Tuscan clutch !!!!!!!!
Discussion
Hi all - was coming up to a junction in my 2002 Tuscan S on wednesday and noticed my car was still creeping forward even with the clutch on the floor, took it out of gear and when road was clear got 1st again but couldnt pull out on roundabout due to traffic, so had to put it back into neutral - I then could not get a gear for love nor money - traffic started to build from behind and cars were forcing there way by on my left - so I pushed my car forward about 5 feet which gave way for the traffic - but just could not get any gear ? I then had to wait about 15 mins for my dad to arrive, in which time I had to put up with many sarcastic remarks and lots of pointing and laughing - one guy in a open top BMW actually stopped along side and told me to "buy a proper car.....instead of that S**T" - Just wondered if anyone has had a similar problem with there clutch and does it mean a whole new clutch or could it be part of it ? Thanks
mine did exactly that approaching J15 M40/A46 in rush hour. blocked a whole lane.
for the 1st 1/2h nobody stopped to help, including a copper. it was slightly up hill and I couldn't shift it myself
eventually 3 blokes got out a transit and helped me push it to the side.
during the subsequent wait for RAC I observed
everytime the lights went red the last car crossed them on red
hundreds people using mobile phones (probably late due to the traffic jam)
12 people picking thier nose
about 1:20 cars had more than 1 person in
5 people reading a newspaper at the wheel
1 person eating bacon butty
most people pull in when they see I am stuck
some people pull up behind me and wait several mins until they realise I am stuck
people who see a gap in the traffic and race up behind me then get arsey cos nobody wants to let them pull in
lots abuse hearled at me
it really was a sad observation on humanity
for the 1st 1/2h nobody stopped to help, including a copper. it was slightly up hill and I couldn't shift it myself
eventually 3 blokes got out a transit and helped me push it to the side.
during the subsequent wait for RAC I observed
everytime the lights went red the last car crossed them on red
hundreds people using mobile phones (probably late due to the traffic jam)
12 people picking thier nose
about 1:20 cars had more than 1 person in
5 people reading a newspaper at the wheel
1 person eating bacon butty
most people pull in when they see I am stuck
some people pull up behind me and wait several mins until they realise I am stuck
people who see a gap in the traffic and race up behind me then get arsey cos nobody wants to let them pull in
lots abuse hearled at me
it really was a sad observation on humanity
Russin Rocket - sounds like you went through exactly the same - I too had people pull up behind me and start papping there horn as if I waiting for a gap to fit an artic, I thought "hazards are on,door is wide open,I have 1 foot on the road and everyone else is going past me on the left" she then started shaking her head as if I have done this just for something to do on a wednesday morning.
What was the out come of you episode ?
Please tell me it was just a small part that could be fitted in an afternoon for £89.74p
I know, Iknow..............only kidding - I will happily pay £100 :-)
What was the out come of you episode ?
Please tell me it was just a small part that could be fitted in an afternoon for £89.74p
I know, Iknow..............only kidding - I will happily pay £100 :-)
Gents,
I read these clutch failure tales with despair. Whilst I have absolutely nothing to gain by plugging the TVRCraft components I am doing so because the parts they offer are far superior in design and everyone can benefit particularly those with vehicles out of or without warranty.
To me it makes complete nonsense and a waste of money to replace a clutch with another standard item when you know for a fact that it is going to fail in a short time. The problems with the standard clutch are:
1) The Slave cylinder (the item that pushes the thrust bearing into the pressure plate) has poor grade seals and was never designed to cope with the pressure from a twin plate clutch set up.
2) The thrust bearing has a curved bearing face which presses into the pressure plate fingers, the bearing diameter is too small / or the fingers are too short (depends how you want to look at it), but the effect is that the tips of the fingers wear thin and break off.... hence erratic clutch operation which eventually fails altogether.
3) Whilst in operation the butterfly springs on the clutch assembly wear away the fly wheel and create grooves in its surface. Replacing a clutch assembly generally means that the fly wheel has to be skimmed (at least if the grooves are evident they should be removed).
4) The friction plates are actually the ones out of a Sierra Cosworth. Whilst there is nothing wrong with this, it does point out that this whole clutch assembly is a mix n match of parts that were never specifically designed for the S6 application. And it does appear NOTHING has been done to rectify this despite the number of premature failures.
TVRCraft have sourced competition dual plate clutch assemblies that DO work. They built a test rig in order to replicate the TVR installation and bench tested it before fitting it into a car. The clutch is smaller and made of lighter weight materials than the standard. The friction plate is sintered metal and will way out last the standard plates by 10's of K miles. This installation does require modifications to the existing bell housing to fit the purpose built hydraulic slave cylinder and the fly wheel requires modification to fit the smaller diameter clutch assembly. This whole Clutch assembly can be fitted for a few hundered quid more than a standard clutch. It also fits the Cerbera.
