Tuesday 15th September 2009

Frankfurt: BMW Vision Efficient Dynamics Concept

BMW's Eco supercar has us 'green' with envy...

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Vision ED shows BMW's future...

Newly crowned the world's most efficient car company (for the fifth year running), BMW has unveiled a raft of eco-friendly models at this year's Frankfurt motor show, topped off with the Vision Efficient Dynamics hybrid supercar concept.

True to its roots, However, BMW was keen to emphasise the fact that 'climate protection' can still be fun. As result the assembled crowd of hacks was presented with the twin-turbo V8 BMW X6 Active Hybrid (20 per cent more fuel efficient than the X6 xDrive50i), as well as a hybrid 7-series with the same engine (15 per cent more fuel efficient). BMW also unveiled the new 163hp 320d Efficient Dynamics Edition (a pukka junior sports saloon with a Prius-chasing 109g/km CO2 output).

...the 328 reminds us of its past

The big news, however, was the world show debut of the thoroughly futuristic BMW Vision Efficient Dynamics concept supercar that BMW revealed in pictures a few weeks ago.

You can read all about what BMW calls its 'CO2 champ' by following the link above, but suffice it to say that BMw's vision for the future is as sporty as it is green - this might be a 75mpg car that emits just 99g/km, but its three-cylinder turbodiesel hybrid powertrain is good for 356hp and 0-62mph in just 4.8secs.

 

[BoRED S2upid]

Was reading about the new M5 in Evo last night. Wow if that thing looks anything like that when / if its launched then it will be a little special, styling was very futuristic.

[Jimboza]

good on BMW, it's refreshing to see a big motor company do something positive and different to what we have seen in the past ie GM crushing the electric car plans etc

[gumsie]

.........Yeah, anyway.

A quick quote from the latest Autocar;
"While the swoopy new BMW boasts some advanced diesel-electric hybrid driveline technology beneath it's futuristic appearance. The truth is that A GOOD CHUNK of that 75mpg figure can be traced back to the way fuel consumption tests are carried out. Hybrids are tested under a process called the NEDC.............Some tests are able to get through the entire test using electric drive alone, with car makers simply calculating how much energy would have been expended by the petrol or diesel engine to make the drive."

Well then. Eyes open now are they?

BMW may just be really good at a) Calculating theoretical figures when real ones are easily at hand, or b) Just like you'd do well in an exam if you knew exactly what to revise-manufacturing the car to perform well in these contrived and not even close to real world tests.
The Motorway test for example covers a distance of 7km and they're given 400 seconds to complete it. That's right, an average of 63km/h. I'm pretty sure there are some mainstream motors now that could post pretty good figures running at that speed for that long.

Edited by gumsie on Tuesday 15th September 09:40

[JumpinJack]

0-62mph in 4.8 seconds.... for a hybrid....? NOW they're talking my language. Good on you BMW

[Mr Gear]

gumsie said:

.........Yeah, anyway.

A quick quote from the latest Autocar;
"While the swoopy new BMW boasts some advanced diesel-electric hybrid driveline technology beneath it's futuristic appearance. The truth is that A GOOD CHUNK of that 75mpg figure can be traced back to the way fuel consumption tests are carried out. Hybrids are tested under a process called the NEDC.............Some tests are able to get through the entire test using electric drive alone, with car makers simply calculating how much energy would have been expended by the petrol or diesel engine to make the drive."

Well then. Eyes open now are they?

BMW may just be really good at a) Calculating theoretical figures when real ones are easily at hand, or b) Just like you'd do well in an exam if you knew exactly what to revise-manufacturing the car to perform well in these contrived and not even close to real world tests.
The Motorway test for example covers a distance of 7km and they're given 400 seconds to complete it. That's right, an average of 63km/h. I'm pretty sure there are some mainstream motors now that could post pretty good figures running at that speed for that long.

