Transverse 4WD Gearbox

[Fat_Panda]

I am looking for transverse 4wd gearbox with the output shaft to the rear diff (in a front engined application) on the opposite side to the main driveshafts.

This is for use in a mid4 vehicle and I realise there are complications in using the gearbox the wrong way around, but I cannot find any transverse mid-engined 4wd car to use the gearbox out of other than the Peugeot 205 T16, and somehow I doubt thats really an option.

Anyway, this is the layout I'm looking for:

(or similar)

The only other possibility may be to convert a standard front engine 4wd gearbox, but I cannot think how or how easily this would be done...

[Zad]

One other option might be the Escort RS2000 4x4

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/paulgrs.greenbank/rs2...

I suppose the same fundamental problem will be there, but it is something to look at anyway.

[fluffnik]

Mitsubishi have been fabulously inconsistent when deciding which way an engine should rotate and which end the 'box should go on when building transverse engined 4wd cars...

Worth a look?

[deetes]

I believe that the Honda CRX would be suitable, as an American company was using this in a 4x4 Mini converion.

There was a link somewhere on here. If I find it I'l post it on this thread.

[Toecutter]

I think the Honda CRV 4x4 box would meet your requirement.

[beejay]

Hmmm, been through this recently haven't we

The infamous 4x4 VTEC Mini with the CRV drivetrain doesn't really help



The usual problem like you say of the rear driveshaft poking out the wrong side. Unless you could flip the housing on the gearbox providing the drive to the rear over and run the rear driveshaft under the engine/gearbox.

I'm sure the layout you're after must been used by someone other than Peugeot over the years, nothing obvious springs to mind tho!

[Incorrigible]

Lancia delta is an obvious choice. Loads in the scrappy rusted to bits too

[Daston]

Celica GT4?

[dalla]

Audi A3 Quattro/ Golf 4 motion ?

[chuntington101]

Fat_Panda said:

I am looking for transverse 4wd gearbox with the output shaft to the rear diff (in a front engined application) on the opposite side to the main driveshafts.

This is for use in a mid4 vehicle and I realise there are complications in using the gearbox the wrong way around, but I cannot find any transverse mid-engined 4wd car to use the gearbox out of other than the Peugeot 205 T16, and somehow I doubt thats really an option.

Anyway, this is the layout I'm looking for:

(or similar)

The only other possibility may be to convert a standard front engine 4wd gearbox, but I cannot think how or how easily this would be done...

Is there no way you could fit a conventional 4WD box? Just thinking that then you could mid mount it and just flip the diffs....

Alternatively how about you run 2 engines??? one in the fornt and one in the back!

Chris.

[Zad]

Unfortunately running twin engines is illegal. When the superb Chaos Crew took part in C4's Scrappy Races, they had to remove their 2nd engine for road use.

[chuntington101]

Zad said:

Unfortunately running twin engines is illegal. When the superb Chaos Crew took part in C4's Scrappy Races, they had to remove their 2nd engine for road use.

i thought that was not the case...i have seen guy with twin engined cars that have them on the road..... can anyone clear this up?

Chris.

[Fat_Panda]

Hi everyone thanks for the replies,

beejay said:

Hmmm, been through this recently haven't we

indeed we have but i'm pretty sure no real anwser was suggested in the end...

Unfortunately as I am building this car as a special stage rally car, 2 engines is not within the regulations.

I must say that Zad has gone some way to clearing up the reason why you don't see any transverse gearboxes with the prop on the otherside of the engine. From the cross section of the rs2000 gearbox, you can clearly see it is just the standard 2wd gearbox with a transfer box bolted onto it. As I would imagine most car manufacturers do it like this (so much easier than designing a proper 4wd gearbox), no wonder there aren't many like I'm looking for.

As such, I may have to consider the option of using a conventional gearbox upside down, or forking out for a Sadev SL90-20

I'd rather not consider the cost of the sadev (although I must admit I haven't looked at the price of one so i'm only assuming it's bloody expensive) so what are the options with a standard 4wd gearbox. Is it possible to run the gearbox out of say... a subaru impreza upside down?