The only down side is that you will have to go all the way to Salisbury to get it fitted.... but you won't have to return 20K ish miles later, or less in some cases!
I dunno it just makes total common sense to me.
I read these clutch failure tales with despair. Whilst I have absolutely nothing to gain by plugging the TVRCraft components I am doing so because the parts they offer are far superior in design and everyone can benefit particularly those with vehicles out of or without warranty.
To me it makes complete nonsense and a waste of money to replace a clutch with another standard item when you know for a fact that it is going to fail in a short time. The problems with the standard clutch are:
1) The Slave cylinder (the item that pushes the thrust bearing into the pressure plate) has poor grade seals and was never designed to cope with the pressure from a twin plate clutch set up.
2) The thrust bearing has a curved bearing face which presses into the pressure plate fingers, the bearing diameter is too small / or the fingers are too short (depends how you want to look at it), but the effect is that the tips of the fingers wear thin and break off.... hence erratic clutch operation which eventually fails altogether.
3) Whilst in operation the butterfly springs on the clutch assembly wear away the fly wheel and create grooves in its surface. Replacing a clutch assembly generally means that the fly wheel has to be skimmed (at least if the grooves are evident they should be removed).
4) The friction plates are actually the ones out of a Sierra Cosworth. Whilst there is nothing wrong with this, it does point out that this whole clutch assembly is a mix n match of parts that were never specifically designed for the S6 application. And it does appear NOTHING has been done to rectify this despite the number of premature failures.
TVRCraft have sourced competition dual plate clutch assemblies that DO work. They built a test rig in order to replicate the TVR installation and bench tested it before fitting it into a car. The clutch is smaller and made of lighter weight materials than the standard. The friction plate is sintered metal and will way out last the standard plates by 10's of K miles. This installation does require modifications to the existing bell housing to fit the purpose built hydraulic slave cylinder and the fly wheel requires modification to fit the smaller diameter clutch assembly. This whole Clutch assembly can be fitted for a few hundered quid more than a standard clutch. It also fits the Cerbera.
The only down side is that you will have to go all the way to Salisbury to get it fitted.... but you won't have to return 20K ish miles later, or less in some cases!
I dunno it just makes total common sense to me.
yzf1070 said:
Gents,
I read these clutch failure tales with despair. Whilst I have absolutely nothing to gain by plugging the TVRCraft components I am doing so because the parts they offer are far superior in design and everyone can benefit particularly those with vehicles out of or without warranty.
To me it makes complete nonsense and a waste of money to replace a clutch with another standard item when you know for a fact that it is going to fail in a short time. The problems with the standard clutch are:
1) The Slave cylinder (the item that pushes the thrust bearing into the pressure plate) has poor grade seals and was never designed to cope with the pressure from a twin plate clutch set up.
2) The thrust bearing has a curved bearing face which presses into the pressure plate fingers, the bearing diameter is too small / or the fingers are too short (depends how you want to look at it), but the effect is that the tips of the fingers wear thin and break off.... hence erratic clutch operation which eventually fails altogether.
3) Whilst in operation the butterfly springs on the clutch assembly wear away the fly wheel and create grooves in its surface. Replacing a clutch assembly generally means that the fly wheel has to be skimmed (at least if the grooves are evident they should be removed).
4) The friction plates are actually the ones out of a Sierra Cosworth. Whilst there is nothing wrong with this, it does point out that this whole clutch assembly is a mix n match of parts that were never specifically designed for the S6 application. And it does appear NOTHING has been done to rectify this despite the number of premature failures.
TVRCraft have sourced competition dual plate clutch assemblies that DO work. They built a test rig in order to replicate the TVR installation and bench tested it before fitting it into a car. The clutch is smaller and made of lighter weight materials than the standard. The friction plate is sintered metal and will way out last the standard plates by 10's of K miles. This installation does require modifications to the existing bell housing to fit the purpose built hydraulic slave cylinder and the fly wheel requires modification to fit the smaller diameter clutch assembly. This whole Clutch assembly can be fitted for a few hundered quid more than a standard clutch. It also fits the Cerbera.
The only down side is that you will have to go all the way to Salisbury to get it fitted.... but you won't have to return 20K ish miles later, or less in some cases!
I dunno it just makes total common sense to me.
I read these clutch failure tales with despair. Whilst I have absolutely nothing to gain by plugging the TVRCraft components I am doing so because the parts they offer are far superior in design and everyone can benefit particularly those with vehicles out of or without warranty.