Edited by gumsie on Tuesday 15th September 09:40

Of course, this is correct. But if every car is judged on the same criteria, what is there to complain about? You can't blame the car manufacturers. You're welcome to blame the stupid way in which the EU has designed the test, or the stupid way in which our government cashes in on it. People moaning that a Prius won't do 60mpg whilst being ragged around the Top Gear test track are fooling only themselves.

[gumsie]

Mr Gear said:

gumsie said:

.........Yeah, anyway.

A quick quote from the latest Autocar;
"While the swoopy new BMW boasts some advanced diesel-electric hybrid driveline technology beneath it's futuristic appearance. The truth is that A GOOD CHUNK of that 75mpg figure can be traced back to the way fuel consumption tests are carried out. Hybrids are tested under a process called the NEDC.............Some tests are able to get through the entire test using electric drive alone, with car makers simply calculating how much energy would have been expended by the petrol or diesel engine to make the drive."

Well then. Eyes open now are they?

BMW may just be really good at a) Calculating theoretical figures when real ones are easily at hand, or b) Just like you'd do well in an exam if you knew exactly what to revise-manufacturing the car to perform well in these contrived and not even close to real world tests.
The Motorway test for example covers a distance of 7km and they're given 400 seconds to complete it. That's right, an average of 63km/h. I'm pretty sure there are some mainstream motors now that could post pretty good figures running at that speed for that long.

Edited by gumsie on Tuesday 15th September 09:40

Of course, this is correct. But if every car is judged on the same criteria, what is there to complain about? You can't blame the car manufacturers. You're welcome to blame the stupid way in which the EU has designed the test, or the stupid way in which our government cashes in on it. People moaning that a Prius won't do 60mpg whilst being ragged around the Top Gear test track are fooling only themselves.

An excellent point sir, but if BMW were that confident about their claims would they not be doing real world tests and pointing out how the rest are cheating?

[Mr Gear]

gumsie said:

An excellent point sir, but if BMW were that confident about their claims would they not be doing real world tests and pointing out how the rest are cheating?

The "real world" doesn't exist to anyone apart from the individual. It doesn't matter what you set the test as... 100 miles an hour on the autobahn for 100 miles or 20 miles across town in stop-start traffic... you can engineer a car to excel in one or the other.

If I was doing big motorway miles, I'd buy a 320d. If I was crawling through traffic I'd consider a Prius. Both have a role to fulfil, and the manufacturers are smart enough to build different vehicles for different people.

Unfortunately, our government is stupid, and the way we are taxed is unfair. A Ferarri that does 1,000 miles a year at 300gc02/km produces less carbon dioxide than a Prius that does 10,000 miles a year. But which pays the most road tax? It's a horrifying mess that is both over-complex and over-simple in equal measure.

[havoc]

Mr Gear said:

Of course, this is correct. But if every car is judged on the same criteria, what is there to complain about? You can't blame the car manufacturers. You're welcome to blame the stupid way in which the EU has designed the test, or the stupid way in which our government cashes in on it. People moaning that a Prius won't do 60mpg whilst being ragged around the Top Gear test track are fooling only themselves.

The test is unrealistic, and results in sub-optimal decisions being made on erroneous 'statistics' (CO2 emissions and fuel economy) being published about the cars. Which actually HARMS the environment.




[Confession time: I'm an environmentalist! That is to say I want to see the biosphere of this planet preserved as far as possible (a lot more than currently). However, I DO NOT believe that the current fixation on CO2 emissions is anything other than a convenient political tool to make them look as if they're doing something while behind the scenes:-
- parcelling up the Arctic and Antarctic for oil exploration
- bulldozing another 10,000 hectares of rainforest to site the cattle farms for their cheap fillet steaks and to provide the hardwoods for their oh-so-expensive furniture.
- agreeing yet more excessive fishing quotas in return for backhanders or votes
- supporting regimes that are politically convenient yet which have terrible environmental or human-rights records
- completely ignoring the elephant in the room that is Indian and Chinese 'expansion'/'enrichment', which will place an ASTONISHING additional burden on this planet's already stretched resources
- completely failing to address the near-Malthusian expansion of humanity across this planet which will create more CO2 emissions than a million Range Rovers!
...and so on. In short, I want to string-up and torture every 'fake' (red) greenie who does nothing but bleat about cars and CO2, and do the same to every politician (starting with Al Gore, the arch-hypocrite) who mentions the "e" word or CO2 before coming out with a new tax or new method of social control!!!]

