Etch Primer or Zinc Phosphate on bare metal?
Discussion
Well, got a few ideas in the pipeline - there's a place who do it down in Sussex - probably better for you. About £800 roughly. Nearer to me (Cambs) there's a guy near Bedford who does it for about £4/500 - and uses the zinc phosphate - and then there's bloke even closer (Huntingdon) who charges about £5/600 and uses etch primer - hence the question.
Can give you the details if each if you're interested.
And ... I have investigated blasting it myself ... ! Only the top of the car needs blasting as the bottom has had new floors and they have already been primered and undersealed. A company local to me reckon they have some small stuff they can hire out ... yet to give them a ring back to find out more (contacted them by email). They do bigger industrial cleaning ...
The car still has all the front suspension on it - engine in etc so not at the stage where I'm going to get it done just yet in any case.
Can give you the details if each if you're interested.
And ... I have investigated blasting it myself ... ! Only the top of the car needs blasting as the bottom has had new floors and they have already been primered and undersealed. A company local to me reckon they have some small stuff they can hire out ... yet to give them a ring back to find out more (contacted them by email). They do bigger industrial cleaning ...
The car still has all the front suspension on it - engine in etc so not at the stage where I'm going to get it done just yet in any case.
I've heard bad things about having the car acid dipped ... apparently it gets into all the crevices and seams and can stay there for a LONG while ... I've read posts on US forums where months later, the paint finish has gone funny because the acid is still in there in minute quantities and 'comes out' and affects the paint.
That's why I was thinking of the plastic media blasting route ...
That's why I was thinking of the plastic media blasting route ...
B19GRR said:
Hi,
Could you let me know who the guys are in Huntingdon and Bedford please.
Cheers,
Rob
Could you let me know who the guys are in Huntingdon and Bedford please.
Cheers,
Rob
www.summitblastcleaning.co.uk
Peter Boonham is the guy's name - not used him obviously but over on the Mustang Owners Club forum he got a hearty recommendation from a guy in Cambridge who completely stripped his '68 fback. Wants the car delivered to him completely stripped though - axles, suspension, engine out the lot - a) so he can do a better job and b)cos of the weight as he lifts it in the air by some chain affair so I've been told to get underneath ... ! The shell is rolled around on some kind of wheeled frame he has while it's at his. He used etch primer after the blasting.
The Bedford guy i have an email for - I'll have to have a google for his site though as I've mislaid the URL. I have his tel no as well though ... His email is: martin.postles@btopenworld.com and his phone no. is 01462-814244. He is located just south of Bedford ... He says plastic media is too expensive to use and doesn't do a good job on removing rust (just paint). He is the guy who recommends zinc phosphate after the blasting hence the original question.
If you're going to maybe contact and see either of these guys please let me know what you thought.
Hope that helps.
Edited by MikeyT on Friday 4th August 12:11
Cool, thanks mate. It's going to be a while though before I really start to think about a full strip down. I've got to see if my car is even salvageable at the moment, I've got to replace floors, full chassis rails, sills and replace a lot of really bad patch repairs. If I get to the otherside of that lot with a chassis still in one piece then I reckon it ll deserve to be cleaned up properly 
BTW regarding DIY blasting, I bought one of those 60 quid pressure pot blasters of Ebay and it does do a pretty good job. I built a fairly large cabinet to do the blasting in and run it off my 3hp/100l compressor (doesn't quite keep up). It's good for cleaning up smallish bits and pieces - I've done gearbox bellhousings with no problems. I imagine it'd be a bit painful to do a full car with though, plus you'd loose all the media. I use patio sand (cheap from Wickes, make sure it's dry though) for steel, or glass beads on Ali. Got to be careful with the sand and make sure you wear a decent mask as it breaks down with use and you definitely don't want the dust to get in to your lungs, think worse than asbestos.
Cheers,
Rob
BTW regarding DIY blasting, I bought one of those 60 quid pressure pot blasters of Ebay and it does do a pretty good job. I built a fairly large cabinet to do the blasting in and run it off my 3hp/100l compressor (doesn't quite keep up). It's good for cleaning up smallish bits and pieces - I've done gearbox bellhousings with no problems. I imagine it'd be a bit painful to do a full car with though, plus you'd loose all the media. I use patio sand (cheap from Wickes, make sure it's dry though) for steel, or glass beads on Ali. Got to be careful with the sand and make sure you wear a decent mask as it breaks down with use and you definitely don't want the dust to get in to your lungs, think worse than asbestos.
