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GC8

15,068 posts

75 months

[news] 
Sunday 3rd August 2008 quote quote all
The trouble with peoples opinions/reviews of fake atches, is that theyre subjective. One persons brilliant replica is anothers cheap fake. I doubt that more than a very small minority (ie barely any, if at all)have a genuine ETA movement, because theyre not easy to source; not surprising that Swatch own a number of faked brands and rely on many other faked brands for survival.

A little research will soon show that the 'A-Grade' 'Swiss' replica is a myth. Theyre Chinese and only the quality varies.

You can buy a classic Seamaster for around £100 and a modern Blue dial quartz for around £200. A very nice Submariner-like Sandoz with an ETA movement and sapphire crystal can be bought for £150. Compare that with a ste (and they are ste) fake Submariner, which may well cost more.....

cyberface

12,213 posts

142 months

[news] 
Sunday 3rd August 2008 quote quote all
If you still don't believe that there are plenty of replicas being produced with ETA movements then the best thing to do is simply to order one of the replicas that claim to have the 'ETA' movement and dismantle it to see what you find.

ETA have a chinese factory that make ETA movements. Where do you think the replica makers get their movements from? China. It's all chinese. However, the Chinese have CNC machines as well, and once you've got a batch of ETA movements and someone who can work a CNC machine, away you go.

I have personally dismantled one of these 'ETA' replicas, and true to advertising, the watch contained a movement which, to all inspection with a loupe, was an ETA 2836-2. It keeps as good time as my Breguet and the Omega speedmaster (both genuine) - so if the Chinese are making 'fake ETA movements' then they're damn good ones, because they have good power reserve and keep time well.

This is quite obviously not the case, because if the Chinese could make fake movements that perform as well as the original, then they'd be making fake Rolex movements for their fake Rolexes. Currently, all the 'good' fake Rolexes use ETA movements. Why? Because that's the best that's available, and the Swiss were naive enough to open up an ETA factory in China without realising that clone factories would be built.

There's a lot of rumour and BS spoken about replica watches. I prefer to rely on primary evidence, and I'm in the fortunate position of owning genuine watches that I can compare to the replicas. And believe me, certain particular replicas out there are damn near impossible to distinguish from the genuine to my 'watch enthusiast' eye. I'm sure the professional dealers will be able to tell the difference, but if I can't, then your average layman won't either. And this is what is putting the wind up the Swiss - save for snob value, a real Breitling with an ETA movement is very hard to distinguish from a replica Breitling with an ETA movement. Since the movements are the same, parts are interchangeable, so there are frankenwatches out there which are a mixture of genuine and replica parts - given the prices charged by the Swiss for steel bracelets (e.g. replacement of a Rolex steel bracelet, which everyone knows feel shoddy to begin with, costs a fortune from Rolex), plenty of people have genuine Rolex watches but with replica bracelets. It's almost like the car equivalent of pattern parts...

Still, once that court order goes through in Switzerland to stop ETA selling base ébauches and only finished movements, perhaps more of the top-end brands will produce their own movements. This will stop the replica guys from being able to produce 1:1 replicas that have interchangeable parts. Brands still insisting on using bought-in ETA base movements and then charging a huge premium for 'being Swiss' will have perfect replicas undercutting them. This is a good thing, since it pushes the Swiss watch industry to actually innovate and add value rather than rip off the customer on the spurious basis that an ETA movement made by a machine in Switzerland with no manual work involved is somehow superior to an ETA movement made by the same machine in China, in a factory owned by ETA.

The way to end most of this would be for the Swatch Group to burn down their production facilities in China. But they won't do that, because outsourcing production is cost effective, and China itself is a huge market to sell watches into. And you can bet Hayek is thinking about the consequences of Chinese increased wealth and the rise of the middle classes in China being a big business opportunity to sell his brands into....

GC8

15,068 posts

75 months

[news] 
Sunday 3rd August 2008 quote quote all
cyberface said:
205lad said:
...I draw the line at funding chinese gangsters, shills and toe-rags like andrew and his mate josh...
...I've only recently found out the extent of Josh's link to Andrew, who I'd never buy from. Makes things tricky, all things said and done, because it's a fun hobby and I like pulling them apart and rebuilding them. And Josh has always been good to do business with... shame he's associated so closely to Andrew, which is something I didn't know about until recently...
Im intrigued. Im assuming that Josh is Trusty Time, but who is Andrew and what have they done?

alfabadass

1,673 posts

84 months

[news] 
Sunday 3rd August 2008 quote quote all
W4NTED said:
£825 of Hublot Big Bang replica here eek WTF would spend that kinda money on a fake! BUT if you read the sellers feedback he has sold a few of these and 100's of A grade replicas too..

