ONE OF THE BEST!
Discussion
Such an overworked word concours. I've looked at the photos on Ebay and yes, in the sense that concours is "nice and shiny" it is that, but start looking as a concours judge and this car need quite a lot of money spent to get it anywhere near concours. Water bottle, jack, new tyres (radials weren't around and incidentally I wouldn't like to manoeuvre the car for parking on radials!) tool kit (damned hard to find the correct bits now) new exhaust (stainless isn't original), batteries, radiator and fan, plug caps (should be big ones) and I could go on, but yes, I agree that it looks a very nice car and if the engine was rebuilt by Rob Beere it will be great. My worry is that it is years since the car was rebuilt and it has never been driven over about 30mph nor any distance (you'd know because the enamel would have come off of the manifolds)so it might need some sympathetic recommisssioning too. One nice touch is the correct radiator hose with bellows though.
Don't get me wrong, it looks a great car but for me too much a chocolate box - it can't really be used without it losing a shed load of money. If I want to be really picky as a concours judge, where did he get the 1950 air to pump up the tyres? Sadly concours has gone so far beyond the difinition of "as it left the factory" that we really do have to nit pick to differentiate sometimes.
Don't get me wrong, it looks a great car but for me too much a chocolate box - it can't really be used without it losing a shed load of money. If I want to be really picky as a concours judge, where did he get the 1950 air to pump up the tyres? Sadly concours has gone so far beyond the difinition of "as it left the factory" that we really do have to nit pick to differentiate sometimes.
lowdrag said:
Such an overworked word concours. I've looked at the photos on Ebay and yes, in the sense that concours is "nice and shiny" it is that, but start looking as a concours judge and this car need quite a lot of money spent to get it anywhere near concours. Water bottle, jack, new tyres (radials weren't around and incidentally I wouldn't like to manoeuvre the car for parking on radials!) tool kit (damned hard to find the correct bits now) new exhaust (stainless isn't original), batteries, radiator and fan, plug caps (should be big ones) and I could go on, but yes, I agree that it looks a very nice car and if the engine was rebuilt by Rob Beere it will be great. My worry is that it is years since the car was rebuilt and it has never been driven over about 30mph nor any distance (you'd know because the enamel would have come off of the manifolds)so it might need some sympathetic recommisssioning too. One nice touch is the correct radiator hose with bellows though.
Don't get me wrong, it looks a great car but for me too much a chocolate box - it can't really be used without it losing a shed load of money. If I want to be really picky as a concours judge, where did he get the 1950 air to pump up the tyres? Sadly concours has gone so far beyond the difinition of "as it left the factory" that we really do have to nit pick to differentiate sometimes.
Don't get me wrong, it looks a great car but for me too much a chocolate box - it can't really be used without it losing a shed load of money. If I want to be really picky as a concours judge, where did he get the 1950 air to pump up the tyres? Sadly concours has gone so far beyond the difinition of "as it left the factory" that we really do have to nit pick to differentiate sometimes.
This is where you and I would probably fall out.
Cars, all of them, are forms of transport and as such were made to be driven.
Concours judges, and I used to be one of them, belong in a museum; a museum of cars no doubt, but a museum just the same.
I am an engineer, and when I designed anything that functioned it was not with the intention of it being in a museum or under the scrutiny of a pedantic enthusiast who in reality cared little for the integrity of the design, but more for the simple fact that it was perfectly original; a desperately flawed principle in engineering terms, as it leaves no room for modification and hence improvement.
This car is desperately beautiful: the exhaust will be of a far superior material and design to the original which was, quite frankly awful.
The radial tyres will utterly transform the handling of this car, particularly if it is to be driven on today's roads and in today's traffic: where on earth did you get the notion that they would increase the steering effort? The rolling friction of a radial tyre is much less than a crossply and actually decreases the steering effort at slow speeds.
I will blow my own trumpet a bit and say that like Rob Beere if I had built the engine it would be a damned site better thatn the original too!!
Concours judges?? I would sentence them all to a year in my workshop in a pair of overalls and five, twelve hour shifts a week. They could then really claim they knew about cars!!
