Driving tip for Porsche 911`s
Discussion
I hear a lot of people talking about what to do if you "lose" the back end of a 911 when driving. Generally the advice is to "keep your foot rooted to the gas and turn into the spin", ie. if the car`s trying to spin to the right turn the wheel to the left.
On the road I`d think that advice would probably cause more problems in 80% of cases.
The reason most people loose the car is because they are accelerating too hard and the back end loses grip through a wheel-spining. If you`re turning the steering wheel when this happens the back of the car will swing round. Accelerating more will in fact increase the "wheel spin" at the back an worsten the situation.
This type of spin is most common when accelerating from low speed, particularly in a low gear like on a roundabout or slip road for instance.
The way to sort things out is to lift off the gas and try and balance the throttle so the wheel spinning stops. Don`t completely lift off the gas or brake.
The time you need to keep your foot on the power is when you`re cornering at high speed in a high gear on a good gripping surface and the back end starts to break away. In that instance applying power in effect loads the rear of the car with more weight and helps the tyres to grip. Once again never brake or lift off the power as this will effectively lighten the weight on the back tyres.
Sorry if this all sounds obvious and basic stuff but I`ll bet there are a load of people reading the forum who don`t differentiate between the two types of spinning and just remeber the advice to accelerate more.
In reality most spins occur accelerating from low speed and turning, mother nature and papa Porsche combine to help you avoid the high speed spin. Mother nature because you shit yourself when approaching a bend at high speed and tend to slow down before you arrive there. Papa Porsche because he engineers the car so that it understeers (you feel the steering wheel go light)first before it oversteers (the back end swings round).
If you do feel the steering wheel go light then once again very gently lift off the gas a little to balance the power (again don`t lift off fully or brake), and turn out of the bend if you can to help re-gain front grip, (ie. if you`re turning to the right then move the wheel to the left a bit to "open the bend up" as much as possible.
Best bit of advice - avoid the car sliding in the first place by driving slower, making sure your tyres are in good condition and reading the road. If there is a petrol station on a roundabout or junction don`t be too surprised if there is some residual diesel on the road surface from overfilled vehicles !
Keep smiling - Henry
On the road I`d think that advice would probably cause more problems in 80% of cases.
The reason most people loose the car is because they are accelerating too hard and the back end loses grip through a wheel-spining. If you`re turning the steering wheel when this happens the back of the car will swing round. Accelerating more will in fact increase the "wheel spin" at the back an worsten the situation.
This type of spin is most common when accelerating from low speed, particularly in a low gear like on a roundabout or slip road for instance.
The way to sort things out is to lift off the gas and try and balance the throttle so the wheel spinning stops. Don`t completely lift off the gas or brake.
The time you need to keep your foot on the power is when you`re cornering at high speed in a high gear on a good gripping surface and the back end starts to break away. In that instance applying power in effect loads the rear of the car with more weight and helps the tyres to grip. Once again never brake or lift off the power as this will effectively lighten the weight on the back tyres.
Sorry if this all sounds obvious and basic stuff but I`ll bet there are a load of people reading the forum who don`t differentiate between the two types of spinning and just remeber the advice to accelerate more.
In reality most spins occur accelerating from low speed and turning, mother nature and papa Porsche combine to help you avoid the high speed spin. Mother nature because you shit yourself when approaching a bend at high speed and tend to slow down before you arrive there. Papa Porsche because he engineers the car so that it understeers (you feel the steering wheel go light)first before it oversteers (the back end swings round).
If you do feel the steering wheel go light then once again very gently lift off the gas a little to balance the power (again don`t lift off fully or brake), and turn out of the bend if you can to help re-gain front grip, (ie. if you`re turning to the right then move the wheel to the left a bit to "open the bend up" as much as possible.
Best bit of advice - avoid the car sliding in the first place by driving slower, making sure your tyres are in good condition and reading the road. If there is a petrol station on a roundabout or junction don`t be too surprised if there is some residual diesel on the road surface from overfilled vehicles !
Keep smiling - Henry
Quite agree, Mr Firman.
Some people can be very clumsy with the go pedal.
The big advantage of a good 911 is the "feel " you get through the steering wheel/ seat of your pants. In the dry, I certainly like to explore the limits of grip at the rear, where you can feel the tires "nibbling" at the road for grip.