His Rolex Daytona's have the second hand running at 6 which is the first I have seen in any replica ever.

http://www.cqout.com/list.asp?seller=&c=0&...

Edited by W4NTED on Sunday 3rd August 16:22
I paid $200 for a rep hbb just becAuse I loved the look of it. Only wore it a few times before getting bored of it. IMO it's one of the best quality watches I've handled. It felt better built and more solid than any watch I've seen for £100. Reps from people like trustytime or my fav silix are worth the cash for what they are (not more than £150)

I prefer my gen speedie and kobold but might offload the hbb and get a chrono avenger and slap a gen breitling leather band.

205lad

310 posts

80 months

[news] 
Sunday 3rd August 2008 quote quote all
GC8 said:
Im intrigued. Im assuming that Josh is Trusty Time, but who is Andrew and what have they done?
Other than p1ssing off all the rep geeks (heh) due to allegations of market rigging the other details aren't something I can discuss on a public forum such as this one.
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GC8

15,068 posts

75 months

[news] 
Sunday 3rd August 2008 quote quote all
cyberface said:
If you still don't believe that there are plenty of replicas being produced with ETA movements then the best thing to do is simply to order one of the replicas that claim to have the 'ETA' movement and dismantle it to see what you find.

ETA have a chinese factory that make ETA movements. Where do you think the replica makers get their movements from? China. It's all chinese. However, the Chinese have CNC machines as well, and once you've got a batch of ETA movements and someone who can work a CNC machine, away you go.

I have personally dismantled one of these 'ETA' replicas, and true to advertising, the watch contained a movement which, to all inspection with a loupe, was an ETA 2836-2. It keeps as good time as my Breguet and the Omega speedmaster (both genuine) - so if the Chinese are making 'fake ETA movements' then they're damn good ones, because they have good power reserve and keep time well.

This is quite obviously not the case, because if the Chinese could make fake movements that perform as well as the original, then they'd be making fake Rolex movements for their fake Rolexes. Currently, all the 'good' fake Rolexes use ETA movements. Why? Because that's the best that's available, and the Swiss were naive enough to open up an ETA factory in China without realising that clone factories would be built.

There's a lot of rumour and BS spoken about replica watches. I prefer to rely on primary evidence, and I'm in the fortunate position of owning genuine watches that I can compare to the replicas. And believe me, certain particular replicas out there are damn near impossible to distinguish from the genuine to my 'watch enthusiast' eye. I'm sure the professional dealers will be able to tell the difference, but if I can't, then your average layman won't either. And this is what is putting the wind up the Swiss - save for snob value, a real Breitling with an ETA movement is very hard to distinguish from a replica Breitling with an ETA movement. Since the movements are the same, parts are interchangeable, so there are frankenwatches out there which are a mixture of genuine and replica parts - given the prices charged by the Swiss for steel bracelets (e.g. replacement of a Rolex steel bracelet, which everyone knows feel shoddy to begin with, costs a fortune from Rolex), plenty of people have genuine Rolex watches but with replica bracelets. It's almost like the car equivalent of pattern parts...

Still, once that court order goes through in Switzerland to stop ETA selling base ébauches and only finished movements, perhaps more of the top-end brands will produce their own movements. This will stop the replica guys from being able to produce 1:1 replicas that have interchangeable parts. Brands still insisting on using bought-in ETA base movements and then charging a huge premium for 'being Swiss' will have perfect replicas undercutting them. This is a good thing, since it pushes the Swiss watch industry to actually innovate and add value rather than rip off the customer on the spurious basis that an ETA movement made by a machine in Switzerland with no manual work involved is somehow superior to an ETA movement made by the same machine in China, in a factory owned by ETA.

The way to end most of this would be for the Swatch Group to burn down their production facilities in China. But they won't do that, because outsourcing production is cost effective, and China itself is a huge market to sell watches into. And you can bet Hayek is thinking about the consequences of Chinese increased wealth and the rise of the middle classes in China being a big business opportunity to sell his brands into....
I will concede that I hadnt read your earlier post when I posted: I have since read it with interest (as you may see from my later post). I was not aware that ETA had opened an Eastern market factory, however: both of your posts appear to contradict each other, and themselves. You seem to be suggesting that the watches contain genuine ETA produced (in China) movements, but you then suggest that once a set of drawings made it to China then it was only a matter of time..... In this later suggestion I would agree with you, both high and low quality copies of ETA movements are available in China; and of course, by definition, parts from these movements will be interchangeable with genuine Swiss ETA actions. It seems obvious to me that this would be the case though, as they are copies; an exact copy is easiest to create after all and this fact isnt provenance.