[Milky Bar Kid]

chuntington101 said:

Zad said:

Unfortunately running twin engines is illegal. When the superb Chaos Crew took part in C4's Scrappy Races, they had to remove their 2nd engine for road use.

i thought that was not the case...i have seen guy with twin engined cars that have them on the road..... can anyone clear this up?

Chris.

It's not having two engines that is illegal in itself. It's illegal to have one engine running each axle. This means that is is quite legal to have an engine running each wheel, and there is even an F1 look-a-like kit car that does just this, although the name escapes me at the moment.
As for getting away with it, how many coppers are likely to spot that you have both running on the road? OR even know how to check that you have both running? IIRC the Chaos Crew had to remove one of their props, but they were being filmed for a prime time TV show......

[beejay]

Fat_Panda said:

I must say that Zad has gone some way to clearing up the reason why you don't see any transverse gearboxes with the prop on the otherside of the engine. From the cross section of the rs2000 gearbox, you can clearly see it is just the standard 2wd gearbox with a transfer box bolted onto it. As I would imagine most car manufacturers do it like this (so much easier than designing a proper 4wd gearbox), no wonder there aren't many like I'm looking for.

True, plus most have the engine ahead of the front axle line so the driveline is directed behind them, whereas you want the engine to be between the axles with drive going front and rear

Fat_Panda said:

As such, I may have to consider the option of using a conventional gearbox upside down, or forking out for a Sadev SL90-20
I'd rather not consider the cost of the sadev (although I must admit I haven't looked at the price of one so i'm only assuming it's bloody expensive) so what are the options with a standard 4wd gearbox. Is it possible to run the gearbox out of say... a subaru impreza upside down?

Not sure how an impreza upside down will help? Engine is head of the front axle, front diff/axle is just behind the clutch and it presents a rear prop coupling on the rear of the casing (AFAIK anyway!), can't see how you could work that into a mid engine 4WD setup?

If you're looking at longitudinal mid engined, then possibly sierra 4x4 or landrover might work, if you could attach the rear diff directly to the rear of the gearbox. Still puts the rear axle line a long way back from the engine so unlikely you'll have room to package that in?

Audi 4x4 gearboxes look similar to your sadev, but with a rear prop coupling sticking out of the back. Attach something to that rear coupling, as the sadev looks like it does, to move it over to the side and direct it forward and you're done. Could use a chain drive from a transfer box (sierra/landrover again) to do that. Don't know if that would be cheaper or as durable, depends what's more important
Thinking about it you could do that with your impreza gearbox too.

Or, take a gearbox to suit a longitudinal mid engine rear wheel drive car (UN1, Hewland, subaru FWD, Audi FWD maybe...). That sorts your rear axle out. On the mini pic above there's a box providing the bevel drive between the gearbox and rear propshaft. Adapt that arrangement, somehow, onto that gearbox and you can connect a propshaft to it and run it forwards. Ford do a similar thing with a bolt on unit that splines onto the diff cage, with the offside drive shaft passing through it. However you would have to live with a 50:50 torque split unless you used a haldex/viscous/some other fancy front diff.

Or there might be a more obvious donor for a longitudinal mid engine 4x4. Hope the above makes sense as its getting late :P

[chuntington101]

Fat_Panda said:

Hi everyone thanks for the replies,

beejay said:

Hmmm, been through this recently haven't we

indeed we have but i'm pretty sure no real anwser was suggested in the end...

Unfortunately as I am building this car as a special stage rally car, 2 engines is not within the regulations.

I must say that Zad has gone some way to clearing up the reason why you don't see any transverse gearboxes with the prop on the otherside of the engine. From the cross section of the rs2000 gearbox, you can clearly see it is just the standard 2wd gearbox with a transfer box bolted onto it. As I would imagine most car manufacturers do it like this (so much easier than designing a proper 4wd gearbox), no wonder there aren't many like I'm looking for.

As such, I may have to consider the option of using a conventional gearbox upside down, or forking out for a Sadev SL90-20

I'd rather not consider the cost of the sadev (although I must admit I haven't looked at the price of one so i'm only assuming it's bloody expensive) so what are the options with a standard 4wd gearbox. Is it possible to run the gearbox out of say... a subaru impreza upside down?

That looks a nice bit of kit! looks very similar to the GTR arangement.