Cheers,
Rob
I'm looking into getting one of those small blast cabinets from ebay or machine mart. they're under £100 I think. Then a small air compressor to provide the oomph and off we go - I'm talking about the bits that need doing other than the car here! Brackets, nuts, pipes etc ...
Talked to a guy at a recent show and he'd rebuilt his Boss 429 himself, every last nut and bolt went through his small blasting cabinet - took him hours he said, but oh, so therapuetic!
Not sure on the DIY route for the blasting, I'll maybe go and visit this company in time - they're only five miles from me and see what they have to offer. If I don't think it's going to get the car as I want, or it's going to be a lot of hassle, I'll take it to one of the guys I mentioned.
One of the things that has always puzled me: it's OK doing it in a purpiose made blast room, but how do you do it in your garage - there must be media EVERYWHERE! I've seen a pic of a guy using a blast tool with a cone shaped suction thingy on the end which is very close to the object you're blasting - don't know whether this then sucks up the media as it comes off the surface after hitting it.
Talked to a guy at a recent show and he'd rebuilt his Boss 429 himself, every last nut and bolt went through his small blasting cabinet - took him hours he said, but oh, so therapuetic!
Not sure on the DIY route for the blasting, I'll maybe go and visit this company in time - they're only five miles from me and see what they have to offer. If I don't think it's going to get the car as I want, or it's going to be a lot of hassle, I'll take it to one of the guys I mentioned.
One of the things that has always puzled me: it's OK doing it in a purpiose made blast room, but how do you do it in your garage - there must be media EVERYWHERE! I've seen a pic of a guy using a blast tool with a cone shaped suction thingy on the end which is very close to the object you're blasting - don't know whether this then sucks up the media as it comes off the surface after hitting it.
Thanks for the reply MikeyT
Here's a couple of replies I got from a couple of blasters and one dipping place.Maybe they will be of some interest. The acid dippers sent a whole load of pics,one of which was a Mustang. I can forward them in an email if you wish.PM if so.
The first reply is from a place in Sussex whos name I forget,but guess it is the same place you mention.The second is from Central Blast Cleaning and the third ( the acid dip place ) is a company called Surface Processing. The horror stories with dipping are enough for me not to want to chance it,but their reply and the pictures did make me think twice.
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Thanks for your email.
Yes it is always difficult to guestimate the cost of jobs like this because the paint system and the underseal are the two main issues.
The paint is likely to be base coat and clear which is hard and therefore hard to get rid of. The underseal is even harder to remove as it is likely to be the rubberised variety and almost bullet proof. It is sometimes the case that customers elect to have the underseal blasted hard to find and remove any weaknesses if the material is basically sound. Some clients do much of the manual scraping off of the underseal to save cost which is what we will have to do if we do it. It is not cost effective to blast it off as it is designed to resist abrasion..
The cleaning of the painted areas is likely to cost in the region of £750 and the underseal areas as much as £500 if they are the tough materials. If they are older materials then the cost overall could be around the £750 mark but I would not hold your breath. All plus the dreaded VAT.
Hope we can do something for you. We are mentioned in the Dec edition of Practical classics by Mark Evens who does the rebuild projects for Discovery TV. We do his blasting work.
Regards, Jamie
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Hi Brian
If there is no underseal on the car we can blast the underneath the inside the engine bay all door shuts and window reveals the cost for that is aprox £395.00 + vat. we can carry out a bare metal strip and prime including all body panels i.e. roof rear quarters cost £1160 + vat depending on the next stage as we do not recommend leaving a car in primer for any length of time as most primers are porous. if you need any more information please call me on 01295 278233 or 07767 767 089
Regards Mick.
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Hi Brian,
Sorry to take so long to come back to you
Our process was initially designed for the purpose of cleaning rally shells for Prodrive. However we now process high volumes of classic car shells, from Austin Healy 3000, Alfa Romeo, MGA, Porsche and BMW’S. Modern day vehicles have been designed for Electrophoretic priming and hence these have adequate drainage. Classic vehicles were made with box section and were historically painted with primer by hand.
In order for us to process a classic shell we would firstly recommend any box section on the shell should have 6mm holes on both ends of the section to allow
drainage in an out. This would then allow the process to penetrate any hollow section cleaning all the cavities. Finally each section would be washed out using a high pressure rinse whilst applying a rust inhibitor solution in the water.
We can also apply an acid etch primer or an electrophoretic primer at additional cost. Leaflet attached.
A standard BMW 3 series shell would cost £675.00 to strip.
To oven dry and acid etch prime £300.00
Electrophoretic prime £750.00
All prices subject to VAT.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here's a couple of replies I got from a couple of blasters and one dipping place.Maybe they will be of some interest. The acid dippers sent a whole load of pics,one of which was a Mustang. I can forward them in an email if you wish.PM if so.