[Mr Gear]

havoc said:

Mr Gear said:

Of course, this is correct. But if every car is judged on the same criteria, what is there to complain about? You can't blame the car manufacturers. You're welcome to blame the stupid way in which the EU has designed the test, or the stupid way in which our government cashes in on it. People moaning that a Prius won't do 60mpg whilst being ragged around the Top Gear test track are fooling only themselves.

The test is unrealistic, and results in sub-optimal decisions being made on erroneous 'statistics' (CO2 emissions and fuel economy) being published about the cars. Which actually HARMS the environment.




[Confession time: I'm an environmentalist! That is to say I want to see the biosphere of this planet preserved as far as possible (a lot more than currently). However, I DO NOT believe that the current fixation on CO2 emissions is anything other than a convenient political tool to make them look as if they're doing something while behind the scenes:-
- parcelling up the Arctic and Antarctic for oil exploration
- bulldozing another 10,000 hectares of rainforest to site the cattle farms for their cheap fillet steaks and to provide the hardwoods for their oh-so-expensive furniture.
- agreeing yet more excessive fishing quotas in return for backhanders or votes
- supporting regimes that are politically convenient yet which have terrible environmental or human-rights records
- completely ignoring the elephant in the room that is Indian and Chinese 'expansion'/'enrichment', which will place an ASTONISHING additional burden on this planet's already stretched resources
- completely failing to address the near-Malthusian expansion of humanity across this planet which will create more CO2 emissions than a million Range Rovers!
...and so on. In short, I want to string-up and torture every 'fake' (red) greenie who does nothing but bleat about cars and CO2, and do the same to every politician (starting with Al Gore, the arch-hypocrite) who mentions the "e" word or CO2 before coming out with a new tax or new method of social control!!!]

I agree wholeheartedly with every word of that ^

The reason I was banging on about C02 was because that is what the government likes to use as it's yardstick for being "green". I think there is a LOT more to it than that, but they can't even sing from that over-simple hymnsheet without hitting bum notes along the way.

Edited by Mr Gear on Tuesday 15th September 12:50

[SleeperCell]

gumsie said:

Mr Gear said:

gumsie said:

.........Yeah, anyway.

A quick quote from the latest Autocar;
"While the swoopy new BMW boasts some advanced diesel-electric hybrid driveline technology beneath it's futuristic appearance. The truth is that A GOOD CHUNK of that 75mpg figure can be traced back to the way fuel consumption tests are carried out. Hybrids are tested under a process called the NEDC.............Some tests are able to get through the entire test using electric drive alone, with car makers simply calculating how much energy would have been expended by the petrol or diesel engine to make the drive."

Well then. Eyes open now are they?

BMW may just be really good at a) Calculating theoretical figures when real ones are easily at hand, or b) Just like you'd do well in an exam if you knew exactly what to revise-manufacturing the car to perform well in these contrived and not even close to real world tests.
The Motorway test for example covers a distance of 7km and they're given 400 seconds to complete it. That's right, an average of 63km/h. I'm pretty sure there are some mainstream motors now that could post pretty good figures running at that speed for that long.

Edited by gumsie on Tuesday 15th September 09:40

Of course, this is correct. But if every car is judged on the same criteria, what is there to complain about? You can't blame the car manufacturers. You're welcome to blame the stupid way in which the EU has designed the test, or the stupid way in which our government cashes in on it. People moaning that a Prius won't do 60mpg whilst being ragged around the Top Gear test track are fooling only themselves.

