Europa - TMS Stage II
Discussion
Evening all. I'm looking at upgrading my current car which is a VX 220 (N/A). Initially I was after a car with a little more performance and refinement. Wanting to stay within the Lotus gene-pool I was seriously contemplating an Exige or even an Exige S with a little massaging of the figures. However during my search I've started looking, and seriously contemplating the Europa, in particular a Stage II TMS Europa.
On the face of it they appear to be a lot of car for the money. When I first saw one in the flesh last weekend I was surprised at just how good it looked, photos just don't do this car justice!!
Anyway I was just enquiring to hear owner's views on the car, in particular people who have a tuned version. What is the performance like and would you say it's easy to live with as a daily drive? I'm off to look at the one at Llantrissant Cars on the weekend so hopefully this will give me a good idea of what the car is about.
As they are basically a VX Turbo in a different dress I feel fairly confident with giving the car the once over however if people know of anything I should keep an eye out for then please let me know.
Cheers
Adam
On the face of it they appear to be a lot of car for the money. When I first saw one in the flesh last weekend I was surprised at just how good it looked, photos just don't do this car justice!!
Anyway I was just enquiring to hear owner's views on the car, in particular people who have a tuned version. What is the performance like and would you say it's easy to live with as a daily drive? I'm off to look at the one at Llantrissant Cars on the weekend so hopefully this will give me a good idea of what the car is about.
As they are basically a VX Turbo in a different dress I feel fairly confident with giving the car the once over however if people know of anything I should keep an eye out for then please let me know.
Cheers
Adam
Hi
saw your comments on the VX site and basically agree with your thoughts. I have a black Eurpa and use it every day with no problem. I agree they look much better in the flesh than in pictures and people are always commenting on it in petrol stations etc.
Thorney have done a geo on the car which makes a big difference to how sharp it is. I have also fitted the Mintex pads but not sure on these as I am still running them in. Initial impression is good but I have to tack them to find out...going to the Ring next week so that should tell me.
I have driven the grey Thoreny Europa R and that is a great car. I have to say the standard one just with the suspension sorted is pretty quick, lives with fast motor bikes with little problem. The Europa R is quite a lot harder and looks it.
As far as residuals are concerned I don't know how it will compare with Exiges in a few years. There are an awful lot of Exiges on the market and not many Europas. Also if you look on the web sites people are coming around to the Europa which is sort of overcoming the bad press. I am probably the wrong person to ask as I buy cars to have fun, if I want to make money I invest it.
I guess they are all good fun cars so its really buyers choice.
cheers
C43
saw your comments on the VX site and basically agree with your thoughts. I have a black Eurpa and use it every day with no problem. I agree they look much better in the flesh than in pictures and people are always commenting on it in petrol stations etc.
Thorney have done a geo on the car which makes a big difference to how sharp it is. I have also fitted the Mintex pads but not sure on these as I am still running them in. Initial impression is good but I have to tack them to find out...going to the Ring next week so that should tell me.
I have driven the grey Thoreny Europa R and that is a great car. I have to say the standard one just with the suspension sorted is pretty quick, lives with fast motor bikes with little problem. The Europa R is quite a lot harder and looks it.
As far as residuals are concerned I don't know how it will compare with Exiges in a few years. There are an awful lot of Exiges on the market and not many Europas. Also if you look on the web sites people are coming around to the Europa which is sort of overcoming the bad press. I am probably the wrong person to ask as I buy cars to have fun, if I want to make money I invest it.
I guess they are all good fun cars so its really buyers choice.
cheers
C43
Cheers for the comments C43, particularly the comments regarding residual values and the limited number of Europas about. Quite a good point that could only be a bonus.
As for geometry this is the achiles of the standard VX as most come out the factory with a little understeer drilled into the Geometry. I would plan on keeping my Speedlines and putting them onto the Europa, (16"/17") combo and getting a decent geometry done on it.
What were your thought on the Nitrons that were on the Europa R? Were they too hard and compromise the ride on the road?
As for geometry this is the achiles of the standard VX as most come out the factory with a little understeer drilled into the Geometry. I would plan on keeping my Speedlines and putting them onto the Europa, (16"/17") combo and getting a decent geometry done on it.
What were your thought on the Nitrons that were on the Europa R? Were they too hard and compromise the ride on the road?
