos it will only lead to the scheme being rolled out all of the UK as some sort of cure all solution and as a money making exercise for greedy councils.
This is why it MUST fail. So that we will continue to enjoy freedom of movement on the road network we've ALREADY PAID FOR about a hundred times over.
SO f**k congestion charging.
Its unfair on the poor and benifits only the rich.
Hardly a fair way forward.
Andy
I would also add that simply because I dont LIVE in London that does not mean I dont travel there.
There are occasions where its more practical to use the train. Fine. However there are far more where its not.
The "congestion" charge has nothing at all to do with pollution, your "choking city" as you put it will continue to be deluged with clouds of particulate emmisions by buses and taxis (who generate far more than several cars each). Many modern cars actually emit "cleaner" air in their exhausts than they suck in.
Its about rationalising a limited commodity (road space in central london) and a decision has been made to do this through price.
There are occasions where its more practical to use the train. Fine. However there are far more where its not.
The "congestion" charge has nothing at all to do with pollution, your "choking city" as you put it will continue to be deluged with clouds of particulate emmisions by buses and taxis (who generate far more than several cars each). Many modern cars actually emit "cleaner" air in their exhausts than they suck in.
Its about rationalising a limited commodity (road space in central london) and a decision has been made to do this through price.
It's not just other UK cities that are watching for the success of the London scheme, Ken said on Question Time that cities the whole world over are waiting to see if it works.
So, tallchris99 get off your tall
and consider the fact that people in other countries DO have an interest in the London scheme!
So, tallchris99 get off your tall
and consider the fact that people in other countries DO have an interest in the London scheme!
tallchris99 said: Because you have to look at peoples motivations. if a chap lives abroad what does it concern him if we have a congestion charge?
If you live in London you had the chance to vote for a mayor no?
if you don't live in London well have a bit of consideration for our choking city.
What a load of bull, did RedKen get voted in on the strength of congestion charging, I think not.
No, I do not live in London (or the UK currently) but I do visit occasionally and 'need' to drive there.
From your last paragraph I would think you may be RedKen himself in disguise.
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