The main thing for most people drivign 911 for the first time is to look ahead and think ! Avoiding having to turn in on the brakes is a good idea, and reading the road ahead helps.
One thing about driving early 911's still bothers me though:
What is the best way to handle adverse camber bends going downhill ? I happen to live near a great road which I love driving up, but hate driving down ! Its pretty steep and I am rarely on the throttle . My C4 is OK ( PSM you see) but an old 3.2 I had was pretty unhappy ( as was the driver) !
What is the best way to handle such a road, especially in the wet ?
Some people can be very clumsy with the go pedal.
The big advantage of a good 911 is the "feel " you get through the steering wheel/ seat of your pants. In the dry, I certainly like to explore the limits of grip at the rear, where you can feel the tires "nibbling" at the road for grip.
The main thing for most people drivign 911 for the first time is to look ahead and think ! Avoiding having to turn in on the brakes is a good idea, and reading the road ahead helps.
One thing about driving early 911's still bothers me though:
What is the best way to handle adverse camber bends going downhill ? I happen to live near a great road which I love driving up, but hate driving down ! Its pretty steep and I am rarely on the throttle . My C4 is OK ( PSM you see) but an old 3.2 I had was pretty unhappy ( as was the driver) !
What is the best way to handle such a road, especially in the wet ?
The fact that the bend is adverse camber doesn`t really matter. All that means is that the car will lose grip at lower lateral G than if the road were flat or positive camber.
Remember that when you go downhill several things happen. Firstly there is more weight to the front wheels and less to the rears. And secondly as you press on the gas the car will accelerate faster but at the same time putting less weight (for the given amount of acceleration) on the back wheels. Going up the hill it`s the other way round. Just to keep a constant speed your car`s back end will have more weight on it than if you were traveling at a constant speed on a flat road.
What usually catches people out coming round a down hill bend is that the car "runs away with them" and they have to brake or lift off the gas half way round the bend.
Paddock hill at Brands Hatch is a perfect example. Poeple go down the hill try and lift off then the back end comes round and the car oversteers to the right. The trick is to turn in and try to be on the gas from the apex then hold the gas flat all the way. That way you`re giving the back end the best possible chance.
Once again better to come out of the corner a little too slowly thinking you`ve "got a bit in reserve" than realising mid corner you`re going too fast.
Henry
Remember that when you go downhill several things happen. Firstly there is more weight to the front wheels and less to the rears. And secondly as you press on the gas the car will accelerate faster but at the same time putting less weight (for the given amount of acceleration) on the back wheels. Going up the hill it`s the other way round. Just to keep a constant speed your car`s back end will have more weight on it than if you were traveling at a constant speed on a flat road.
What usually catches people out coming round a down hill bend is that the car "runs away with them" and they have to brake or lift off the gas half way round the bend.
Paddock hill at Brands Hatch is a perfect example. Poeple go down the hill try and lift off then the back end comes round and the car oversteers to the right. The trick is to turn in and try to be on the gas from the apex then hold the gas flat all the way. That way you`re giving the back end the best possible chance.
Once again better to come out of the corner a little too slowly thinking you`ve "got a bit in reserve" than realising mid corner you`re going too fast.
Henry
Henry-F said:
Once again better to come out of the corner a little too slowly thinking you`ve "got a bit in reserve" than realising mid corner you`re going too fast.
Isn't that the truth. Paddock Hill bend - what a rush - but you can't afford to badger it up. How to become a track-day-pariah in one easy lesson. If one wishes to goon with oversteer Clearways would seem to be the place for it...
toppstuff said:
What is the best way to handle adverse camber bends going downhill ? I happen to live near a great road which I love driving up, but hate driving down ! Its pretty steep and I am rarely on the throttle . My C4 is OK ( PSM you see) but an old 3.2 I had was pretty unhappy ( as was the driver) !
What is the best way to handle such a road, especially in the wet ?
Practice the Craner Curves a few times at Donington Park to get the idea. I did, in a GT3.
Basically, slow in, fast out, ie make sure you are 'driving' through them. Don't mash the go pedal, but progressively apply the power to keep the weight to the rear.
Use very smooth turn in/steering inputs and be very gentle on all controls.