I only drove the car on smoothish roads and it was absolutely fine. I live in Oxford where the roads are s
t but even so I think I am going to go for Nitrons and stiffer springs. I like the look of the car running lower and the stiffer suspension will be good on track. Also most people seem to think the ride of the VX on Nitrons is ok so I think the Europa should also be good. I am hoping to get new rims and T1Rs on in the next couple of weeks which should be fun. Enjoy the test drive.
C43
t but even so I think I am going to go for Nitrons and stiffer springs. I like the look of the car running lower and the stiffer suspension will be good on track. Also most people seem to think the ride of the VX on Nitrons is ok so I think the Europa should also be good. I am hoping to get new rims and T1Rs on in the next couple of weeks which should be fun. Enjoy the test drive.C43
Haven't driven one yet, but they seem very cheap at the moment. Add in nitrons, geo, and the power upgrade, and you've still only spent maybe £2K extra to have an absolutely cracking car. I've seen Ben (L100NNY) at North Weald in one and it sounded incredible, popping at cracking even at low revs....
Not so sure a eagle is going to be 40k while second europas are around 20k, can't see it having a big effect to be honest cars are just to far apart
Whats hurt the europa is lotus never really got behind it in a big way, there were a couple of small mag articles and that was it, most people have never heard of it
I realy like it to be honest, i think values were hit hard in the first year but i don't think it will contiune to depreciate in value at quite the same pace it has done
Whats hurt the europa is lotus never really got behind it in a big way, there were a couple of small mag articles and that was it, most people have never heard of it
I realy like it to be honest, i think values were hit hard in the first year but i don't think it will contiune to depreciate in value at quite the same pace it has done
Edited by peter450 on Thursday 3rd July 23:31
I have a 225hp Europa.
I had an Elise 135 before, and chose the Europa over a Cayman S after test driving both. The Porsche is a great car, but is 300kg more than the Europa - and feels it.
I hate understeer, and after transforming my Elise with 195 fronts, I did the same to the Europa. Using the 195/45R17 front (which is used on the new Europa SE), I switched to Goodyear Eagle F1 GSD3s all round. The car is a lot less 'floaty' on the front now at speed.
At first I really noticed that the power delivery was a bit peaky, but now (5000 miles) it seems smooth. Either I'm driving around it or running it in has helped.......
Overall, a fantastic car. I find the standard suspension fine for our B-roads, but different brake pads are a must for heavy track use.
Thorney tell me that a Milltek exhaust would liberate a further 30bhp - I'm almost ready for that.
The only thing I don't like about the car is a bit of drivetrain harshness when decelerating off the throttle (eg: Coasting in 6th). I'm going to get this checked whilst it's still warranted as I'm not sure if it is a characteristic of the car or a problem with mine.... Does anyone elses do this?
I had an Elise 135 before, and chose the Europa over a Cayman S after test driving both. The Porsche is a great car, but is 300kg more than the Europa - and feels it.
I hate understeer, and after transforming my Elise with 195 fronts, I did the same to the Europa. Using the 195/45R17 front (which is used on the new Europa SE), I switched to Goodyear Eagle F1 GSD3s all round. The car is a lot less 'floaty' on the front now at speed.
At first I really noticed that the power delivery was a bit peaky, but now (5000 miles) it seems smooth. Either I'm driving around it or running it in has helped.......
Overall, a fantastic car. I find the standard suspension fine for our B-roads, but different brake pads are a must for heavy track use.
Thorney tell me that a Milltek exhaust would liberate a further 30bhp - I'm almost ready for that.
The only thing I don't like about the car is a bit of drivetrain harshness when decelerating off the throttle (eg: Coasting in 6th). I'm going to get this checked whilst it's still warranted as I'm not sure if it is a characteristic of the car or a problem with mine.... Does anyone elses do this?
Redlake27,
I had this vibration on overrun, slight at first but it got worse. I was told this was a characteristic of the car, hmm, yeah right.
I Persisted and my car eventually went back to the factory with Lotus admitting that my vibration was excessive. They were absolutey brilliant from that moment on.
The problem was an engine stablising bar that was out of tolerance. The car came back and was superb.
I dealt with Neil Turner at customer services who was great, once I had convinced him that there was a problem!
