"Flappy paddle" Gearboxes are crap? I think not......
Discussion
Horses and course....
The DSG is actually VERY good indeed. However, I am also honest enough to consider that its not for everyone. Well, clearly it would be stupid for VW to launch something like the GTi with DSG only - so its available as an option. You don't like it, dont get the option. Seems pretty simple to me. Personal choice though.
As for which is better? DSG or normal Auto? That's a hard one. The DSG is just uncanny in its efficiency. Its smooth, fast and even on track days it seems difficult to catch out. That said, the latest Autoboxes that are available now are utterly superb. Aston took the latest generation Borg box I believe which has paddles but still uses a torque convertor. It has the programming to blip the throttle on downshifts which is excellent. The BMW sport auto is also fantastic and you can't really fault it for its efficiency.
More and more buyers are realising that a compromise is needed. Something that you can put in D and not worry about it again, but on the rare times that you can get, you have some sort of manual change mechanism. Although manuals are still the norm these days, more and more people are opting for Autos because they are sick and tired of knackered legs after spending 3 hours on the M25 for example.
I like and welcome the choice - long may it continue...
The DSG is actually VERY good indeed. However, I am also honest enough to consider that its not for everyone. Well, clearly it would be stupid for VW to launch something like the GTi with DSG only - so its available as an option. You don't like it, dont get the option. Seems pretty simple to me. Personal choice though.
As for which is better? DSG or normal Auto? That's a hard one. The DSG is just uncanny in its efficiency. Its smooth, fast and even on track days it seems difficult to catch out. That said, the latest Autoboxes that are available now are utterly superb. Aston took the latest generation Borg box I believe which has paddles but still uses a torque convertor. It has the programming to blip the throttle on downshifts which is excellent. The BMW sport auto is also fantastic and you can't really fault it for its efficiency.
More and more buyers are realising that a compromise is needed. Something that you can put in D and not worry about it again, but on the rare times that you can get, you have some sort of manual change mechanism. Although manuals are still the norm these days, more and more people are opting for Autos because they are sick and tired of knackered legs after spending 3 hours on the M25 for example.
I like and welcome the choice - long may it continue...
I often get to drive an RS6 with flappy paddle, and find it wanting in flappy paddle mode, it's much better just to leave it in 'D' fully automatic mode, that's how poor the flappy paddle was, IMO. It would be fab with proper gears and a clutch, like FJ's S4. I understand that some of them are very good though, and on a bread & butter car, like a VAG TDi, the DSG is very good indeed.
DavidUK said:
Polarbert said:
I wouldn't say they are 'crap' but they are bit too artificial. There is nothing like changing gear your self with the clutch and gearstick. Its all part of driving.
I'd never take a flappy paddle over a manual on something even slightly sporting. I think it would completely ruin the experience for me.
Do you start your engine with a key or a crank handle?I'd never take a flappy paddle over a manual on something even slightly sporting. I think it would completely ruin the experience for me.
as with most stuff, there are good ones and bad ones...
DSG is certianly one fo the best functionally, the only downside is it weighs a shit load more than a manual or the traditional auto.
SMG is hatefull, yes, later versions have got better, but it's still not great IMHO.
when you consider how good some auto's have got (Merc's 7G etc) then what's the point?
DSG is certianly one fo the best functionally, the only downside is it weighs a shit load more than a manual or the traditional auto.
SMG is hatefull, yes, later versions have got better, but it's still not great IMHO.
when you consider how good some auto's have got (Merc's 7G etc) then what's the point?
I think they have their places. I, for instance, would never buy a manual E46 M3, it'd have to be the paddleshift (though either would be good right now) but by the same token, I'd never have anything other than a manual 911 or a paddleshift auto Jag XK.
It's all about what suits the car. I don't believe they detract from the driving experience in the way that a lot of doom mongers say they do though.
It's all about what suits the car. I don't believe they detract from the driving experience in the way that a lot of doom mongers say they do though.
I have to add to what's been said above with regards to how good traditional auto boxes are these days, I drive a new style Jag XKR and until the day I had the opportunity of driving it for the first time I was a die hard "I need to have a big stick and three pedals" kinda guy, now things are very different, the XKR auto box, which is the same ZF gearbox that appears in the DB9 with some software changes for faster shifts is just the most enjoyable, involving, smooth and fast gearbox I've experienced, it has all the advantages of a traditional auto and none of the drawbacks of an automated manual, smooth and predictable when tootling along and completely controllable and smooth when having a blast. If every gearbox could be like this I'd never drive a manual again......
John.
John.
i drove my dads Z4 with SMG, really enjoyed the down changes with the cool auto blip, but the upshifts were horrible, quite jerky and slow with or without full throttle. i guess that might have been the old one.
Id love a proper sequencial with flappy paddles rather than a auto/manual box. That would be alot simpler surely?
Id love a proper sequencial with flappy paddles rather than a auto/manual box. That would be alot simpler surely?
