Hydraulic Tappets that have been Adjusted ?!!?!?!

[Mr Plow]

Help needed?

I rebuilt the top engine of my engine about 300 miles ago. When the engine was installed the tappets were adjusted.
I believe the engine has hydraulic tappets, so should not have been be adjusted, now the tappets are a bit noisy.
What do I need to do to correct the situation?

[GreenV8S]

Depends whether they were set correctly. You may find you have adjustable rockers with hydraulic follower, the rockers are adjusted to set the preload on the followers. But if the person who adjusted them left a gap (as you would with solid lifters) then you'll have no pre-load, the lifters won't be able to do any adjustment and the valve clearances will soon go to pot. It's quite important to make sure you know whether you actually have hydraulic lifters, because if you have solid lifters and try to set a preload as if they were hydraulic, the valves won't close properly and you'll knacker things pretty quickly.

[clarenceboddiger]

Sorry, I cant answer your question,I have had a good look on the following site which has some good info (pdf s) on the engine but it appears only to warn not to adjust for any reason, you may find something if you go through them all, I suppose they're worth having for ref on other jobs.
www.fordscorpio.co.uk/CologneV6manual.htm

[tvrgit]

Since your car is an S3C, chances are they were hydraulic - Ford (mainly) did hydraulics with cats, non-hydraulic without. That's not to say that TVR did the same of course.... As GreenV8S says, though, you can't tell just by looking at the rockers - the hydraulic bits are against the camshaft deep in the vee of the heads.

I had the same problem as you - I set them but didn't know they were hydraulic, and had to fix it. I had a sheet that explained exactly how to do it, I found it just the other day, in a really odd place, and now I can't remember where it was...

Basically what you have to do is turn the engine until both valves on No 1 cylinder are closed (ie cylinder 5 is "on the rock" ) and open up the adjusters and then tighten them until you have only j u s t removed all the clearance - then wind them in by 1 or 2 full turns (that's the bit I can't remember and it's really crucial to get the right preloads Peter mentions!) - then turn the engine 1/3 of a turn until cylinder 3 is on the rock, and adjust valves on cylinder 4 as above - then get 6 on the rock and adjust 2, and so on...

I'll look for that sheet though...

Edited by tvrgit on Saturday 7th April 21:52

[Mr Plow]

clarenceboddiger said:

Sorry, I cant answer your question,I have had a good look on the following site which has some good info (pdf s) on the engine but it appears only to warn not to adjust for any reason, you may find something if you go through them all, I suppose they're worth having for ref on other jobs.
www.fordscorpio.co.uk/CologneV6manual.htm

I found the very site, it fightened me reading the do not adjust for any reason!!

Thanks

tvrgit said:

I'll look for that sheet though...

Edited by tvrgit on Saturday 7th April 21:52

It would be very much appreciated if you could find it, they don't sound too bad, but do need fixing.


Thanks for all the help.

Edited by Mr Plow on Saturday 7th April 22:30

[Mr Plow]

www.tvrcarclub.co.uk/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3746&KW=tappets&PID=32333#32333

Found this on the TVR Owners Club website. Does this make sense?

My car has a Chassis number before the one quoted, i.e. last five digits 11223, so this must have hydraulic lifters ?

I'm getting all confused !!!

[tvrgit]

Mr Plow said:

www.tvrcarclub.co.uk/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3746&KW=tappets&PID=32333#32333

Found this on the TVR Owners Club website. Does this make sense?

My car has a Chassis number before the one quoted, i.e. last five digits 11223, so this must have hydraulic lifters ?

I'm getting all confused !!!

That's exactly the procedure I described!

I found a USA site for the 2.9 engine in the Bronco or something, and it said 1.5 turns, and I found a note I wrote at the time that said three half-turns (half-turns are easier to count!) so I'm sure that's it!

I'm not going to attempt to say if your car has hydraulic lifters or not - there's no sure-fire test, although if you try this procedure on a solid lifter car you'll either bend the pushrod (unlikely) or all the valves will be held open by 2mm so you'll have no compression (and a possibility of Mr Valve on the way down meeting Mr Piston on the way up, with the normal engine-scrapping results...)

[spludge]

That setting info can also be found on the shpub site as a supplemental to the S series bible. If you need the adjustment sequence it can be found on the tvrsseries.com site amongst others.

Adjusting tappets is in my work plan for the next few weeks so I've been looking at this as well. I have an S3, or at least I think I have, so I should have solid lifters. I was sure of that until I dug a bit deeper and turned up this site: [url]www.sehlin.com/bildata/ford/[/url]

How accurate the data there is I have no idea but it indicates that engines with the code BRC have solid lifters, and BRD and BRE codes hydraulic. Looking at the marking on my block I see CVG629, BR (no C, D or E next to it) and the engine number Dxxxx-xxx. So I'm not sure what I have now, also the marking is a bit messy with the BR overstamped with some of the other characters. When I pull the rocker box covers off I'll have a very careful check over the tappets before I get the spanners out. Problem now is I don't know whether I have solid lifters, hydraulic that someone else may have messed with or incorrect engine code info.

[tvrgit]

spludge said:

When I pull the rocker box covers off I'll have a very careful check over the tappets before I get the spanners out.

You can't tell by looking at in the rocker box.

[spludge]

tvrgit said:

You can't tell by looking at in the rocker box.

I've never messed with hydraulic tappets before so I'm not sure quite what to expect but noting your earlier comments I'm thinking that: There will be tappet clearance with solid lifters, probably over the spec because of wear etc. Properly adjusted hydraulic will have no clearance so should be left alone. With badly adjusted hydraulic I'm guessing that there might be clearance but anyway if I wind the tappet down the valve will stay closed, the piston will be at or close to TDC so any movement in the valve at all probably means its a solid lifter and time to stop. Does that make any sense or am I talking nonsense?