Hope this helps
Lisa
I had this vibration on overrun, slight at first but it got worse. I was told this was a characteristic of the car, hmm, yeah right.
I Persisted and my car eventually went back to the factory with Lotus admitting that my vibration was excessive. They were absolutey brilliant from that moment on.
The problem was an engine stablising bar that was out of tolerance. The car came back and was superb.
I dealt with Neil Turner at customer services who was great, once I had convinced him that there was a problem!
Hope this helps
Lisa
Overall I was really pleased and the car exceeded my expectation.
The salesman allowed me to go out on my own as he said 'I can get in but can't get out the bloody thing'. Happy days I though until I saw the fuel gauge with no bars on it so it wasn't going to be a long test drive. Started the car, which didn't have the starter button so I think it's a very early production car, and notice a big cloud of black smoke come out the exhaust. It's obvious that this car has been stood around for a while maybe ages.
Anyway got it out on to the open road and my mechanical sympathy ensured I let the car warm up properly before giving it any beans. The first thing I noticed is the car feels very solid and firm. Steering is lighter that the VX but still nicely weighted which is probably down to the skinny fronts. The Probax seats are very comfortable. The interior is a very nice place to be, same proportions as a VX/Elise which I love, and you get that feeling of sitting IN the car.
With engine running to temperature I was able to give it a bit of welly and wow!!! The car launches away on a wave of torque and feels very urgent. Coming from an N/A the power delivery is very different. I did also notice a very large dip in tourque between 4-5k RPM which was a little concerning as I thought stage II would erradicate that. The exhaust note really comes alive with the right pedal and there were even a few pops!! The car's handling felt very familiar however I didn't fancy pushing it too much as the roads were wet and the car, with Nitrons, was set up for a 16"/17" wheel combo and not the 17" all round as it was. I think the previous owner had clearly returned the car back to standard before trading it in. As it was it felt very solid, giving 9/10ths of the VX handling experience and yet not compromising a very pleasant drive on standard roads.
On retuning to the garage I pulled up and parked the car allowing it to run to cool down the turbo. I was a little concerned that the engine temp had quickly risen to 93'C and one of the fans had kicked in. I know these cars/engines have a problem with cooling but that appeared to be a dramatic rise in temp over a very short space of time, with the fans kicking in a little prematurely.
Overall I think I have found what the next car will be - the Europa. It fits the bill almost perfectly. I need to do a little investigation with regard to the heat issue and also do some research on this car's history. Also I'm reluctant having only driven one Europa, to go for the first one I've seen. One thing is for sure though that I will be getting one with a Miltek and some Nitrons. And of course my Speedlines - hopefully it will look something like this then!!!
The salesman allowed me to go out on my own as he said 'I can get in but can't get out the bloody thing'. Happy days I though until I saw the fuel gauge with no bars on it so it wasn't going to be a long test drive. Started the car, which didn't have the starter button so I think it's a very early production car, and notice a big cloud of black smoke come out the exhaust. It's obvious that this car has been stood around for a while maybe ages.
Anyway got it out on to the open road and my mechanical sympathy ensured I let the car warm up properly before giving it any beans. The first thing I noticed is the car feels very solid and firm. Steering is lighter that the VX but still nicely weighted which is probably down to the skinny fronts. The Probax seats are very comfortable. The interior is a very nice place to be, same proportions as a VX/Elise which I love, and you get that feeling of sitting IN the car.
With engine running to temperature I was able to give it a bit of welly and wow!!! The car launches away on a wave of torque and feels very urgent. Coming from an N/A the power delivery is very different. I did also notice a very large dip in tourque between 4-5k RPM which was a little concerning as I thought stage II would erradicate that. The exhaust note really comes alive with the right pedal and there were even a few pops!! The car's handling felt very familiar however I didn't fancy pushing it too much as the roads were wet and the car, with Nitrons, was set up for a 16"/17" wheel combo and not the 17" all round as it was. I think the previous owner had clearly returned the car back to standard before trading it in. As it was it felt very solid, giving 9/10ths of the VX handling experience and yet not compromising a very pleasant drive on standard roads.
On retuning to the garage I pulled up and parked the car allowing it to run to cool down the turbo. I was a little concerned that the engine temp had quickly risen to 93'C and one of the fans had kicked in. I know these cars/engines have a problem with cooling but that appeared to be a dramatic rise in temp over a very short space of time, with the fans kicking in a little prematurely.