An excellent point sir, but if BMW were that confident about their claims would they not be doing real world tests and pointing out how the rest are cheating?

Well that's kinda been pointed out before in this article and many others.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/driving/used_car_...

But trouble is the test is the only standard most people have to measure by and therefore the best thing marketing departments have to work with. It's similar to benchmarking the 0-60mph times of cars, most of us know it's largely irrelevant to the real world and highly variable on factors like traction, weight at time of test and gear ratios yet it's still the default measurement after all this time. You occasionally get someone like Saab trying to change peoples minds by talking about in-gear acceleration but 0-60mph still remains in most peoples minds as the benchmark acceleration figure.

[Wadeski]

lets have a new 8er that looks just like that (but in one colour please)....

[qube_TA]

Never known of an efficient BMW, chap here at work has a 330 coupe which has a poorer fuel economy than my 21 year old Trans Am.

The only hybrid I've seen that looks interesting is the Chevy Volt concept, I like the idea of having a power generator on board your electric car, to me it offers the best solution to fuel economy.

Do all your commuting using batteries only, charge it using cheap electricity from home, longer distances the little on board petrol engine generates electricity to keep the battery charged and thus extending the range. The overall MPG is huge.

Now if a little 1.4 engine can provide enough electricity to power a regular family hatchback then you could have a V8 powering a 250MPH electric supercar, and still drive that for the daily commute using no more energy than a regular electric car.

Must be less complicated to make than switching the drive to the wheels from electric to internal combustion engine too.

[Mr Gear]

qube_TA said:

The only hybrid I've seen that looks interesting is the Chevy Volt concept, I like the idea of having a power generator on board your electric car, to me it offers the best solution to fuel economy.

Erm, it's a similar set up in this BMW I think. Plug-in hybrid.

[gumsie]

SleeperCell said:

gumsie said:

Mr Gear said:

gumsie said:

.........Yeah, anyway.

A quick quote from the latest Autocar;
"While the swoopy new BMW boasts some advanced diesel-electric hybrid driveline technology beneath it's futuristic appearance. The truth is that A GOOD CHUNK of that 75mpg figure can be traced back to the way fuel consumption tests are carried out. Hybrids are tested under a process called the NEDC.............Some tests are able to get through the entire test using electric drive alone, with car makers simply calculating how much energy would have been expended by the petrol or diesel engine to make the drive."

Well then. Eyes open now are they?

BMW may just be really good at a) Calculating theoretical figures when real ones are easily at hand, or b) Just like you'd do well in an exam if you knew exactly what to revise-manufacturing the car to perform well in these contrived and not even close to real world tests.
The Motorway test for example covers a distance of 7km and they're given 400 seconds to complete it. That's right, an average of 63km/h. I'm pretty sure there are some mainstream motors now that could post pretty good figures running at that speed for that long.

Edited by gumsie on Tuesday 15th September 09:40

Of course, this is correct. But if every car is judged on the same criteria, what is there to complain about? You can't blame the car manufacturers. You're welcome to blame the stupid way in which the EU has designed the test, or the stupid way in which our government cashes in on it. People moaning that a Prius won't do 60mpg whilst being ragged around the Top Gear test track are fooling only themselves.

An excellent point sir, but if BMW were that confident about their claims would they not be doing real world tests and pointing out how the rest are cheating?

Well that's kinda been pointed out before in this article and many others.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/driving/used_car_...

But trouble is the test is the only standard most people have to measure by and therefore the best thing marketing departments have to work with. It's similar to benchmarking the 0-60mph times of cars, most of us know it's largely irrelevant to the real world and highly variable on factors like traction, weight at time of test and gear ratios yet it's still the default measurement after all this time. You occasionally get someone like Saab trying to change peoples minds by talking about in-gear acceleration but 0-60mph still remains in most peoples minds as the benchmark acceleration figure.

