Getting a penalty clause in a building contract
Discussion
s4avant said:
If there is a penalty clause in the contract, the contractor will know it is there a will adjust his price accordingly.
Best advice is to forget the penalty, find a contractor that you can trust and then get on with the job. Some flexibility must be allowed for the likes of inclement weather and the late delivery of materials by sub-contractors etc.
Wise words mate - they will always get you in the end, so get a good one to start with.Best advice is to forget the penalty, find a contractor that you can trust and then get on with the job. Some flexibility must be allowed for the likes of inclement weather and the late delivery of materials by sub-contractors etc.
Ours appear to have moved in with us, but they are doing a blinding job, and I'd rather they were working to a spec than a date.
Carl_Spackler said:
sleep envy said:
GT03ROB said:
LD's is what I'm used to & there is no need to demonstrate that you have incurred the costs or suffered a loss, so maybe LAD's area new term in UK construction contracts.
yes you do have to demonstrate the cost eg;LADs in the contract - £10k/week or part there of
Actual cost/loss to client - £7.5k/week or part there of
he will only awarded the £7.5k/week or part there of retrospectively as you need to determine the total cost, the contractor will challenge the application and the employer has to substantiate the claim in court
as I said it is not a punitive clause
ETA - it's been like this since I first looked at JCT80 many years ago
Edited by sleep envy on Tuesday 31st March 17:16
You only ever have provable costs if for some reason time has not become at large and you dont have pre ascertained L&AD's
sleep envy said:
Carl_Spackler said:
Interesting, on the very few occations we've had these levied, the client has just deducted them from from the interim certificate (Scotland) and we've spent the next months fighting to get them back, always have mind you, Loss and Expense suddenly becomes mega bucks
what contract was that under and who was administering it?Carl_Spackler said:
sleep envy said:
Carl_Spackler said:
Interesting, on the very few occations we've had these levied, the client has just deducted them from from the interim certificate (Scotland) and we've spent the next months fighting to get them back, always have mind you, Loss and Expense suddenly becomes mega bucks
what contract was that under and who was administering it?sleep envy said:
Carl_Spackler said:
sleep envy said:
Carl_Spackler said:
Interesting, on the very few occations we've had these levied, the client has just deducted them from from the interim certificate (Scotland) and we've spent the next months fighting to get them back, always have mind you, Loss and Expense suddenly becomes mega bucks
what contract was that under and who was administering it?Mr Green said:
I have a place abroad and when ever we get a quote for a building job they usually say it will take 1 week to complete the work but more often than not it takes 2 or 3 weeks. They give you the impression that 4 guys will be working on it but only 2 show up.
I would like to include a penalty clause in the contract/quote next time to prevent this sort of thing happening has anyone any experience of this?
It's easy enough to write one BUT if you are abroad I don't rate your chances very highly of enforcing it, I can only deal with UK law. I would like to include a penalty clause in the contract/quote next time to prevent this sort of thing happening has anyone any experience of this?
You just put something like Cost of contract = X if completion date = Y. For each day over Y a penalty charge of Z will be levied by YOUR NAME. Both parties, by signing below, agree to this clause being enforceable.
See what happens.
hahithestevieboy said:
You can only apply L&AD's if the contract administrator (probably the architect) has issued a non completion certificate and then a (late) practical completion certificate.
yep, the actual time 'in delay' needs to be determined, and can only be done at completion, otherwise how much does he know how to levy?as an aside, Arch's make for the worst CA's as they never compile the contracts docs
As a contractor I think I have enough experience to give a qualified response to this and my response is if you have to refer to contract terms you are fooked.
I have set up deals with my subcontractors at times with a completion bonus, this tends to focus there attention but can cause anxiety between trades on site.
I expect to be fooked about by the trades and build in contingency for it. Find a good contractor and stick with them that is my advice, price is not always the key.
I have set up deals with my subcontractors at times with a completion bonus, this tends to focus there attention but can cause anxiety between trades on site.
I expect to be fooked about by the trades and build in contingency for it. Find a good contractor and stick with them that is my advice, price is not always the key.
sleep envy said:
before everyone gets carried away LADs cannot be levied as a penalty - they are in their nature as they are called; liquidated and ascertained damages i.e. you can only claim (up to a pre agreed value) any cost you have incurred due to late completion of the work due to the fault/cause of the contractor
Spot on regarding being levied as a penalty. If an LD amount is deemed to be punative it will be overturned.LD's are actually a major advantage to contractors in many circumstances. They enable the contractors to limit exposure for non-performance. I am used to them where the loss potentially sustained by late delivery is disproportiante to the contract value. In these circumstance any correlation between the LD value & the actual loss would such that the cost of construction would go through the roof & the contractor would be solely interested in EOT claims. LD values may typically by limited to 1 or 2% of contract value.