But here we don't fall out at all! I drive my cars, I love patina, I love to see cars used, but when you use the word concours everything changes. Do you remember the wonderful moment when the Aston Martin Owners Club had to choose between two cars which finished in the concours final? They chose the car where the owner had cleaned the INSIDE of the exhaust because there as nothing else between the cars. I don't criticise the XK120 you show here - I find according to all I read on Ebay that it is wonderful - but as a concours judge the question arrives as to whether the hood is of the correct material with the correct marking, the correct type of material, and so on. I don't like concours, but I have been asked to judge them purely because of my knowledge of Jaguars. For me, I prefer to judge cars that are original, not pastiches of their original entity, but I'm sorry, when you mention the word concours in todays sense it rings alarm bells. Not one car that wins today is "original". Do you remember when it transpired that the cars at Pebble Beach weren't road legal? The suspension nuts were hand tightened so they didn't crack the paintwork. So we, in this sense, arrive at a car which is "concours" but is illegal to drive. I've been to Laguna Seca but the worst I've seen is at the Barrett Jackson auctions in Phoenix where they put mirrors under their cars and even the differential is chromed! To finish, I find that perhaps - and I say perhaps without seeing the car - this car is worth the money, but in terms of "concours" it surely isn't. It is a long way from that as far as a Jaguar judge is concerned given the current state of the concours market.
lowdrag said:
But here we don't fall out at all! I drive my cars, I love patina, I love to see cars used, but when you use the word concours everything changes. Do you remember the wonderful moment when the Aston Martin Owners Club had to choose between two cars which finished in the concours final? They chose the car where the owner had cleaned the INSIDE of the exhaust because there as nothing else between the cars. I don't criticise the XK120 you show here - I find according to all I read on Ebay that it is wonderful - but as a concours judge the question arrives as to whether the hood is of the correct material with the correct marking, the correct type of material, and so on. I don't like concours, but I have been asked to judge them purely because of my knowledge of Jaguars. For me, I prefer to judge cars that are original, not pastiches of their original entity, but I'm sorry, when you mention the word concours in todays sense it rings alarm bells. Not one car that wins today is "original". Do you remember when it transpired that the cars at Pebble Beach weren't road legal? The suspension nuts were hand tightened so they didn't crack the paintwork. So we, in this sense, arrive at a car which is "concours" but is illegal to drive. I've been to Laguna Seca but the worst I've seen is at the Barrett Jackson auctions in Phoenix where they put mirrors under their cars and even the differential is chromed! To finish, I find that perhaps - and I say perhaps without seeing the car - this car is worth the money, but in terms of "concours" it surely isn't. It is a long way from that as far as a Jaguar judge is concerned given the current state of the concours market.
Sorry ld, I didn't actually mean we would fall out; it's just that the whole concour thing raises my hackles just because of the experience I've had.
Of course I tend to utterly ignore anything a dealer says and make my decision on a car based on what I see.
I just love the look of that car and in particular the colour scheme, it is one of my favourites.
The final straw for me with judging was at Doune one year many moons ago and four of us were viewing the MK2s and Es.
I guy from London, and I won't mention his name because it would be rude, had trailered his 3.8 roadster all the way up and had it sitting in line in the field.
It looked utterly pristine, but as I examined the engine I noticed vertical marks on the exhaust side of the block and pointed out he had a leak that incredibly enough was the head gasket!!
I asked him to fire it up and he said he couldn't because it was blowing steam out oif the exhaust and that was why he had transported it up.
The other three overruled me and gave him first prize; I couldn't believe it!!!
That was my last judging, just stupid nonsense that I refuse to get involved in!
I just love to work on and drive the things, that is the real fun!
It is a pity they are so expensive now, particularly the XKs.
jith said:
This is where you and I would probably fall out.
Cars, all of them, are forms of transport and as such were made to be driven.
Concours judges, and I used to be one of them, belong in a museum; a museum of cars no doubt, but a museum just the same.
Cars, all of them, are forms of transport and as such were made to be driven.
Concours judges, and I used to be one of them, belong in a museum; a museum of cars no doubt, but a museum just the same.
Definitely. I would happily scarifice a litle originality for the thing to be used in the way its maker intended. For someone who wants a well sorted car to drive then this would be perfect. So you wont get the big red rosette off the man in tweed, at least you'll have the satisfaction of knowing it isn't a puffy garage queen.
As for the seller's description of concours, I would bet it wouldn't take much to get it up to that standard anyway.
lowdrag said:
Not one car that wins today is "original". Do you remember when it transpired that the cars at Pebble Beach weren't road legal? The suspension nuts were hand tightened so they didn't crack the paintwork. So we, in this sense, arrive at a car which is "concours" but is illegal to drive. I've been to Laguna Seca but the worst I've seen is at the Barrett Jackson auctions in Phoenix where they put mirrors under their cars and even the differential is chromed!