Also what engine are you planing on running?? Have you thought about using a gutted FWD box????? you would need some very low geard diffs (prob 1:1) though. i have seen this done on scrapheap but never in real life.....

Chris.

[chuntington101]

Milky Bar Kid said:

chuntington101 said:

Zad said:

Unfortunately running twin engines is illegal. When the superb Chaos Crew took part in C4's Scrappy Races, they had to remove their 2nd engine for road use.

i thought that was not the case...i have seen guy with twin engined cars that have them on the road..... can anyone clear this up?

Chris.

It's not having two engines that is illegal in itself. It's illegal to have one engine running each axle. This means that is is quite legal to have an engine running each wheel, and there is even an F1 look-a-like kit car that does just this, although the name escapes me at the moment.
As for getting away with it, how many coppers are likely to spot that you have both running on the road? OR even know how to check that you have both running? IIRC the Chaos Crew had to remove one of their props, but they were being filmed for a prime time TV show......

Yeah i guess most cops aren't going to give a rat sh!t as long as your not speading. lol wonder what the MOT gusy would say?

Be nice to see some pics/spec of that F1 like car with a motor for each wheel.

Chris.

[Fat_Panda]

beejay said:

Not sure how an impreza upside down will help? Engine is head of the front axle, front diff/axle is just behind the clutch and it presents a rear prop coupling on the rear of the casing (AFAIK anyway!), can't see how you could work that into a mid engine 4WD setup?

If you're looking at longitudinal mid engined, then possibly sierra 4x4 or landrover might work, if you could attach the rear diff directly to the rear of the gearbox. Still puts the rear axle line a long way back from the engine so unlikely you'll have room to package that in?

I'd assumed the subaru gearbox was similar to the sierra 4x4 arrangemant, so sorry if that was confusing. The sierra 4x4 arrangement sounds like it might work but like you say packaging might be an issue. There is quite a sizable propshaft tunnel in the mk2 mr2, if you can call it that considering there is no propshaft....

I just have to work out how much and will be required to fit it all in.

chuntington101 said:

Also what engine are you planing on running?? Have you thought about using a gutted FWD box????? you would need some very low geard diffs (prob 1:1) though. i have seen this done on scrapheap but never in real life.....

The plan is to use a nissan VQ35 but destroked to 2.5L and fitted with a turbocharger (thats the plan anyway).

I was hoping to use a fwd gearbox but unfortunately a standard gearbox in a 4wd application in the back of an mr2 would put the engine behind the axles. not so good for weight distribution....

[Milky Bar Kid]

chuntington101 said:

Milky Bar Kid said:

chuntington101 said:

Zad said:

Unfortunately running twin engines is illegal. When the superb Chaos Crew took part in C4's Scrappy Races, they had to remove their 2nd engine for road use.

i thought that was not the case...i have seen guy with twin engined cars that have them on the road..... can anyone clear this up?

Chris.

It's not having two engines that is illegal in itself. It's illegal to have one engine running each axle. This means that is is quite legal to have an engine running each wheel, and there is even an F1 look-a-like kit car that does just this, although the name escapes me at the moment.
As for getting away with it, how many coppers are likely to spot that you have both running on the road? OR even know how to check that you have both running? IIRC the Chaos Crew had to remove one of their props, but they were being filmed for a prime time TV show......

Yeah i guess most cops aren't going to give a rat sh!t as long as your not speading. lol wonder what the MOT gusy would say?

Be nice to see some pics/spec of that F1 like car with a motor for each wheel.

Chris.

here you go.

[peat785]

Fat_Panda said:

I am looking for transverse 4wd gearbox with the output shaft to the rear diff (in a front engined application) on the opposite side to the main driveshafts.

This is for use in a mid4 vehicle and I realise there are complications in using the gearbox the wrong way around, but I cannot find any transverse mid-engined 4wd car to use the gearbox out of other than the Peugeot 205 T16, and somehow I doubt thats really an option.

Anyway, this is the layout I'm looking for:

(or similar)

The only other possibility may be to convert a standard front engine 4wd gearbox, but I cannot think how or how easily this would be done...

Wich gearbox is use in the 205t16? where can i find one?

Thanks