Get yourself a copy of the JCT 2005 Contracts and pick which one is most suited towards your type of work (I would be guessing Minor Works)
In the contract particulars there will section called LAD's Liquidated Damages, Damages for Lateness etc.
You can insert a figure/rate for what you assume to be the likely damamges if the contract is to overun. i.e. £2000 per week
The contractor must accept this when he signs the contract.
Note :- make sure all the correct Notices and Certificates are awarded inline with in the contract docs
In the contract particulars there will section called LAD's Liquidated Damages, Damages for Lateness etc.
You can insert a figure/rate for what you assume to be the likely damamges if the contract is to overun. i.e. £2000 per week
The contractor must accept this when he signs the contract.
Note :- make sure all the correct Notices and Certificates are awarded inline with in the contract docs
GT03ROB said:
LD's are actually a major advantage to contractors in many circumstances. They enable the contractors to limit exposure for non-performance. I am used to them where the loss potentially sustained by late delivery is disproportiante to the contract value. In these circumstance any correlation between the LD value & the actual loss would such that the cost of construction would go through the roof & the contractor would be solely interested in EOT claims. LD values may typically by limited to 1 or 2% of contract value.
depends what the job is, the loss/cost suffered by the employer and the impact it has to themI have a number of schemes on site at present which have £Nil as LADs - the stick the client wields is the framework agreement the contractor has signed up to and the risk to future projects
just out of interest, if the CA issues a non-completion certificate due to a project over run of 2 weeks and it is proven the delay was due to a sub, would you pass the claim on?
Yeh technically its has to be "calculated", but there is no accurate calculation or formula to evaluate the loss that the client will incurr from delays as it wholly depends on the nature of the delay and the extent of it. I.e. Large delays on industrial units may start to affect rental agreements, however a small delay in groundworks may result in a stat.authority not being able to make a connection on the arranged date etc.etc
From what I have heard from ex-employees of large firms and first hand experience is that Clients normally enter a figure in which they are happy it will cover even the most extensive costs.
From what I have heard from ex-employees of large firms and first hand experience is that Clients normally enter a figure in which they are happy it will cover even the most extensive costs.
Crikey, there are alot of QS's on here, but I would suggest that none of the JCT contracts would be appropriate for week long jobs abroad (especially domestic). They are too hard to administer for a punter
So in answer to the op's question. No there is not (penalties can only be levied by a court of law in england at least). It would be difficult to sue the contractor for loss and expense as this would be provable (did he actually have any loss and expense - i doubt it). L&AD's at least in england are not doable (specifically excluded) from domestic building work. The best you can hope for is a bonus for completion on time but most contractors would not reduce their price. References from happy customers are the best way forward for the OP
So in answer to the op's question. No there is not (penalties can only be levied by a court of law in england at least). It would be difficult to sue the contractor for loss and expense as this would be provable (did he actually have any loss and expense - i doubt it). L&AD's at least in england are not doable (specifically excluded) from domestic building work. The best you can hope for is a bonus for completion on time but most contractors would not reduce their price. References from happy customers are the best way forward for the OP
sleep envy said:
GT03ROB said:
LD's are actually a major advantage to contractors in many circumstances. They enable the contractors to limit exposure for non-performance. I am used to them where the loss potentially sustained by late delivery is disproportiante to the contract value. In these circumstance any correlation between the LD value & the actual loss would such that the cost of construction would go through the roof & the contractor would be solely interested in EOT claims. LD values may typically by limited to 1 or 2% of contract value.
depends what the job is, the loss/cost suffered by the employer and the impact it has to themI have a number of schemes on site at present which have £Nil as LADs - the stick the client wields is the framework agreement the contractor has signed up to and the risk to future projects
just out of interest, if the CA issues a non-completion certificate due to a project over run of 2 weeks and it is proven the delay was due to a sub, would you pass the claim on?
Perfomance bonuses & incentive schemes are however becoming more common with the more sophisticated clients. Far better to let the contractor earn double his profit margin by paying a bonus and bring the facility in a few months early. The cost to the client is minimal relative to the return.
Having worked a $1bn contract where I had a bonus that was a proportion of the value of product shipped, it was amazing how creative we got to deliver early.
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