Overall I think I have found what the next car will be - the Europa. It fits the bill almost perfectly. I need to do a little investigation with regard to the heat issue and also do some research on this car's history. Also I'm reluctant having only driven one Europa, to go for the first one I've seen. One thing is for sure though that I will be getting one with a Miltek and some Nitrons. And of course my Speedlines - hopefully it will look something like this then!!!
Edited by ad220 on Monday 7th July 11:09
Hi AD
interesting to hear what you say about the Nitrons, sounds as if the ride is ok on them. They will probably be the next upgrade I do along with some decent tyres. The exhaust is also a good change. I have fitted Mintex pads and these are a cheap and very easy upgrade.
I drove down to Hockenheim yesterday in the company of a 996 and the Europa performed very well. We were crusing at 100 - 120 and temp stayed at ~90. Performance wise the Europa is very similar to the 996 up to about 140, we did not run in company above that speed but I did get it up to 145 when 'passing' an M3 and it felt like there was quite a lot to come. The only downside was at those speeds the Europa goes through a tank of fuel at a fair old pace. Had to run a 3 stop strategy with a saftey car period!
cheers
C43
interesting to hear what you say about the Nitrons, sounds as if the ride is ok on them. They will probably be the next upgrade I do along with some decent tyres. The exhaust is also a good change. I have fitted Mintex pads and these are a cheap and very easy upgrade.
I drove down to Hockenheim yesterday in the company of a 996 and the Europa performed very well. We were crusing at 100 - 120 and temp stayed at ~90. Performance wise the Europa is very similar to the 996 up to about 140, we did not run in company above that speed but I did get it up to 145 when 'passing' an M3 and it felt like there was quite a lot to come. The only downside was at those speeds the Europa goes through a tank of fuel at a fair old pace. Had to run a 3 stop strategy with a saftey car period!
cheers
C43
Thanks for the review Adam, useful info. I've driven a few Europa's with different specs and have found them quite different, so would recommend driving some more - also check out one with the lux pack.. it does make a difference to the interior. I'm coming from an M100 so am used to the power delivery, it is just the Elise style handling (and reduced space) to acclimitise to.
Where did you source your Speedline alloys from? I much prefer the look of the 5 spokes to the Team Dynamics multispoke design.
Where did you source your Speedline alloys from? I much prefer the look of the 5 spokes to the Team Dynamics multispoke design.
C43 - I would definitely recommend the Nitrons as to me they felt very composed and subtle, riding over potholes and drain covers with minimal fuss. This was in comparison to my VX however that has uprated Spax so the ride is extremely firm.
The Mintex are a great upgrade to the braking system, and with the Europa carrying a little extra weight compared to the VX(n/a) would certainly be needed. That said I do find the uprated AP 4 pots seriously tempting!!!
Would definitely recommend the Milltek exhaust. Not only does it look better filling the exit cut out, when you press the loud pedal it sounds a little like a jet plane. As a bonus in 6th gear and cruising, the exhaust noise in the cabin is not obtrusive or loud.
Also found the seats a revolution and extremely comfortable. The Probax system is a great development over previous and could easily see myself touring for several hours!!
COD - I purchased the Speedlines a few years ago now from Thorney Motorsport. They are the same spec as the VXR 220 however they do not make them anymore and are like the proverbial rocking horse!!! Thankfully all the offsets are the same as the VX so they should bolt straight on and give the slight wider front tryre for better turn-in. There is a group buy on VX220.org.uk at the moment for some replicas if you are interested.
The power delivery was a little frustrating to be honest however I am convinced that it is not how it should be. There was just such a dip in tourque between 4k-5k RPM it felt like the car had stopped!! I think as you advised test-drive a few different cars and I should then be able to make a more informed decision.
As for the interior I'm not too sure about the Super Luxury Touring pack. Although I love the seats (larger bucket seats) I think the colour is a bit strong, or at least it is in the photos (tan). Coming from a VX the sight of leather is a luxury!!
On the issue of heat is it common for Europas to build up temperature very quickly and at what temp do the fans tend to kick in?
Cheers
Adam
The Mintex are a great upgrade to the braking system, and with the Europa carrying a little extra weight compared to the VX(n/a) would certainly be needed. That said I do find the uprated AP 4 pots seriously tempting!!!