[tvrgit]

spludge said:

tvrgit said:

You can't tell by looking at in the rocker box.

I've never messed with hydraulic tappets before so I'm not sure quite what to expect but noting your earlier comments I'm thinking that: There will be tappet clearance with solid lifters, probably over the spec because of wear etc. Properly adjusted hydraulic will have no clearance so should be left alone. With badly adjusted hydraulic I'm guessing that there might be clearance but anyway if I wind the tappet down the valve will stay closed, the piston will be at or close to TDC so any movement in the valve at all probably means its a solid lifter and time to stop. Does that make any sense or am I talking nonsense?

No that sounds about right... probably!

[spludge]

tvrgit said:

... probably!

Yep, thats exactly what I thought!

I'll have to go to the Ford main dealer for gaskets etc so I'll ask there to see whether they can tell from the engine number, you never know.

[GreenV8S]

spludge said:

Does that make any sense or am I talking nonsense?

Um, not sure. You can't tell whether you have hydraulic followers by looking at the rockers, or moving the adjusters. The only thing you can do that might work is wind the adjuster up far enough to lift the valve slightly, leave it to stand for a while, and see whether the valve has closed up. I'd be very cautious though, if it isn't obvious then you need to make sure by inspection. If you get it wrong and try to use the 'hydraulic' settings for solid lifters or vice versa you'll damage something.

[clarenceboddiger]

GreenV8S said:

spludge said:

Does that make any sense or am I talking nonsense?

Um, not sure. You can't tell whether you have hydraulic followers by looking at the rockers, or moving the adjusters. The only thing you can do that might work is wind the adjuster up far enough to lift the valve slightly, leave it to stand for a while, and see whether the valve has closed up. I'd be very cautious though, if it isn't obvious then you need to make sure by inspection. If you get it wrong and try to use the 'hydraulic' settings for solid lifters or vice versa you'll damage something.

I take it the oil will "bleed" slowly from the lifter then with constant pressure ??? Im just wondering at what point the oil feed hole may be closed off, I suppose it could be adjusted very slightly and a DTI left on it for a few mintes.

[GreenV8S]

clarenceboddiger said:

I take it the oil will "bleed" slowly from the lifter then with constant pressure ???

In theory, but some people have had problems setting the preload on wet lifters because they won't bleed down, and had to dismantle them and drain them before they could adjust the preload. So even if it doesn't bleed down, I don't think this would be conclusive proof that you have solid lifters. But if it *does* very obviously bleed down it could prove that they are hydraulic. Worth a try, but if in any doubt you are really going to have to set eyes on the things to make sure.

[Mr Plow]

Does anybody have any pictures of a solid and hydraulic lifter?

[tvrgit]

You can't see them unless you dismantle the engine - they sit in the vee of the engine on top of the camshaft, ie at the bottom of the pushrods.

The top end of the engine, cylinder heads, rockers etc look exactly the same.

Don't have pictures I'm afraid - but solid lifters are like tiny inverted pistons that sit on the camshaft and the pushrods sit in them. hydraulic ones are like one cup inside another with a light spring between (the preload that greenV8S mentioned originally) but they are mainly kept apart when the engine is running, by oil pressure between the two cups.

[GreenV8S]

Mr Plow said:

Does anybody have any pictures of a solid and hydraulic lifter?

Here's a picture of the top of a hydraulic lifter for the RV8, from the RPI V8 web site:

www.rpiv8.com/images/Tappets_Meauring_preload.jpg

The basic principle will be the same; looking at the end where the pushrod end sits, you'll see the open end of a sleeve, with the top of a moving piston inside it, and a retaining clip stopping the piston from coming out. If you have solid lifters then instead of this lot you'll have a simple bucket that the pushrod end sits in.

[Mr Plow]

tvrgit said:

I had the same problem as you - I set them but didn't know they were hydraulic, and had to fix it.

How did you know that this had happened, was it really obvious, mine are noisier than they probably should be and I do have a small amount of irregular idling, which could be due to incorrect valve clearances?
The noise also varies, which makes me think they could be hydraulic and are adjusting them selves incorrectly?

Really don't want to sprip the engine down

Edited by Mr Plow on Thursday 12th April 10:17

[jimed]

I have the piece of paper in front of me. It says that S3C with VIN before SDLDS******011340 will have the engine with hydraulic lifters. Assuming that is correct the setting process is -
"with the valves closed:
1. Turn the screw until there is no clearance (0.00mm)
This is easier said than done especially if the oil has been pressed out of the lifters and if the push rod bends. It is worth holding the pushrod in place with one hand and adjusting the clearance and then check to see if the rod moves ie there is still clearance. (Jim think - why not run the engine and make sure the oil is in the lifters??)
2. With the 0mm clearance set, turn in the screw by 1.5 turns (corresponds to compressing the spring in the tappet by 2mm).
If you have any doubt over what valve type you have I would suggest seeking professional advice."

My S3C falls in the earlier than above category and does have the hydraulic lifters as I had them replaced a couple of years ago. The above procedure was used to set mine and they are fine.

If anyone wants a copy of the paper let me know and I will scan/email it - or take it to Chatsworth - assuming my bl***y kneee is OK. (Still not able to drive much having twisted my knee nearly 3 weeks ago now and am having withdrawal symptoms.... missed Oulton Park ... hope to get to Three Sisters this Sat though ...maybe)
Jim

Edited by jimed on Thursday 12th April 14:19