Absolutely take your general point, but I think people rely more on 0-100 now.

[E21_Ross]

qube_TA said:

Never known of an efficient BMW, chap here at work has a 330 coupe which has a poorer fuel economy than my 21 year old Trans Am.

well there must be something wrong....my dads E92 M3 can return over 30mpg on a run, and i bet it's quicker than your trans am too when it needs to be. 320d is also a pretty economical diesel and not too weedy.

[qube_TA]

E21_Ross said:

qube_TA said:

Never known of an efficient BMW, chap here at work has a 330 coupe which has a poorer fuel economy than my 21 year old Trans Am.

well there must be something wrong....my dads E92 M3 can return over 30mpg on a run, and i bet it's quicker than your trans am too when it needs to be. 320d is also a pretty economical diesel and not too weedy.

Nope, my TA will do over 30MPG too, flat out his 330 is faster but getting there they're similar, the TA is very thirsty if you're spanking it but if you're driving normally the economy isn't bad at all certainly better than his. Not going to pretend my old car is anything other than a tatty old POS but the idea that BMW's are efficient is a joke (my CLK320 is also very poor on fuel).

[qube_TA]

Mr Gear said:

qube_TA said:

The only hybrid I've seen that looks interesting is the Chevy Volt concept, I like the idea of having a power generator on board your electric car, to me it offers the best solution to fuel economy.

Erm, it's a similar set up in this BMW I think. Plug-in hybrid.

I didn't get that from the description, looks like the engine still drives the wheels, could be wrong, the Volt is claiming up to 200MPG though.

[Mr Gear]

qube_TA said:

Mr Gear said:

qube_TA said:

The only hybrid I've seen that looks interesting is the Chevy Volt concept, I like the idea of having a power generator on board your electric car, to me it offers the best solution to fuel economy.

Erm, it's a similar set up in this BMW I think. Plug-in hybrid.

I didn't get that from the description, looks like the engine still drives the wheels, could be wrong, the Volt is claiming up to 200MPG though.

Yeah, the petrol engine and electric engine drive the same driveshaft, but the impression I got is that they can operate independently, and you can charge the batteries without running the petrol engine... therefore, plug-in hybrid. But not exactly the same layout as a Volt in fairness.

[BlackSteel]

gumsie said:

.........Yeah, anyway.

A quick quote from the latest Autocar;
"While the swoopy new BMW boasts some advanced diesel-electric hybrid driveline technology beneath it's futuristic appearance. The truth is that A GOOD CHUNK of that 75mpg figure can be traced back to the way fuel consumption tests are carried out. Hybrids are tested under a process called the NEDC.............Some tests are able to get through the entire test using electric drive alone, with car makers simply calculating how much energy would have been expended by the petrol or diesel engine to make the drive."

Well then. Eyes open now are they?

BMW may just be really good at a) Calculating theoretical figures when real ones are easily at hand, or b) Just like you'd do well in an exam if you knew exactly what to revise-manufacturing the car to perform well in these contrived and not even close to real world tests.
The Motorway test for example covers a distance of 7km and they're given 400 seconds to complete it. That's right, an average of 63km/h. I'm pretty sure there are some mainstream motors now that could post pretty good figures running at that speed for that long.

Edited by gumsie on Tuesday 15th September 09:40

Your point is? Not shore what your trying to say. Are BMW the only manufactor to do it this way?
Please. They all do it. BMW just does it better than the rest.

Even if it only does 55 miles to the gallon it is still far better than anybody elses effort.

Bet your an audi driver. Note to capital. What was it Clarkson said............

[qube_TA]

BlackSteel said:

Even if it only does 55 miles to the gallon it is still far better than anybody elses effort.

http://money.cnn.com/2009/08/11/autos/volt_mpg/index.htm?postversion=2009081108