Didn't the judges at Pebble Beach change their approach so cars hat were original would win and not ones that turned up with the metalwork looking like a mirror? I'm sure a 275 Ferrari won one year because it hadn't changed since the 1970s, something which the interior and engine bay backed up.
I haven't been for a few years but I have it in my mind that there are different classes nowadays at Pebble Beach. I dug out this photo I took a year back at the Barratt Jackson at Phoenix to give you an idea of what they like over there. Gimme my tatty old E type with rusty wires and patina'd interior any day! Especially the memories of 120,000 miles together - that's worth more than anything.
Jith,
I have to say I share your sentiments re concours judges.
I enjoy looking at most all cars at shows but really have no time for the 'trailer queen' brigade.
I was told of a chap that should he be out on one of the rare ocassions his car sees road use and it rains, he stops, and will leave the car there until the road is dry.
Now that is stupid to the extreme.
I purchased my car to drive come rain or shine, in fact any excuse to take the old girl for a blast, and I'm not talking about the boss - I mean wife.
Phil
79 de Tomaso Longchamp GTS
I have to say I share your sentiments re concours judges.
I enjoy looking at most all cars at shows but really have no time for the 'trailer queen' brigade.
I was told of a chap that should he be out on one of the rare ocassions his car sees road use and it rains, he stops, and will leave the car there until the road is dry.
Now that is stupid to the extreme.
I purchased my car to drive come rain or shine, in fact any excuse to take the old girl for a blast, and I'm not talking about the boss - I mean wife.
Phil
79 de Tomaso Longchamp GTS
Certainly not a concours car, but you know what? Screw concours cars.
If the people who developed that car, who drove it bodyless around a dreary test track, who slaved over the dynamics, the looks, the engineering, the interior and engine were told 'Ooooh, sorry, no you can't take this out in the rain, or in fact, anytime at all, in case you scratch it's spare wheels spokes or something' I do believe that insults would be traded
The car the OP shows is pretty much perfect, damn, those lines are amazing
Thanks for the pics, thank you indeed!
If the people who developed that car, who drove it bodyless around a dreary test track, who slaved over the dynamics, the looks, the engineering, the interior and engine were told 'Ooooh, sorry, no you can't take this out in the rain, or in fact, anytime at all, in case you scratch it's spare wheels spokes or something' I do believe that insults would be traded
The car the OP shows is pretty much perfect, damn, those lines are amazing
Thanks for the pics, thank you indeed!
XK120 with full spats... firmly rooted in my top-ten of all cars, along with a D-Type and a Cunningham Lightweight E.dinkel said:
What a luverly Jag that is. I love those, especially with the wheels closed.
Just you wait 'till Tom finishes his XK120 then! It will be as nice as the one above and a great car to drive.
Yesterday I saw his new project: a rare XK140 with factory fitted C-type head and overdrive. And it's all original, no fake badges on the head!
And about concours: it is bollox! People who trailer their car to shows just so it doesn't get dirty don't understand what a car is all about IMO. Cleaning the inside of an exhaust should be followed by a visit to a shrink.
klassiekerrally said:
And about concours: it is bollox! People who trailer their car to shows just so it doesn't get dirty don't understand what a car is all about IMO. Cleaning the inside of an exhaust should be followed by a visit to a shrink.
Exactly. Anyone who does that, must be compensating for the fact that they probably couldn't drive it in the way its maker intended. It's a sports car....get it used!
I recall reading a note on the old Benson and Hedges concours (I think) that said "in the event of a tie the engine oil will be dipped and checked for level and cleanliness".
Luckily it's virtually impossible to get my car anywhere near concours condition (too many unavailable parts, not enough value to have them made specially) so it's not a temptation. I'd like my car to be cleaner, and I like reading magazine articles showing a really clean restoration job, but I wouldn't really want it to be mine.
Luckily it's virtually impossible to get my car anywhere near concours condition (too many unavailable parts, not enough value to have them made specially) so it's not a temptation. I'd like my car to be cleaner, and I like reading magazine articles showing a really clean restoration job, but I wouldn't really want it to be mine.
lowdrag said:
I haven't been for a few years but I have it in my mind that there are different classes nowadays at Pebble Beach. I dug out this photo I took a year back at the Barratt Jackson at Phoenix to give you an idea of what they like over there. Gimme my tatty old E type with rusty wires and patina'd interior any day! Especially the memories of 120,000 miles together - that's worth more than anything.
That picture made me think - that's not under my car.... so checked and erm well it is sort of but my car is smart enough but very much useable and modified to go better with great patina.
I want a great car that drives well and I don't reallt care that much about what it looks like within reason... spot the racing driver
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