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seanmaccann
Original Poster
30 posts
18 months
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JBL930
1,035 posts
43 months
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On the 9M dyno anything is possible, in reality no it isn't
ENGINE • 3.82-liter normally aspirated flat six 8000 rpm limit • 9M (Ninemeister) machined from solid cylinder heads • 9M individual throttle bodies • 9M 103mm pistons and cylinders • 9M valve springs and retainers • 9M camshaft • 997 GT3 crankshaft • 997 GT3R oil pump • 997 GT3 titanium connecting rods • Motec M800 ECU with data logging, launch/ traction control • Lightweight wiring loom • Lightweight stainless steel header / heat exchanger system with 100 cell cats, Singer stainless steel muffler • 425 BHP / 340 lb. ft. torque • 0-60 mph – 3.9 seconds • 0-100 mph – 8.5 seconds • Top speed 170+ mph
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98C4S
1,158 posts
17 months
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No Way.
375 Ponies absolute Max
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robmug
794 posts
90 months
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98C4S said: No Way.
375 Ponies absolute Max why would your guess of 375 be more accurate than a dyno tested figure? What's your reasoning for plucking that figure out of the air?
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BertBert
2,522 posts
38 months
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Not saying it does it, but with the raw numbers... If max power (or close) comes around 8000rpm, then it that would be 280lbft of torque. Doesn't sound impossible from a numbers perspective!!! But then armchair tuning is easy  Bert
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98C4S
1,158 posts
17 months
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robmug said: 98C4S said: No Way.
375 Ponies absolute Max why would your guess of 375 be more accurate than a dyno tested figure? What's your reasoning for plucking that figure out of the air? My guess isnt an accurate/specific figure, Im saying the maximum it would be is 375, Why? Because the Factory Porsche 3.8 upgrade on the 993 engine is rated at 300bhp. You would barely get 400bhp adding a single turbo, and probably 350-375 with a supercharger. When I had my 993 C4S, and I looked at every tuning option this side of forced induction. And no one could get to more than a reliable 350bhp. And as for dyno reads, they are as accurate as a drunk golfer.
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911teo
178 posts
21 months
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98C4S said: robmug said: 98C4S said: No Way.
375 Ponies absolute Max why would your guess of 375 be more accurate than a dyno tested figure? What's your reasoning for plucking that figure out of the air? My guess isnt an accurate/specific figure, Im saying the maximum it would be is 375, Why? Because the Factory Porsche 3.8 upgrade on the 993 engine is rated at 300bhp. You would barely get 400bhp adding a single turbo, and probably 350-375 with a supercharger. When I had my 993 C4S, and I looked at every tuning option this side of forced induction. And no one could get to more than a reliable 350bhp. And as for dyno reads, they are as accurate as a drunk golfer. I think you did not do your homework properly... That engine costs around £40,000. There are hours spent tuning it and the ECU (Motec M600-M800) alone costs £4,500. I have less extreme version of that engine in my 911. My car pulls away from a 997 Turbo and GT3 RS on the track. My car is dynoed at 406HP @7,600 rpm.
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JBL930
1,035 posts
43 months
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911teo said: 98C4S said: robmug said: 98C4S said: No Way.
375 Ponies absolute Max why would your guess of 375 be more accurate than a dyno tested figure? What's your reasoning for plucking that figure out of the air? My guess isnt an accurate/specific figure, Im saying the maximum it would be is 375, Why? Because the Factory Porsche 3.8 upgrade on the 993 engine is rated at 300bhp. You would barely get 400bhp adding a single turbo, and probably 350-375 with a supercharger. When I had my 993 C4S, and I looked at every tuning option this side of forced induction. And no one could get to more than a reliable 350bhp. And as for dyno reads, they are as accurate as a drunk golfer. I think you did not do your homework properly... That engine costs around £40,000. There are hours spent tuning it and the ECU (Motec M600-M800) alone costs £4,500. I have less extreme version of that engine in my 911. My car pulls away from a 997 Turbo and GT3 RS on the track. My car is dynoed at 406HP @7,600 rpm. On which dyno?
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911teo
178 posts
21 months
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Who cares... all dynos are different, different conditions and different fudge factors.
Dynos are only useful to make comparisons on changes/upgrades on the same car.
As I told you my car pulls away from a 997 GT3 RS.
A 997 GT3 RS is 1,375kg and 415HP
A 997 Turbo is 1,440kg and 530HP
My car weighs around 1,200-1,250KG.
You do the math...
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DJB321
66 posts
37 months
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98C4S said: No Way.
375 Ponies absolute Max I disagree, it's possible to achieve that level of power from a 3.8 litre engine. A very highly tuned NA engine can produce a maximum of about 90lbft per litre, which in this case would equate to a maximum of 344.70lbft of torque. Where that is produced will depend most significantly on the cam profile and timing, but if it's produced at the rev limit at 8000rpm then that will equate to 524bhp at the crank. 425bhp is therefore eminently possible from a 3.82 litre NA engine with an 8krpm rev limit. Whether or not Singer have managed to do so with their engine is another matter, and will largely depend on how well the head flows in order to optimise VE, but it's eminently doable.
