RE: Porsche takes control of VW
Tuesday 14th November 2006
Porsche: in control at VWA boardroom coup at VW, arguably the most politically-riven company in the industry, has seen the head of former CEO Bernd Pischetsrieder roll.
Porsche takes control of VW
Porsche's grandson on top in boardroom coup
Porsche: in control at VW
Instead Ferdinand Piëch, the key shareholder and man who also runs Porsche -- and whose grandfather designed the Beetle for Hitler and started Porsche -- is now back in the driving seat.
He has appointed close ally and current head of Audi, Martin Winterkorn, to run the group. Piëch ran VW in the 1990s when it was a bit of a basket case but he clawed the company back to its current dominance.
Widely regarded as the most political of car companies -- it's structured so that its groups are often in competition with each other, both internally and in the showroom -- VW seems now to be more than ever under the control of Porsche, which owns a controlling stake.
We can expect to see a tightening of the already close relationship between Porsche and VW, with the latter's production facilities becoming more useful to Porsche as it ramps up its volumes. There'll also be more sharing of engineering resources. Other consequences will doubtless reveal themselves over time...
Related stories
Discussion
I'm in two minds about this.
On one hand, I can see a future where Porsche - a company who, Cayenne aside, have kept their heritage firmly at the centre of their business when planning new cars - endow the various sub-companies of the sprawling VAG with a sense of individuality. Audis all with 4WD and/or 5-cylinder engines, cheap VWs, bespoke Bentleys, Bugattis actually built in the spirit of the marque rather than VAG vanity projects with a random badge stuck on the nose, Seats properly designed to rival Alfa Romeo, properly quirky Skodas to take on Citroen etc.
On the other hand, I see the worst example of car homogeneity, where everything they own becomes a shallow 'brand', a byword for a number of token features and pathetic styling licks attached to a number of platforms that several marques share, but all drive the same.
I sincerely hope it's not the latter. The Cayenne is already a Porsche version of the Toureg, which has an Audi sister in the Q7, and no doubt some LA rappers will want a Bentley version, chin-strokers will fancy a Skoda off-roda and so on.
And then car marques will be mere 'brands' interchangeable with every other designer label out there. Heck, why don't they buy up Adidas and turn out blinged-up platform-sharers priced at the chav market?
This one could go either way.
On one hand, I can see a future where Porsche - a company who, Cayenne aside, have kept their heritage firmly at the centre of their business when planning new cars - endow the various sub-companies of the sprawling VAG with a sense of individuality. Audis all with 4WD and/or 5-cylinder engines, cheap VWs, bespoke Bentleys, Bugattis actually built in the spirit of the marque rather than VAG vanity projects with a random badge stuck on the nose, Seats properly designed to rival Alfa Romeo, properly quirky Skodas to take on Citroen etc.
On the other hand, I see the worst example of car homogeneity, where everything they own becomes a shallow 'brand', a byword for a number of token features and pathetic styling licks attached to a number of platforms that several marques share, but all drive the same.
I sincerely hope it's not the latter. The Cayenne is already a Porsche version of the Toureg, which has an Audi sister in the Q7, and no doubt some LA rappers will want a Bentley version, chin-strokers will fancy a Skoda off-roda and so on.
And then car marques will be mere 'brands' interchangeable with every other designer label out there. Heck, why don't they buy up Adidas and turn out blinged-up platform-sharers priced at the chav market?
This one could go either way.
Twincam16 said:
I'm in two minds about this.
On one hand, I can see a future where Porsche - a company who, Cayenne aside, have kept their heritage firmly at the centre of their business when planning new cars - endow the various sub-companies of the sprawling VAG with a sense of individuality. Audis all with 4WD and/or 5-cylinder engines, cheap VWs, bespoke Bentleys, Bugattis actually built in the spirit of the marque rather than VAG vanity projects with a random badge stuck on the nose, Seats properly designed to rival Alfa Romeo, properly quirky Skodas to take on Citroen etc.
On the other hand, I see the worst example of car homogeneity, where everything they own becomes a shallow 'brand', a byword for a number of token features and pathetic styling licks attached to a number of platforms that several marques share, but all drive the same.