I am confident that, if any of the ebauches used in fake watches are, in fact, of original ETA manufacture (and if theyre 'Swiss' then I will eat my Arai), then the factory has been running at night and Nick doesnt know! Th reality though is that ETA and Citizen copies have been made in China for a good while: quality varies, all that is constant is that theyre not genuine.


GC8

15,068 posts

75 months

[news] 
Sunday 3rd August 2008 quote quote all
205lad said:
GC8 said:
Im intrigued. Im assuming that Josh is Trusty Time, but who is Andrew and what have they done?
Other than p1ssing off all the rep geeks (heh) due to allegations of market rigging the other details aren't something I can discuss on a public forum such as this one.
Feel free to point me in the right direction, or send me a message.

Clarkey boy

81 posts

97 months

[news] 
Sunday 3rd August 2008 quote quote all
Why not see if you have an outlet shop from one of the main retailers near to you,such as Goldsmiths at Cheshire Oaks they also have one in South Wales near Bridgend, where you can make a substantial saving on price due to overstocks, and last seasons models being sold off.

dom9

3,691 posts

94 months

[news] 
Monday 4th August 2008 quote quote all
Was back at the inlaws at the weekend and my father-in-law had bought himself a bi-metal Daytona in Barbados a couple of months ago... Now, my submariner is about 14 months old and that has the green hologram and the serial numbers on the bracelet, but his Daytona has no hologram and no numbers on it... Apparently the dealer told him that is to stop faking... To me, that just makes it easier to fake unless you take the back off, which 99.999% of people won't.

There is no way that I could tell the difference between that and a fake and if anything, even though I know it isn't, I would have guessed that was a fake compared to a marked and hologram backed replica watch!

Watch-Collector

213 posts

80 months

[news] 
Monday 4th August 2008 quote quote all
In actual fact I have personally seen some of the so called Swiss replicas quite recently. Although obviously they arnt made anywhere near Switzerland , these watches are extremely good watches. The models I saw were :
IWC Cousteau Divers , IWC Ingenieur chrono , Breitling Skyland and an extremely good Rolex Seadweller.
These watches were not £20 knock offs but well made from good reliable materials. And the attention to detail is superb ! Apart from the SD which had for sure an ETA 2824 movement the others were fitted with a re-made Valjoux 7750 which looked the same as its counterpart although Im informed they can be unreliable but easily serviced!
Each 7750 also had the rotor inscribed with the brands name/logo , quite impressive.
As a dealer I find this quite worrying in as much as to the untrained eye these watches could be passed as the genuine watch quite easily. Comparing the dials , bands even the model number/part numbers stamped into the case etc make no mistake the quality if these replicas is second to none. They are obviously made using technology to copy the original watches!
What is also an eye opener is the price these watches are being made and sold for when you consider the prices charged by the original brands when to all intense and purposes they are both using the same materials apart from more stringent QC procedures and a few extra small bits here and there!!
I am certainly not condoning this industry , and remain tongue in cheek about the Myths and Tales that get thrown about , but it is certainly indicative of the world we live in and the way we have allowed Asia to have such a powerful hold on our manufacturing and the abuse that has followed.

Watch-Collector

CapriD

82 posts

78 months

[news] 
Monday 4th August 2008 quote quote all
I am in Turkey and so suprized with regards to the amount of fake watches they have. But some mega good copies for 100euros plus. I couldn't buy one. As some have said I would rather a Seiko but there was loads of people walking out with fake Rolex, franck muller etc. But really really good copies. They seemed good quality too.Kind of funny as well when the owner of one of the biggest watch companies around, is in town too....

Edited by CapriD on Monday 4th August 16:41

Shuvi

861 posts

91 months

[news] 
Monday 4th August 2008 quote quote all
As so many on this thread display such expert knowledge of fakes, including dealers names...

I now wonder about the, "Wrist Check" thread and all those, "Oooh look at my lovely watches" threads.

You're all a bunch of fake owning wanabees aren't you?

I think so.

205lad

310 posts

80 months

[news] 
Monday 4th August 2008 quote quote all
Shuvi said:
As so many on this thread display such expert knowledge of fakes, including dealers names...