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JBL930
1,035 posts
43 months
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Matteo, are you on about your RSR replica or does your 993 also have a 9M built engine? Your RSR replica wieghs about 1050kgs doesn't it?
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JBL930
1,035 posts
43 months
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DJB321 said: 98C4S said: No Way.
375 Ponies absolute Max I disagree, it's possible to achieve that level of power from a 3.8 litre engine. A very highly tuned NA engine can produce a maximum of about 90lbft per litre, which in this case would equate to a maximum of 344.70lbft of torque. Where that is produced will depend most significantly on the cam profile and timing, but if it's produced at the rev limit at 8000rpm then that will equate to 524bhp at the crank. 425bhp is therefore eminently possible from a 3.82 litre NA engine with an 8krpm rev limit. Whether or not Singer have managed to do so with their engine is another matter, and will largely depend on how well the head flows in order to optimise VE, but it's eminently doable. Where is this information coming from? I think you may need to read this thread http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/showthread.p...
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DJB321
66 posts
37 months
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The torque to power conversion (power=torque*revs/5250) is, I believe, fairly well known. If you need a reference, try Google - there are plenty of places where that formula exists. As for the maximum torque per litre, that's from my experience of race engines. As for the Rennlist article, it doesn't really help in this case but if anything it supports what I've said. BMEP = 150.8 x torque (in lbft)/capacity (in cubic inches) - again, if you want a reference, just Google it, it's hardly arcane knowledge. A 3.82 litre engine has a capacity of 233ci. So BMEP for that engine is torque * 150.8 / 233, which equates to BMEP = torque x 0.64.
Plug in my hypothetical figures, with torque at 344lbft, and that equates to a BMEP of 220. High, undoubtedly, hence my reference to 'a very highly tuned engine'.
Even with a less extreme BMEP figure, 425bhp is still eminently achievable. Let's take a BMEP figure of 200. That would give a maximum torque of 312.5 lbft, or 82 lbft per litre. That is definitely achievable - a well tuned VX/Duratec/K-series can get to 85lbft per litre. That would mean, if maximum torque is produced at the revlimit at 8000rpm, that maximum power is 475bhp. Still well above the figure claimed.
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JBL930
1,035 posts
43 months
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Ultra Violent
2,387 posts
96 months
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I have a new NA engine for my RSR. 3.82ltr, 720bhp at 8760rpm. Hope to have it ready next week.
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JBL930
1,035 posts
43 months
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Ultra Violent said: I have a new NA engine for my RSR. 3.82ltr, 720bhp at 8760rpm. Hope to have it ready next week. Good one James 
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Ultra Violent
2,387 posts
96 months
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sleep envy
40,928 posts
76 months
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JBL930 said: On the 9M dyno anything is possible, in reality no it isn't 
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DJB321
66 posts
37 months
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JBL930 said: Depends. Where max torque will be will depend, largely, on the cam profile and timing. There's no reason why it shouldn't be at 8000rpm - plenty of engines out there have maximum power produced at 8000rpm or higher. 3 I've got fitted in my cars, for starters. Equally, I don't know where you've got the max BMEP figure of 180 from, other than thin air. If it's got custom cylinder heads then there's no reason in principle why it shouldn't have a BMEP of 200, although whether it does in fact have a BMEP of 200 I couldn't say. If max BMEP is 180 and maximum torque is produced at 5300rpm then maximum power will be 283bhp up to 5300rpm, although max power may be greater higher up the rev range even though the torque is lower. However, if the cylinder heads flow well, so maximum BMEP's higher, and if the cam timing is more aggressive, so max torque is produced higher up the rev range, then it could be significantly higher. The fact is, I don't know and you don't know what this engine will actually produce. However, there is no reason in principle why a 3.82l NA engine should not be capable of producing 425bhp. EFA...
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JBL930
1,035 posts
43 months
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DJB321 said: JBL930 said: Depends. Where max torque will be will depend, largely, on the cam profile and timing. There's no reason why it shouldn't be at 8000rpm - plenty of engines out there have maximum power produced at 8000rpm or higher. 3 I've got fitted in my cars, for starters. Equally, I don't know where you've got the max BMEP figure of 180 from, other than thin air. If it's got custom cylinder heads then there's no reason in principle why it shouldn't have a BMEP of 200, although whether it does in fact have a BMEP of 200 I couldn't say. If max BMEP is 180 and maximum torque is produced at 5300rpm then maximum power will be 283bhp. However, if the cylinder heads flow well, so maximum BMEP's higher, and if the cam timing is more aggressive, so max torque is produced higher up the rev range, then it could be significantly higher. The fact is, I don't know and you don't know what this engine will actually produce. However, there is no reason in principle why a 3.82l NA engine should not be capable of producing 425bhp. The link i posted earlier showed a dyno graph from the builder of a similar engine http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/964-forum/33... bigger but with even more (apparent) power. I would assume peak torque will come in around the same area, 5300rpm. You seam good with these calculations, so lets assume that peak torque comes in at 5300rpm and he produces a real 425bhp, what is his actual BMEP?
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