I sincerely hope it's not the latter. The Cayenne is already a Porsche version of the Toureg, which has an Audi sister in the Q7, and no doubt some LA rappers will want a Bentley version, chin-strokers will fancy a Skoda off-roda and so on.
And then car marques will be mere 'brands' interchangeable with every other designer label out there. Heck, why don't they buy up Adidas and turn out blinged-up platform-sharers priced at the chav market?
This one could go either way.
On one hand, I can see a future where Porsche - a company who, Cayenne aside, have kept their heritage firmly at the centre of their business when planning new cars - endow the various sub-companies of the sprawling VAG with a sense of individuality. Audis all with 4WD and/or 5-cylinder engines, cheap VWs, bespoke Bentleys, Bugattis actually built in the spirit of the marque rather than VAG vanity projects with a random badge stuck on the nose, Seats properly designed to rival Alfa Romeo, properly quirky Skodas to take on Citroen etc.
On the other hand, I see the worst example of car homogeneity, where everything they own becomes a shallow 'brand', a byword for a number of token features and pathetic styling licks attached to a number of platforms that several marques share, but all drive the same.
I sincerely hope it's not the latter. The Cayenne is already a Porsche version of the Toureg, which has an Audi sister in the Q7, and no doubt some LA rappers will want a Bentley version, chin-strokers will fancy a Skoda off-roda and so on.
And then car marques will be mere 'brands' interchangeable with every other designer label out there. Heck, why don't they buy up Adidas and turn out blinged-up platform-sharers priced at the chav market?
This one could go either way.
I'd be just about willing to bet money on it going the latter way.
On the plus side the new Beetle might in fact be a rebadged 997 with a flowervase instead of a stopwatch
.
Guys I think it's more that Audi has overstepped the mark, and Bugatti too with the Veyron! The Carrera GT should rightly be the flagship - the jewel in the Porsche crown... not the Veyron.
I believe that Porsche want Bugatti to be a styling house and bespoke builder, Bentley to return to being a bespoke coachbuilder to the super rich like Mulliner Park-Ward were, as opposed to launching a small afforable sports car in 2008(cancelled by Piech already apparently), and Audi to making sensible, but hugely powereful cars, like the RS4, instead of trying to kick Porsche's nuts in with the R8!
I agree with this move, but make no mistake, I think Porsche will hold the reigns, not VW, so we will not see diesel Porsches soon!
Andrew Dryburgh.
I believe that Porsche want Bugatti to be a styling house and bespoke builder, Bentley to return to being a bespoke coachbuilder to the super rich like Mulliner Park-Ward were, as opposed to launching a small afforable sports car in 2008(cancelled by Piech already apparently), and Audi to making sensible, but hugely powereful cars, like the RS4, instead of trying to kick Porsche's nuts in with the R8!
I agree with this move, but make no mistake, I think Porsche will hold the reigns, not VW, so we will not see diesel Porsches soon!
Andrew Dryburgh.
So far i think Audi/VW has done a good job of handling the various marques under their banner,sure their is some homogenity,but i dont mind to be honest ,it doesnt really matter with the non prestigious brands ,after all who gives a damn if a seat ibiza/skoda fabia etc is a re badged golf,however VW should give the prestious marques more indiviual identity. Im quite disappointed that the gallardo has to share its V10 with the S8 and the forthcomin R8(imho it should have a bugatti badge),likewise the W12 should be the preserve of bentleys and not upmarket big audis. Its not fair!! porsche doesnt have to share its flat six with any other brand!!!Likewise u wont find the carrera GT V10 in Audi. And now with Porsche in control of VW,u can be sure that any supercar in the VW/audi family which is a direct competiter or seen as a threat to the 911, will disappear. The gallardo,has sparred with the 911 in numerous magazine road tests,and will most deffinatley been seen as a threat, as will the R8. Not only that,but plans to diversify bugatti (i heard a bi-turbo VR6 engine baby bugatti was in plan for prodution accordin to CAR)might be put on hold due to the fact its now in the same market as high proformance 911s and the carrera GT
Piech runs Porsche!!! since when? He's a member of the executive commitee or whatever it's called, nothing more nothing less. None of the family (as piech is) have a hand in controlling Porsche and have'nt since the early seventies (the reason Piech went to Audi! among other things).