The first reply is from a place in Sussex whos name I forget,but guess it is the same place you mention.The second is from Central Blast Cleaning and the third ( the acid dip place ) is a company called Surface Processing. The horror stories with dipping are enough for me not to want to chance it,but their reply and the pictures did make me think twice.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for your email.
Yes it is always difficult to guestimate the cost of jobs like this because the paint system and the underseal are the two main issues.
The paint is likely to be base coat and clear which is hard and therefore hard to get rid of. The underseal is even harder to remove as it is likely to be the rubberised variety and almost bullet proof. It is sometimes the case that customers elect to have the underseal blasted hard to find and remove any weaknesses if the material is basically sound. Some clients do much of the manual scraping off of the underseal to save cost which is what we will have to do if we do it. It is not cost effective to blast it off as it is designed to resist abrasion..
The cleaning of the painted areas is likely to cost in the region of £750 and the underseal areas as much as £500 if they are the tough materials. If they are older materials then the cost overall could be around the £750 mark but I would not hold your breath. All plus the dreaded VAT.
Hope we can do something for you. We are mentioned in the Dec edition of Practical classics by Mark Evens who does the rebuild projects for Discovery TV. We do his blasting work.
Regards, Jamie
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Brian
If there is no underseal on the car we can blast the underneath the inside the engine bay all door shuts and window reveals the cost for that is aprox £395.00 + vat. we can carry out a bare metal strip and prime including all body panels i.e. roof rear quarters cost £1160 + vat depending on the next stage as we do not recommend leaving a car in primer for any length of time as most primers are porous. if you need any more information please call me on 01295 278233 or 07767 767 089
Regards Mick.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Brian,
Sorry to take so long to come back to you
Our process was initially designed for the purpose of cleaning rally shells for Prodrive. However we now process high volumes of classic car shells, from Austin Healy 3000, Alfa Romeo, MGA, Porsche and BMW’S. Modern day vehicles have been designed for Electrophoretic priming and hence these have adequate drainage. Classic vehicles were made with box section and were historically painted with primer by hand.
In order for us to process a classic shell we would firstly recommend any box section on the shell should have 6mm holes on both ends of the section to allow
drainage in an out. This would then allow the process to penetrate any hollow section cleaning all the cavities. Finally each section would be washed out using a high pressure rinse whilst applying a rust inhibitor solution in the water.
We can also apply an acid etch primer or an electrophoretic primer at additional cost. Leaflet attached.
A standard BMW 3 series shell would cost £675.00 to strip.
To oven dry and acid etch prime £300.00
Electrophoretic prime £750.00
All prices subject to VAT.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MikeyT said:
One of the things that has always puzled me: it's OK doing it in a purpiose made blast room, but how do you do it in your garage - there must be media EVERYWHERE! I've seen a pic of a guy using a blast tool with a cone shaped suction thingy on the end which is very close to the object you're blasting - don't know whether this then sucks up the media as it comes off the surface after hitting it.
Yeah the stuff really does get everywhere! The only thing I can think of for doing a shell in a garage would be to build a tent from plastic sheeting all around the vehicle, the stuff will still get out though!
I've not used one of those recirculating blast gun things but I've heard they're pretty slow going, as are the little blast cabinets which use syphon feed.
On the subject of media getting everywhere, this is also a bit of an issue when doing car bodies as it's not aways possible to get it out of all the seams and tight places, so depending on the media, there can be a risk of corrosion, or paint not adhering perfectly.
BTW, I'm just down near Ramsey if you want to pop down sometime and check out my set up, might give you more of an idea for your own needs.
Cheers,
Rob
Edited by B19GRR on Friday 4th August 19:28
I feel for you guys trying to find a solution to the dreaded rust bug.
I doubly feel for you as I'm project managing the design and installation of a £280k grit blasting and paint facility where I work. Each booth is 4.5m wide x 4.5m high x 13m long. We will be using stainless steel grit which will cost £22k to fill the machine.
As has been said you must prime within hours (preferably minutes) of blasting or all your efforts will be wasted. This may even mean blasting a section then priming it even though you have not finish all the blasting. Any decent primer will be OK on steel but Ali must be etch primed.
Steve
I doubly feel for you as I'm project managing the design and installation of a £280k grit blasting and paint facility where I work. Each booth is 4.5m wide x 4.5m high x 13m long. We will be using stainless steel grit which will cost £22k to fill the machine.