I can see why the supercar manufacturers are heading to the SMG/DSG gearboxes...
They have a 'cool factor' to them and I would thin kit makes the car easier to drive quickly for a novice and for on the road when the driver wants the luxury part of the car they just stick it in D and cruise along.
I would like a DSG Golf GTI for a daily...just for the simplicity of sticking it in D and tootling along but I can also have a blast with some control of my own.
I hope that we dont lose the manual gearbox for good though...It would be a real shame if cars (supercars anyway) stopped getting something a beutifully made as this>>>
They have a 'cool factor' to them and I would thin kit makes the car easier to drive quickly for a novice and for on the road when the driver wants the luxury part of the car they just stick it in D and cruise along.
I would like a DSG Golf GTI for a daily...just for the simplicity of sticking it in D and tootling along but I can also have a blast with some control of my own.
I hope that we dont lose the manual gearbox for good though...It would be a real shame if cars (supercars anyway) stopped getting something a beutifully made as this>>>
I've just recently driven a DSG, in an Audi A3 2.0T. I wrote this for another forum shortly after driving it, and it sums up my feeling on the DSG.
The DSG has received a lot of attention recently, and rightly so. It is a fantastic technological achievement, simply fantastic. I've never driven a "F1-style" gearbox so I can't really comment on those, but it seems impossible that this DSG isn't better. I really don't see any reason to ever get a car with a torque-converter automatic anymore, if one of these DSGs can be had on the car. The shifts are unbelievably quick while being completely smooth. The only time it stumbles a bit is when there is some drive-line rumble and the fact that there seems to be a slight and annoying delay from when the paddle is pulled back to when the shift actually takes place. The shift itself is instant, there just seems to be a delay while the computer thinks about actually doing the shift I guess. Having said all this, I would still choose a manual every time. It is quite impressive to go from 6th to 3rd and back to 6th with the paddles while on the interstate and not feel the car jerk one bit, but it feels too much like a video-game for my liking. I'd just rather shift my own gears, even if I am no where near as perfect as the computer...
The DSG has received a lot of attention recently, and rightly so. It is a fantastic technological achievement, simply fantastic. I've never driven a "F1-style" gearbox so I can't really comment on those, but it seems impossible that this DSG isn't better. I really don't see any reason to ever get a car with a torque-converter automatic anymore, if one of these DSGs can be had on the car. The shifts are unbelievably quick while being completely smooth. The only time it stumbles a bit is when there is some drive-line rumble and the fact that there seems to be a slight and annoying delay from when the paddle is pulled back to when the shift actually takes place. The shift itself is instant, there just seems to be a delay while the computer thinks about actually doing the shift I guess. Having said all this, I would still choose a manual every time. It is quite impressive to go from 6th to 3rd and back to 6th with the paddles while on the interstate and not feel the car jerk one bit, but it feels too much like a video-game for my liking. I'd just rather shift my own gears, even if I am no where near as perfect as the computer...
Colonial said:
Or, and here is a brainwave, we can leave it up to the individual to choose whether they want a dsg/flappy paddle/smg gearbox or a manual.
I know. Revolutionary concept and all.
I think you make an excellent point. I know. Revolutionary concept and all.
The auto/DSG/SMG/manual argument is similar to the performance diesel debate. Manual is more involving. Autos (of various types) can be more effective and practical.
There is no answer to which is "better", because in different cars and driving conditions either effectiveness or involvement is the priority.
I understand the appeal of automated transmissions. They can be more effective than a human driver, and give an experience closer to (say) an F1 race car, which must be cool. But race cars are not designed to be fun, they are designed to be fast.
Driving a sports car is all about involvement - defined by interaction between the driver and simple, mechanical systems. The feeling of involvement is a byproduct of speed, and speed adds excitement, but speed is not the main objective.
On the approach to a corner, I want to feel the weight transfer under braking, how it affects the grip and balance. I don't want independent wheel braking on a sports car, because it makes the cars responses more complicated and less fun. If there was a system for electronically eliminating weight transfer, I wouldn't want that either, even though it would make the car faster. Similarly, I don't want an auto, because without manually clutched gearchanges, driving is all about speed, and that is not enough.
But then I haven't driven a F430 with F1, or a Veyron with DSG, or a 997 with PASM, so my ramblings are completely unqualified.
John
There is no answer to which is "better", because in different cars and driving conditions either effectiveness or involvement is the priority.
I understand the appeal of automated transmissions. They can be more effective than a human driver, and give an experience closer to (say) an F1 race car, which must be cool. But race cars are not designed to be fun, they are designed to be fast.
Driving a sports car is all about involvement - defined by interaction between the driver and simple, mechanical systems. The feeling of involvement is a byproduct of speed, and speed adds excitement, but speed is not the main objective.
On the approach to a corner, I want to feel the weight transfer under braking, how it affects the grip and balance. I don't want independent wheel braking on a sports car, because it makes the cars responses more complicated and less fun. If there was a system for electronically eliminating weight transfer, I wouldn't want that either, even though it would make the car faster. Similarly, I don't want an auto, because without manually clutched gearchanges, driving is all about speed, and that is not enough.