Though it's a good conspiracy theory for a no competition clause at Porsche for as long as Audi race at LeMans !
Though it's a good conspiracy theory for a no competition clause at Porsche for as long as Audi race at LeMans !
First thing i saw when reading this article was the picture of that ugly Cayenne. Does this mean that when there's an article about Porsche, the first option for the photo is the stupid 4x4?? Also, and more importantly, does this mean that when people think of Porsche, does the 4x4 spring to mind first over the great line of sports cars??
mafioso said:
First thing i saw when reading this article was the picture of that ugly Cayenne. Does this mean that when there's an article about Porsche, the first option for the photo is the stupid 4x4?? Also, and more importantly, does this mean that when people think of Porsche, does the 4x4 spring to mind first over the great line of sports cars??
might have somthing to do with the VW / Porsche tie in on the Cayenne/Toureg, just a guess really as the article is about the Porsche / VW relationship.
The Porsche and Piech families have always been really close knit. There has been rivalry, argument and the odd tiff; but ultimately, blood is thicker than water; and current shenanigans show that money is thicker than blood. I don't think Piech ever really left VW in any event. Though apparently a charming, aristocratic and urbane frontman, as the Quandts yanked Pischetsrieder's strings, I think Piech did, too. So I think at VW it'll be 'hello to the new boss - same as the old boss'.
Edited by loach on Wednesday 15th November 12:24
midnightDriver said:
u can be sure that any supercar in the VW/audi family which is a direct competiter or seen as a threat to the 911, will disappear. The gallardo,has sparred with the 911 in numerous magazine road tests,and will most deffinatley been seen as a threat,
Yeah, I wonder how they'll handle that. Having said that, I think the 997 Turbo is sufficiently different to the Gallardo for them to coexist - V10 versus flat six, N/A versus turbochargers, rear-engine versus mid-engine, 2+2 versus 2-seater. Similar performance but very different driving experiences I'll wager. And as for the styling - well, different kinds of people buy Lamborghinis and Porsches for different reasons. The only situation in which Lamborghini might find themselves in direct competition is if the mooted 4.2 Audi V8-engined RWD £60-80k Gallardo turned up slap-bang in the 997 Carrera market.
However, I'm tired of the 'overlaps' at VAG. Why should a Bentley have to share an engine with an Audi and a VW? Why do we have a 'premium' off-roader with three very different badges on it when the Cayenne/Toureg/Q7 are all really aimed at the same market? Why do we have a plethora of supercars from Bugatti, Audi and, no doubt, Porsche, with the same mechanics and layout?
If I were in charge, I'd leave the platform-sharing to the lesser marques - VW, Skoda and Seat. VW would be the bread-and-butter with the odd GTI, Skoda would be the quirky styling, handy gadgets and all-round good value, and Seat would be the GTI version of everything with proper Alfa-inspired Latinate styling.
Audi would represent only the top-end of all that. The boss ended up in a 'Gerald Ratner' moment the other year when he said that Audis were overpriced VWs and he didn't know why people bought them. An Audi should offer the build quality of a VW, the technology of a Skoda and the sportiness of a Seat. Miss out on any one of those and it might as well not have the four rings.
Bentley would remain as a more relaxed alternative to Aston Martin as it always was. However, their engines should be unique. The very existence of the VW Phaeton defies logic and devalues Bentley. No mid-engined supercars though, and I can't see the Bentley name working in the AMV8 market either TBH.
Porsche - as they were, only ditch the Cayenne - the Q7 does everything just as well, has the same presence in the same market and looks a lot better too. A few Porsche engines and an 'engineering by Porsche' badge would work, but Cayenne sales are falling in the USA so it's best to cut and run.
Also - I think that any supercar project should carry the Porsche name in the spirit of the 917. Audi had no Le Mans heritage until a few years ago, and the Bugatti Veyron, whilst it's an awesome piece of kits, is just a misplaced radiator grille on a car that could just as easily been the all-conquering replacement for the Porsche Carrera GT. A smooth nose, round headlamps and a Porsche badge would have suited the Veyron better too.