I now wonder about the, "Wrist Check" thread and all those, "Oooh look at my lovely watches" threads.

You're all a bunch of fake owning wanabees aren't you?

I think so.
Anyone with a reasonable knowledge could spot a fake on a decent 'wrist check' photo.

There do seem to be a lot of people who own fakes here, I'm not one of them and the fact I know what's going on in the world of fake watches doesn't mean I approve either.

Shuvi

861 posts

91 months

[news] 
Monday 4th August 2008 quote quote all
205lad said:
Shuvi said:
As so many on this thread display such expert knowledge of fakes, including dealers names...

I now wonder about the, "Wrist Check" thread and all those, "Oooh look at my lovely watches" threads.

You're all a bunch of fake owning wanabees aren't you?

I think so.
Anyone with a reasonable knowledge could spot a fake on a decent 'wrist check' photo.

There do seem to be a lot of people who own fakes here, I'm not one of them and the fact I know what's going on in the world of fake watches doesn't mean I approve either.
Get you!

You are correct, the, "look at my watch" threads have more fakes than genuine.

You can spot a fake Rolex Sub' by feel if you now what you're feeling for. All this, "Swiss made", "need to open them up to tell", "a dealer wouldn't spot it" is bull...


Pistnheads-Wearing What You Can't Afford Matters


Edited by Shuvi on Monday 4th August 18:05

cyberface

12,213 posts

142 months

[news] 
Monday 4th August 2008 quote quote all
Watch-Collector said:
In actual fact I have personally seen some of the so called Swiss replicas quite recently. Although obviously they arnt made anywhere near Switzerland , these watches are extremely good watches. The models I saw were :
IWC Cousteau Divers , IWC Ingenieur chrono , Breitling Skyland and an extremely good Rolex Seadweller.
These watches were not £20 knock offs but well made from good reliable materials. And the attention to detail is superb ! Apart from the SD which had for sure an ETA 2824 movement the others were fitted with a re-made Valjoux 7750 which looked the same as its counterpart although Im informed they can be unreliable but easily serviced!
Each 7750 also had the rotor inscribed with the brands name/logo , quite impressive.
As a dealer I find this quite worrying in as much as to the untrained eye these watches could be passed as the genuine watch quite easily. Comparing the dials , bands even the model number/part numbers stamped into the case etc make no mistake the quality if these replicas is second to none. They are obviously made using technology to copy the original watches!
What is also an eye opener is the price these watches are being made and sold for when you consider the prices charged by the original brands when to all intense and purposes they are both using the same materials apart from more stringent QC procedures and a few extra small bits here and there!!
I am certainly not condoning this industry , and remain tongue in cheek about the Myths and Tales that get thrown about , but it is certainly indicative of the world we live in and the way we have allowed Asia to have such a powerful hold on our manufacturing and the abuse that has followed.

Watch-Collector
The SD has an ETA 2836-2 (made in China). It's probably the best replica being made at the moment... some saturation diver took one down for a laugh and it survived the extreme pressures and corrosive water. The only way you'll tell the difference is the direction of travel of the crown to change the date (opposite directions on Rolex and ETA movements), the laser-cut crown imprint at 6 is always too visible on reps, and the crown guards can be a bit too thick.

You need to be a watch geek to spot any of these things though. My cousin has been through loads of expensive watches (City trader) but isn't a 'geek' - it's more of a one-upmanship thing with his colleagues. He couldn't spot the rep Franck Muller (even though he was wearing the genuine), couldn't spot the Sub (even though the mag cyclops was obviously off-centre), and swore that the SD was genuine.

I agree, the best watches are good watches in their own right - some need a bit of final QC but the real danger is that a 'watch geek' who knows where the differences lie can take a 'top' replica, modify it a bit to get rid of obvious tells, and then sell it to an enthusiastic but non-expert watch buyer with more money than sense like my cousin. This is why I have such a mental double-think about the replicas - they are fun because I can strip them and learn how to modify and service real ETA movements (whether built in China or Switzerland, the components are the same and interchangeable) without potential for damage to an expensive genuine watch. My first two efforts at dismantling an ETA movement completely ended in disaster smile but it's not expensive with reps. But on the other hand, they offer the criminal the opportunity to modify and sell on as genuine, which even though I'm pretty amoral, I *do* have a serious problem with. So it's good and bad, unfortunately.