But then I haven't driven a F430 with F1, or a Veyron with DSG, or a 997 with PASM, so my ramblings are completely unqualified.
John
Edited by LathamJohnP on Tuesday 22 January 07:27
Flappy paddle/DSG is definitely the way of the future. Mass market/globalization will mean that eventually the manual option will disappear once they have the auto (american) and semi-auto (rest of civilization) flagwavers covered. Eventually people will realise there are more on the roads, and their first cars will be autos. Next thing you know, Auto-only driving licenses become the norm. Driving lesson cars become semi-autos (easier, no stalls) and then theres no-one left to sell manuals to.
Personally I like the idea but dont like the lack of control. I think the perfect balance would be to develop a 'gradual' flappy paddle. Where I can control the paddle as if it were a clutch. I could control the speed of the change, hold onto gears mid-corner, ease out the 'clutch', even ride it if i wanted to. Gives me the control back. The actual change of gear would happen at the top of the paddle travel, the release section would all be clutch.
Personally I like the idea but dont like the lack of control. I think the perfect balance would be to develop a 'gradual' flappy paddle. Where I can control the paddle as if it were a clutch. I could control the speed of the change, hold onto gears mid-corner, ease out the 'clutch', even ride it if i wanted to. Gives me the control back. The actual change of gear would happen at the top of the paddle travel, the release section would all be clutch.
DSG and the like are very good these days. I'd never dispute that.
But I like changing gears so I have no interest in owning a car with a clutchless manual.
What's pretty grating is these twits who insists DSG is better because its faster round a track, like thats in any way relevant.
But I like changing gears so I have no interest in owning a car with a clutchless manual.
What's pretty grating is these twits who insists DSG is better because its faster round a track, like thats in any way relevant.
trackdemon said:
Is it just me?
That was my first thought but a quick Google reveals he's a fair enthusiast having owned:TomM said:
Just read a Sunday supplement with James Martin (TV Chef) doing a right up on the Mk5 Golf GTI
Er, since when has a chef been the person of choice to write a motoring piece??? 360M (bought when 25 - there's money in TV cheffing!)
300SL Gullwing (sold making £100k profit)
355
340R (had two)
'59 Corvette
DB5
RS4
'67 Shelby GT350 Mustang
'64 Fiat 595 Abarth
Lola Formula 3000 (bought two in case one breaks down during races)
'97 Jordan F1
Also into bikes with an £80k custom Wurtz chopper, Harley NightRod, 999R & 700R quad.
He built a garages at his house to hold 12 cars and made sure the doors were wide enough for an Enzo, just in case.
On his hit list are a DB6, Countach, '72 RS Touring, Steve McQueen's '63 250GT and a vintage Ferrari 195 Inter race car.
The guy knows his cars!
Back OT I've not driven that many paddle shift cars but was impressed with the DSG on a boggo Audi. However, during the 30 minute test drive, I ended up just leaving it in automatic. It was clearly technologically brilliant but a bit too Playstation for me.
I would probably go for F1, SMG, E-Gear etc. on a top line performance car simply because I'm not a good enough driver to extract the full potential otherwise. Lots of "heel n toe" heroes on PH it seems. I'm not one of them.
Edited by thekirbyfake on Tuesday 22 January 11:07
Did you see Plato driving the Merc on Fifth Gear last night? He was getting very frustrated that the downshift paddle didn't give him a lower gear when HE wanted it.
I drove a friend's TT DSG and found the auto modes to be either too keen to get into a high gear (normal mode) or too frantic for most driving (sport mode). It felt like it needed an "enthusiastic mode" between the two. When changing gear with the paddles it was excellent technically but felt too much like a computer game for my preferences - I like to feel mechanically connected to a car and the DSG paddleshift removed that connection, diminishing the driving experience for me.
I drove a friend's TT DSG and found the auto modes to be either too keen to get into a high gear (normal mode) or too frantic for most driving (sport mode). It felt like it needed an "enthusiastic mode" between the two. When changing gear with the paddles it was excellent technically but felt too much like a computer game for my preferences - I like to feel mechanically connected to a car and the DSG paddleshift removed that connection, diminishing the driving experience for me.
stephen300o said:
I think it's just the old dears that have spent a life time perfecting heel'n'toe they don't want to face that its now redundant.
I take a different view. What does it matter, out on the road, that your gearchange is a few miliseconds quicker than it would be if you changed it with the old clutch-down-move-lever-match-revs-accelerate routine. Are you honestly going to be there with a stopwatch timing it every time you go for a run down your favourite B-road?Yes, it might be quicker, but getting it just right is more satisfying and involving, in the same way that a microwave ready-meal Sunday roast contains all the same ingrediants as the one you would spend hours cooking and taking pride in, but is much faster.
I like changing gear the old fashioned way, it's just more satisfying.
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