Would definitely recommend the Milltek exhaust. Not only does it look better filling the exit cut out, when you press the loud pedal it sounds a little like a jet plane. As a bonus in 6th gear and cruising, the exhaust noise in the cabin is not obtrusive or loud.
Also found the seats a revolution and extremely comfortable. The Probax system is a great development over previous and could easily see myself touring for several hours!!
COD - I purchased the Speedlines a few years ago now from Thorney Motorsport. They are the same spec as the VXR 220 however they do not make them anymore and are like the proverbial rocking horse!!! Thankfully all the offsets are the same as the VX so they should bolt straight on and give the slight wider front tryre for better turn-in. There is a group buy on VX220.org.uk at the moment for some replicas if you are interested.
The power delivery was a little frustrating to be honest however I am convinced that it is not how it should be. There was just such a dip in tourque between 4k-5k RPM it felt like the car had stopped!! I think as you advised test-drive a few different cars and I should then be able to make a more informed decision.
As for the interior I'm not too sure about the Super Luxury Touring pack. Although I love the seats (larger bucket seats) I think the colour is a bit strong, or at least it is in the photos (tan). Coming from a VX the sight of leather is a luxury!!
On the issue of heat is it common for Europas to build up temperature very quickly and at what temp do the fans tend to kick in?
Cheers
Adam
Edited by ad220 on Monday 7th July 13:12
Ad
thanks for the feedback. I went to Thorney on Friday and tried the Dynamics on the car as I did not like them in the pictures. However in the flesh they look good so worth looking at. However the Speedlines you have do look good
I agree about the APs, they are just so expensive. Nitrons sound good and they drop the ride heights which looks loads better.
For the interior you can get the upgrade pack in any colour as far as I can work out. Mine is cream on a black car which works for me. The orange interior is far too in your face as far as I can see.
Power delivery does vary from car to car and you do tend to drive around it / the car gets better with age. I did 600miles in mine yesterday and did not notice it once. The only time it bothers me now is if I am trying to do a bit of rally driving in the wet when you tend to be in the mid rev range!
Just did 5 laps around Hockenheim and the Europa is such an easy car to slide around on the circuit. My passenger is a Cayman driver and he was very impressed by how much more like a racing car the Europa feels compared with the german rival. I was going to check the temperture gauge but was having too much fun.
C43
thanks for the feedback. I went to Thorney on Friday and tried the Dynamics on the car as I did not like them in the pictures. However in the flesh they look good so worth looking at. However the Speedlines you have do look good
I agree about the APs, they are just so expensive. Nitrons sound good and they drop the ride heights which looks loads better.
For the interior you can get the upgrade pack in any colour as far as I can work out. Mine is cream on a black car which works for me. The orange interior is far too in your face as far as I can see.
Power delivery does vary from car to car and you do tend to drive around it / the car gets better with age. I did 600miles in mine yesterday and did not notice it once. The only time it bothers me now is if I am trying to do a bit of rally driving in the wet when you tend to be in the mid rev range!
Just did 5 laps around Hockenheim and the Europa is such an easy car to slide around on the circuit. My passenger is a Cayman driver and he was very impressed by how much more like a racing car the Europa feels compared with the german rival. I was going to check the temperture gauge but was having too much fun.
C43
I have the Black Speedlines so I think this could work really well with a Graphite grey Europa, works well on the VX anyway.
Just been doing some reading about the ECU upgrade and it appears that it is a different ECU unit and not just a re-map of the old ECU. I notice that a dealer fairly local to me has one with the upgraded ECU so may go and drive that to see the difference. Then with the Milltek bolted on it should release a few more horses!!
Very jealous of your Euro Tour. A load of us in VXs did the Nurburgring, Switzerland and I finished off in Le Mans in 2006. Was an awesome trip although could have done with Air-con!!!
Just been doing some reading about the ECU upgrade and it appears that it is a different ECU unit and not just a re-map of the old ECU. I notice that a dealer fairly local to me has one with the upgraded ECU so may go and drive that to see the difference. Then with the Milltek bolted on it should release a few more horses!!
Very jealous of your Euro Tour. A load of us in VXs did the Nurburgring, Switzerland and I finished off in Le Mans in 2006. Was an awesome trip although could have done with Air-con!!!
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