As has been said you must prime within hours (preferably minutes) of blasting or all your efforts will be wasted. This may even mean blasting a section then priming it even though you have not finish all the blasting. Any decent primer will be OK on steel but Ali must be etch primed.
Steve
steve_d said:
I feel for you guys trying to find a solution to the dreaded rust bug.
I doubly feel for you as I'm project managing the design and installation of a £280k grit blasting and paint facility where I work. Each booth is 4.5m wide x 4.5m high x 13m long. We will be using stainless steel grit which will cost £22k to fill the machine.
As has been said you must prime within hours (preferably minutes) of blasting or all your efforts will be wasted. This may even mean blasting a section then priming it even though you have not finish all the blasting. Any decent primer will be OK on steel but Ali must be etch primed.
Steve
I doubly feel for you as I'm project managing the design and installation of a £280k grit blasting and paint facility where I work. Each booth is 4.5m wide x 4.5m high x 13m long. We will be using stainless steel grit which will cost £22k to fill the machine.
As has been said you must prime within hours (preferably minutes) of blasting or all your efforts will be wasted. This may even mean blasting a section then priming it even though you have not finish all the blasting. Any decent primer will be OK on steel but Ali must be etch primed.
Steve
Hi Steve,
You'll be wanting some test vehicles running through the booth then just to make sure it runs well, like, mate ...
I can think of at last three!
Seriously, sounds like you have a great set-up there - is that the average kind of investment £-wise needed to create a blasting facility? What are you blasting that needs 40+feet?
Why does the primer have to go on *that* quickly - does the steel really begin to oxidise or whatever *that* quickly? I supoose when it's blasted, it really is 'bare', rather then just rubbed down and benefits from something to seal it ...
Forgive my naiviety on the subject.
B19GRR said:
On the subject of media getting everywhere, this is also a bit of an issue when doing car bodies as it's not aways possible to get it out of all the seams and tight places, so depending on the media, there can be a risk of corrosion, or paint not adhering perfectly.
BTW, I'm just down near Ramsey if you want to pop down sometime and check out my set up, might give you more of an idea for your own needs.
Cheers,
Rob
BTW, I'm just down near Ramsey if you want to pop down sometime and check out my set up, might give you more of an idea for your own needs.
Cheers,
Rob
I think that's when the ol' air line comes in useful to get the media out of paces it shouldn't be ...
Would love to pop over sometime for a look and a chat ... can the Mussie manage the backroads to Ramsey though without ending up in a dyke ...
MikeyT said:
steve_d said:
I feel for you guys trying to find a solution to the dreaded rust bug.
I doubly feel for you as I'm project managing the design and installation of a £280k grit blasting and paint facility where I work. Each booth is 4.5m wide x 4.5m high x 13m long. We will be using stainless steel grit which will cost £22k to fill the machine.
As has been said you must prime within hours (preferably minutes) of blasting or all your efforts will be wasted. This may even mean blasting a section then priming it even though you have not finish all the blasting. Any decent primer will be OK on steel but Ali must be etch primed.
Steve
I doubly feel for you as I'm project managing the design and installation of a £280k grit blasting and paint facility where I work. Each booth is 4.5m wide x 4.5m high x 13m long. We will be using stainless steel grit which will cost £22k to fill the machine.
As has been said you must prime within hours (preferably minutes) of blasting or all your efforts will be wasted. This may even mean blasting a section then priming it even though you have not finish all the blasting. Any decent primer will be OK on steel but Ali must be etch primed.
Steve
Hi Steve,
You'll be wanting some test vehicles running through the booth then just to make sure it runs well, like, mate ...
I can think of at last three!
Seriously, sounds like you have a great set-up there - is that the average kind of investment £-wise needed to create a blasting facility? What are you blasting that needs 40+feet?
Why does the primer have to go on *that* quickly - does the steel really begin to oxidise or whatever *that* quickly? I supoose when it's blasted, it really is 'bare', rather then just rubbed down and benefits from something to seal it ...
Forgive my naiviety on the subject.
Unfortunately I probably won't even get anything of mine in there as it is in a large defence company and will be used to refurbish naval radar systems.
The rusting process starts immediately. The blasted finish is rougher than a rubbed finish which also increases the surface area for the rust. If you don't have time to blast and prime the whole item (car) then do it in stages so you have time to prime. When you are ready to carry on then blast back over the edge of the primed area to ensure you haven't missed a bit.
Steve
can confirm what steve says, took kit car chassis for blasting, when I picked it up I started painting it within an hour even then there were very slight patches of surface rust appearing I wired brushed those off and brushed painted zinc phosphate primer on, also as mentioned primer can absorb moisture so get it top coated asap
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