To me it makes complete nonsense and a waste of money to replace a clutch with another standard item when you know for a fact that it is going to fail in a short time. The problems with the standard clutch are:
1) The Slave cylinder (the item that pushes the thrust bearing into the pressure plate) has poor grade seals and was never designed to cope with the pressure from a twin plate clutch set up.
2) The thrust bearing has a curved bearing face which presses into the pressure plate fingers, the bearing diameter is too small / or the fingers are too short (depends how you want to look at it), but the effect is that the tips of the fingers wear thin and break off.... hence erratic clutch operation which eventually fails altogether.
3) Whilst in operation the butterfly springs on the clutch assembly wear away the fly wheel and create grooves in its surface. Replacing a clutch assembly generally means that the fly wheel has to be skimmed (at least if the grooves are evident they should be removed).
4) The friction plates are actually the ones out of a Sierra Cosworth. Whilst there is nothing wrong with this, it does point out that this whole clutch assembly is a mix n match of parts that were never specifically designed for the S6 application. And it does appear NOTHING has been done to rectify this despite the number of premature failures.
TVRCraft have sourced competition dual plate clutch assemblies that DO work. They built a test rig in order to replicate the TVR installation and bench tested it before fitting it into a car. The clutch is smaller and made of lighter weight materials than the standard. The friction plate is sintered metal and will way out last the standard plates by 10's of K miles. This installation does require modifications to the existing bell housing to fit the purpose built hydraulic slave cylinder and the fly wheel requires modification to fit the smaller diameter clutch assembly. This whole Clutch assembly can be fitted for a few hundered quid more than a standard clutch. It also fits the Cerbera.
The only down side is that you will have to go all the way to Salisbury to get it fitted.... but you won't have to return 20K ish miles later, or less in some cases!
I dunno it just makes total common sense to me.
All sounds great. A couple of points:
- Not many TVR owners will keep their cars for more than 'another' 20,000 miles, hence won't reap the full benefit of a longer lasting clutch
- With a less sympathetic driver (many like to wheelspin/burn off from the lights) how much longer will the friction material last? 50,000 miles maybe?
- How many TVRs have this enhanced solution fitted and how long did it last in those cars.
- How much more does it actually cost (= is it worth it considering my first point).
I not knocking anyone, but I suspect many people will want to know these things before solutions like this make it big time. Certainly if I were sat around waiting for TVR to pay a bill so AP would supply parts I'd be looking elsewhere and this is the kind of thing I'd be looking for. But many won't, esp. if they have the TVR extended warranty (like me - oops).
Edited by targarama on Saturday 9th September 09:47
targarama said:
All sounds great. A couple of points:
- Not many TVR owners will keep their cars for more than 'another' 20,000 miles, hence won't reap the full benefit of a longer lasting clutch
Frankly I find this attitude irrisponsible, for the little cost of a few hundred quid the problem can be dead and buried. Personnaly I have a conscience that what I sell on is not going to break down in the next few hundred miles. I know what questions I would be asking if I was looking at another S6 purchase.
targarama said:
- With a less sympathetic driver (many like to wheelspin/burn off from the lights) how much longer will the friction material last? 50,000 miles maybe?
- How many TVRs have this enhanced solution fitted and how long did it last in those cars.
- How much more does it actually cost (= is it worth it considering my first point).
- The friction material is sintered metal and is designed to take such abuse, this is exactly what it is designed for.... drop clutch starts. I think you are looking at more like 100K miles plus.
- One car has it fitted as has mine but mine is not yet running. But this point is irrellevent in comparison to the standard clutch which has proven to last circa 20K ish repeatedly.
- Its up to you to decide if its worth it. If you possess sound engineering common sense then one can see that yes it is. If you don't understand the engineering concepts then its your gamble, but you could do worse by getting another standard one fitted.
targarama said:
I not knocking anyone, but I suspect many people will want to know these things before solutions like this make it big time. Certainly if I were sat around waiting for TVR to pay a bill so AP would supply parts I'd be looking elsewhere and this is the kind of thing I'd be looking for. But many won't, esp. if they have the TVR extended warranty (like me - oops).
Knock away all you like....I am merely bringing to the forum members and owners attention that there is an engineered solution using tried and proven technology and parts. If there are those out there that wish to drive around with heads in sand thats their choice. I gain nothing by posting the info I do, its merely to help others source an alternative to the less than adequate factory parts. Simple as that. All these answers can be gained by picking up a phone. I am sure the many people on here are aware of that...
If it makes sense to folk to have their car sat around waiting weeks on in whilst TVR eventually get around to paying AP their due bills, simply because they have a warranty.... (well enough said on the subject of warranty value).