And as per the 'wrist shot' thread, you'll notice that I've only shown photos of my genuine watches and none of the replicas that I claim to own (some of which are in pieces!!!) - I wouldn't ever claim that a rep is genuine, regardless of how good it is. It's fun to ask someone who claims to be a watch geek whether it's fake or real though... so far it's a 50% strike rate amongst my friends. And nobody has spotted the SD.

But I'm not allowing tricks like adjusting the date or removing the caseback smile

The real shocker, which winds me up (hehe ) is how Swiss brands can charge thousands for watches that can be made in Asia for £150. Watch-Collector's post is accurate - the markings, construction and materials used in the top-end replicas are of high quality, and assuming the Chinese cartel aren't making these things at a huge loss, it does make one consider exactly how much pure profit the Swiss are charging...

666 TRS

36 posts

73 months

[news] 
Monday 4th August 2008 quote quote all
altho i have no experience of the sites u mention i have a little experience with replica wathes.
im lucky enough to own a genuine anniversary edition breitling navitimer for which i paid the best part of £5k for.
whilst visiting family in jakarta (where everythin is fake unless bought from a franchised dealer) i spotted an exact copy of my breitling for sale in a small shop at an indoor market type place.
curiosity got the better of me so i went inside and asked to have a look at it.
i was suprised by how good it was, exact weight and feel, all the markings, solid build quality, workin chronos, and according to the shop owner, japanese made using some genuine parts and of highest quality for a replica. real watch in 1 hand, replica in other, only an expert could tell the diffrence.
how much for this? a tiny £22! so i decided to take it.
i now use it for times like when put playing sports or other such times when i dont want any risk of damage to my real one.
for a cheap replica it has been great, over 3years on and its still in perfect working condition, just like new.
i guess if you were to wear 1 of these every day in all conditions then it may not last as well as my 1 has.
now im not saying go out and buy 1 and pretend its something its not, always buy the best u can afford, branded or not, but i can see why the good qualit replicas have such a strong market and i guess they can serve some purpose.

Shuvi

861 posts

91 months

[news] 
Monday 4th August 2008 quote quote all
@Cyberface.

You've spent your entire time in this sub-forum telling folks about fakes, cool.

You appear to be proud of this knowledge, cool.

You're a tw................


..............iv'e died of boredom and lack of pomposity.



Watch-Collector

213 posts

80 months

[news] 
Monday 4th August 2008 quote quote all
Well isnt it good to hear somebody with something Intelligent to say....Tw.....

Wc

Shuvi

861 posts

91 months

[news] 
Monday 4th August 2008 quote quote all
Watch-Collector said:
Well isnt it good to hear somebody with something Intelligent to say

Wc
Yup.

Edit for truth

Edited by Shuvi on Monday 4th August 22:13

Shuvi

861 posts

91 months

[news] 
Monday 4th August 2008 quote quote all
Pistonheads is full of folks that are more concerned about the percieved status of a watch than any intrinsic value it might have.

Except a very few manufacturers, ALL, high end watches are produced by groups such as Richemont, LVH and Swatch. Patek, for instance, are now a mere subsiduary, and in the cheapest of their range use ETA.

A couple of brands stand out as real, some, folks would reject them as worthless. Maurice Lacroix, for instance, a 40 year old company that has/does use quartz and ETA movments at the lower price points, but innovates and is one of the few companies pushing the art of the watchmaker forward, Memior anyone?

Rolex is often derided here, but how many folks post, telling us they've put their name down for a Daytona? You can buy a Daytona at any Rolex dealer today, just not a stainless steel one, because every wanabee has his fecking name down for an SS. I bought a beautiful gold and croc' for virtually the same price as you'd pay to buy a Daytona someone has waited for, for years then sold to a tw@t. But a Rolex is a quality product with a history.

Rolex and the jeweller Cartier, kind of, between them, invented the modern wristwatch. Here, Cartier is considered a bling, overpriced, knownothing fools brand?

Panerai has to be the biggest con ever staged, a genuine Panerai is exactly the same as a decent £90 fake, EXACTLY the same. Panerai has NO history, Panerai made a few crappy watches for the Italian navy years ago... so what?

Seiko make the best watches in the world. What stops them getting the respect they deserve, is that you can buy a Seiko for £10. Rotary make the best Swiss watches in the world. What stops them getting the respct they deserve, is you can buy one for £60.

So why is PH full of fake watch experts?

Because PH is full of Daily Mail reading, right wingers that want to BE SEEN as something else.



On reading what I've written, I see it's a bit disjointed.... but 'er indoors is in hospital with, 'womens trouble' so I've typed this whilst opening the can and slaving over the microwave all on my own
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