You may also need to experiment with the line you take. Maybe go in a bit deeper into the bend to ensure that you don't drift wide on the exit, causing you to lift off.
In the wet, go even slower in and slow-ish out. Be hyper sensitive on all inputs.
Definitely agree on sensitive inputs in the wet.This is a great way to learn to drive the car, even though you can be less sensitive on dry surfaces with sticky tyres.
It is a good idea to push the limits on an airfield in wet conditions,this lets you know the messages the car gives you before letting go, you also you learn how far out the car will go once you have lost it.Having done this a few times, you will definitely drive drive more sensitively on the road.
Although you do drive 2wd non PSM 911 slower in the wet,they can still be very rewarding due to the communication back through a well set up car.
If you must drive fast in the rain,then get an Imprezza!
It is a good idea to push the limits on an airfield in wet conditions,this lets you know the messages the car gives you before letting go, you also you learn how far out the car will go once you have lost it.Having done this a few times, you will definitely drive drive more sensitively on the road.
Although you do drive 2wd non PSM 911 slower in the wet,they can still be very rewarding due to the communication back through a well set up car.
If you must drive fast in the rain,then get an Imprezza!
A parental warning. Obviously don`t try any of this stuff at home kids !
Seriously - all the talk of lines through corners, drifting and so on are only ever applicable on a race track or closed circuit where you can use the whole of the road width.
Your road fun licence (assuming you bother) only allows you to use half the road. Not only that people using transport systems called walking, cycling, horse riding and so on also share the space. You will look a tw*t if you come into contact with any of the above. Very few roads have run off areas as good as the Craners either !
The delicate inputs are really applicable at all times, not just in the wet. Try not to upset the car by either asking it to change direction too harshly or change your mind half way through a change of direction. Driving a car is a lot like making love to a beautiful woman !
Swiss Henry.
Seriously - all the talk of lines through corners, drifting and so on are only ever applicable on a race track or closed circuit where you can use the whole of the road width.
Your road fun licence (assuming you bother) only allows you to use half the road. Not only that people using transport systems called walking, cycling, horse riding and so on also share the space. You will look a tw*t if you come into contact with any of the above. Very few roads have run off areas as good as the Craners either !
The delicate inputs are really applicable at all times, not just in the wet. Try not to upset the car by either asking it to change direction too harshly or change your mind half way through a change of direction. Driving a car is a lot like making love to a beautiful woman !
Swiss Henry.
MauriceC2S said:
Second vote for Craner - fast in, faster out ! Fabulous in my 993, but in Mel's Cup car it was fantastic!! Thanks again Mel ..
Cheers, Maurice
Well, thankyou Maurice -fastest I've been thru Craner -was a bit wow, wasn't it!!! -shame your added bulk b*ggered the FNS wheel bearing though
Melv
Henry, did you mean oversteers to the right? Paddock is adverse camber - i.e. drops away to the left. In my experience, the car oversteers to the left at the bottom.
I'd say that Druids is the safest corner at Brands to hoon around on - provided there's no one behind you of course...
I'd say that Druids is the safest corner at Brands to hoon around on - provided there's no one behind you of course...
Rubystone. Yes the car oversteers to the right. In other words the back of the car slips away towards the outside of the (right handed) corner and the car "turns" to the right.
Druids is actually one of the most risky corners at Brands. Certainly it hosts lots of contact between competitors and exits from the circuit. It is the slowest part of the track and so you feel more confident. The risks are running out of brakes going into the corner. Carrying too much speed into the corner and spinning or putting too much power down too soon and hitting either wall as you exit towards Graham Hill bend.
A lovely circuit with bags of character. Every time you go there it seems to get more undulated !
Keep your eyes peeled for the Porsche event of the decade being held there next year !!
Henry
Druids is actually one of the most risky corners at Brands. Certainly it hosts lots of contact between competitors and exits from the circuit. It is the slowest part of the track and so you feel more confident. The risks are running out of brakes going into the corner. Carrying too much speed into the corner and spinning or putting too much power down too soon and hitting either wall as you exit towards Graham Hill bend.
A lovely circuit with bags of character. Every time you go there it seems to get more undulated !
Keep your eyes peeled for the Porsche event of the decade being held there next year !!
Henry
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