G
Edited by yzf1070 on Saturday 9th September 15:20
NCE 61 said:
Yep..... this is a refurbished standard clutch with modified standard thrust. Whilst it does not address all of the issues it is indeed an alternative supply to waiting ages for the factory items. Its a good photo, you can see the butterfly springs that wear grooves in the fly wheel. Not what I would choose, but will suit many peoples pocket.
Edited by yzf1070 on Saturday 9th September 15:18
yzf1070 said:
NCE 61 said:
Yep..... this is a refurbished standard clutch with modified standard thrust. Whilst it does not address all of the issues it is indeed an alternative supply to waiting ages for the factory items. Its a good photo, you can see the butterfly springs that wear grooves in the fly wheel. Not what I would choose, but will suit many peoples pocket.
Edited by yzf1070 on Saturday 9th September 15:18
It's slightly better than that Yzf .. the butterlfy springs are now gone so no flywheel wear issues, the slave cylinder is a bespoke job not a like for like TVR clone, the release bearing and brand new bespoke diaphragm are designed to work together unlike the std offering. It's more than just an alternative, it's a well thought out alternative. On sale in about 3 weeks time I believe.
There's also a completely new clutch going to be offered alongsode the redesigned std tvr version which is lighter, runs cooler and incorportaes all the other benefits mentioned above.
trackcar said:
It's slightly better than that Yzf .. the butterlfy springs are now gone so no flywheel wear issues, the slave cylinder is a bespoke job not a like for like TVR clone, the release bearing and brand new bespoke diaphragm are designed to work together unlike the std offering. It's more than just an alternative, it's a well thought out alternative. On sale in about 3 weeks time I believe.
There's also a completely new clutch going to be offered alongside the redesigned std tvr version which is lighter, runs cooler and incorportaes all the other benefits mentioned above.
Joolz my apologies I stand corrected. This is indeed excellent news for all owners. Its exactly what we all need, good sources of alternative reliable parts. The current indie climate AJP8 and S6 is far better than what it was 2 years ago and I believe that if owners support the indies it can only get better for us all. There should be no need to have to wait weeks on end for such like parts from the factory.
G
SOOPERB photos RR
This is exactly what I have been trying to put over, but did not have the pics to show. In these photo's you can clearly see that the thrust bearing is JUST about touching the tips of the fingers. This wears out the tips and also puts excessive load/strain on the finger fulcrum and hence they break...
Very good depiction indeed, top man. This clutch was never designed to take the loads imposed upon it in everyday use in the S6.
If you want to extend the life of your standard clutch DO NOT ride the clutch when stood still. Keep the car out of gear and foot off the clutch. Engage clutch and gear only when you want to pull away. Better still replace the pile of crap with a properly engineered solution.
OK I'm off my
This is exactly what I have been trying to put over, but did not have the pics to show. In these photo's you can clearly see that the thrust bearing is JUST about touching the tips of the fingers. This wears out the tips and also puts excessive load/strain on the finger fulcrum and hence they break...
Very good depiction indeed, top man. This clutch was never designed to take the loads imposed upon it in everyday use in the S6.
If you want to extend the life of your standard clutch DO NOT ride the clutch when stood still. Keep the car out of gear and foot off the clutch. Engage clutch and gear only when you want to pull away. Better still replace the pile of crap with a properly engineered solution.
OK I'm off my
Here's a dilemma! The seals leaking on my cylinder (although not badly), can anyone tell me if the replacement Autocraft one can be fitted with the original clutch or should I bite the bullet now and replace the clutch aswell? The car is a 2000 but has only done 2k miles so there's some life left in the clutch yet. What do you think?
tuscanx1 said:
Here's a dilemma! The seals leaking on my cylinder (although not badly), can anyone tell me if the replacement Autocraft one can be fitted with the original clutch or should I bite the bullet now and replace the clutch aswell? The car is a 2000 but has only done 2k miles so there's some life left in the clutch yet. What do you think?
To be honest I dont know if Crafts new slave thrust assembly will mate up with the standard pressure plate, you would be best to speak with Dave Davies at Craft on that. However I would guess that the Clever Trevor thrust assembly will mate up with the standard pressure plate, certainly looking at the photo's that would seem to be the case. If your original clutch has only done 2k miles it would seem pointless to change it if it is in fine working order. You will likely get upto the 20K miles out of it anyway. IMHO that would be the time to change out the whole assembly for the improved components.
Best off picking up the phone and speaking to both indies. Don't be shy these guys are here to help us, after all its their business and interest to do exactly that..... help us.
Good luck
G
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