Lamborghini - fantastic, leave well alone but don't resort to Countach LP500/Diablo GT-style bodykits or the rot starts to set in. Lamborghini survives on being totally fresh and pure.
Bugatti - a problem. They can't really go for the wholesale supercar market without treading on Porsche and Lamborghini toes. They can't really go for the Maybach/Rolls-Royce market they dominated in the '30s because Bentley do that, and to keep them on as some kind of styling house, offering overpriced keyrings and kitchen equipment when they haven't got anything on the production line would have Ettore spinning in his grave.
I think the best thing for Bugatti would be to offer the world's fastest luxury saloons. Think Bentley with Italian histrionics, but performance that blows the likes of the Maserati Quattroporte into the weeds. The key Bugatti styling features - the beautiful horseshoe grille, the long, straight bonnet at the front, the art-deco curves - work best on luxury saloons rather than mid-engined supercars. If they offered the world's greatest, fastest, best-handling yet utterly dignified saloon cars bar none - rather than jostling for position with Lamborghini and Porsche and losing the company tonnes of money - they'd find their niche.
scotty_917 said:
Can't knock the man...has engineered some blinders...Porsche 911 (original) engine, 917 Le Mans Winner and early turbo's, Audi quattro (original) as well as having the balls to put something like the Veyron into production...good luck to him.
I'm not knocking him, I just feel that the use of the Bugatti marque was inappropriate. I get the idea they wanted to build the ultimate VAG supercar, then found a badge for it. It would have made more sense as a Porsche.
Twincam16 said:
I'm not knocking him, I just feel that the use of the Bugatti marque was inappropriate. I get the idea they wanted to build the ultimate VAG supercar, then found a badge for it. It would have made more sense as a Porsche.
Have to disagree there. My view of the Porsche heritage is that it is all about the racing, and that the cars benefit from that in terms of longevity and reliability.
Could you explain how you see a car like the Veyron fitting in anywhere in the range like that? PS Nobody is allowed to mention the Cayenne. Ever.
randlemarcus said:
Could you explain how you see a car like the Veyron fitting in anywhere in the range like that?
Well I've always seen it as a kind of super-Carrera GT, rather than a Bugatti. Bugatti used to be about Grand Prix cars, then fast luxury saloons and vintage tourers. The EB110 was a fantastic supercar (actually, I'll admit, my all-time favourite alongside the Aston Martin DB4GT Zagato), but crucially, it was raced in the tradition of the Type 35 and all the other road-going Le Mans cars.
The Carrera GT was an aborted Le Mans racer project that became a road car and aimed to be Porsche's Enzo - the ultimate Porsche supercar. It was never raced so, as a road car, it's only ever been about beating the likes of the Enzo. A Porsche-badged Veyron would have settled the Porsche-Ferrari supercar battle for good.
Am I the only one who thinks the Bugatti grille looks incongruous on the nose of the Veyron? Nice grilles are for front-engined luxury saloons, surely, especially when the rest of the car looks like a big Elise.
Twincam16 said:
However, I'm tired of the 'overlaps' at VAG. Why should a Bentley have to share an engine with an Audi and a VW? Why do we have a 'premium' off-roader with three very different badges on it when the Cayenne/Toureg/Q7 are all really aimed at the same market? Why do we have a plethora of supercars from Bugatti, Audi and, no doubt, Porsche, with the same mechanics and layout?
Why? Profit - plain and simple. Development costs are shared and thereby kept down and the profits, through car sales, are plowed back into the group as a whole. The uneducated think that they are test driving 3 different cars by 3 different makers, whereas in reality the cars are, badging aside, almost identical and their best option would be to buy the cheapest car and not necessarily the premium brand badge.
It's just Porsche's next step to worldwide domination.
randlemarcus said:
Have to disagree there. My view of the Porsche heritage is that it is all about the racing, and that the cars benefit from that in terms of longevity and reliability.
I won't disagree with you on the fact that by racing their cars, as a by-product, Porsche road cars benefit from this. However, would you not say that Porsche races because it manufactures road cars and not vice-versa? Let us not forget that two of their current race cars, GT3 RSR and Cup are developments of a 40+ year old roadcar design which, for the track at least, has longstanding design issues (only truly mastered through years of development).
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