Login | Register
SearchMy Stuff
My ProfileMy PreferencesMy Mates RSS Feed
2
Reply to Topic
Author Discussion

constablergt

Original Poster:

72 posts

71 months

[news] 
Monday 9th November 2009 quote quote all
While I have been out in the states I stumbled across a company in Phoenix (TA Performance) that are producing their own custom heads for the Rover V8. He had based the head from a small Buick v6 similar to the 215 Buick that Rover based the V8 we know today. I asked why and it turns out that a guy in Australia is interested in selling them on over there with a new manifold as well.


My Question is: He is sure that the head will get around 300 cubic inches of airflow from this new design.

Q1 What is current air flow on a rover head as I have no idea.


Q2 What performance increases will be possible.

Q3 The new design has valves that will sit flush to the pistons, what will be the difference from the old design airflow/power.

These are some pictures of the work in progress






rev-erend

18,232 posts

168 months

[news] 
Monday 9th November 2009 quote quote all
Looks interesting .. bit of a shame the market for new alternative heads will be so small.

THe only figures I have are 105 cubic feet/min for the best Rover based heads and 130 cubic feet/min plus for Wildcats..
but as with all measurements they need to be tested on the same machine under the same conditions and at the same valve lift.

saml666

214 posts

112 months

[news] 
Monday 9th November 2009 quote quote all
There was a lot of talk about Merlin F85 heads a year or so ago for the RV8, I enquired via Real Steel and, well, lets just say they were evasive!

They were supposed to run slightly higher exhaust ports making them flow better among other improvements, does anynoe know if they ever materialised in high enough numbers to buy easily?

Excuse me if they're now as common as, I didn't bother loking again after I tried for 3 months to get some and am staying with my Stage 3 BV heads.

Cheers,
Sam

Barkychoc

7,395 posts

88 months

[news] 
Monday 9th November 2009 quote quote all
I'm slightly surprised they have gone with 14 head bolts but then I guess its still developing.

hiltonig

2,578 posts

92 months

[news] 
Monday 9th November 2009 quote quote all
I looked at wildcat heads, great for racing but not sure about general road use. Also orignal manifolds wont fit
Advertisement

350Matt

3,370 posts

163 months

[news] 
Tuesday 10th November 2009 quote quote all
A couple of guys have run Merlins on the V8 forum

http://www.v8forum.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=550...

so far results are a bit inconclusive but one chap has got 14Hp increase over his already flowed heads

from what I've seen of them they look pretty promising and good value for money,

you would have to modify the exhaust Y piece on our cars tho'

spend

12,455 posts

135 months

[news] 
Tuesday 10th November 2009 quote quote all
350Matt said:
A..so far results are a bit inconclusive but one chap has got 14Hp increase over his already flowed heads..
When TVR BV heads are compared against decent flowed / ported / polished TVR (std valve size) heads we are looking at 20-30bhp difference. I pretty much interpreted it as the RS heads weren't worth it, unless you were prepared to start modding them heavily.

The TA heads are kind of interesting in that lots of Buick V6 trick valve gear can be used. The centre line of the valves is different which theoretically means larger valves can be used. We are still pretty much in the early days of development of the TA heads but they may be the best bet in the future.

WTF does anyone even bother to comment on having 4 extra bolt holes, it is completely insignificant, but many older motors would rather fit the studs & bolts at reduced torque..

All of these alternate heads require significant changes to the manifolds in & ex...

At the end of the day TVR BV heads are good for more than most people want, and when you add up everything required cost less than the alternatives. Don't be confused by the ramblngs from Rover & Buick camps that can't conceive the effects of TVR's BV heads wink

BV heads can still be improved, bit more porting, guide work, offset guides for bigger valves, 6mm stems... Yet at the end of the day the most restrictive areas are not the heads in the induction so the benefits are not cost effective. Remove the greatest restriction as you find it & KISS hehe

900T-R

19,366 posts

141 months

[news] 
Tuesday 10th November 2009 quote quote all
spend said:
350Matt said:
A..so far results are a bit inconclusive but one chap has got 14Hp increase over his already flowed heads..
When TVR BV heads are compared against decent flowed / ported / polished TVR (std valve size) heads we are looking at 20-30bhp difference.
Which would have a 500 on std valve size heads producing less power than a std 430/450. wink

spend

12,455 posts

135 months

[news] 
Tuesday 10th November 2009 quote quote all
900T-R said:
spend said:
350Matt said:
A..so far results are a bit inconclusive but one chap has got 14Hp increase over his already flowed heads..
When TVR BV heads are compared against decent flowed / ported / polished TVR (std valve size) heads we are looking at 20-30bhp difference.
Which would have a 500 on std valve size heads producing less power than a std 430/450. wink
I wonder if I added 4mm on the outside of your pizza you'd keep bleeting as much....

A 500 in comparable tune is always going to make more torque & power than an equivalent lower capacity. (thats a FULL STOP BTW).

Can we stop these childish snipings, I too love my 430, but by no means disrespect all the longer stroke motors out there. If you want to rev the things more it isn't the stroke & crank that are stopping you! If you want them to spin up faster - thats what torque does...


900T-R

19,366 posts

141 months

[news] 
Tuesday 10th November 2009 quote quote all
spend said:
I wonder if I added 4mm on the outside of your pizza you'd keep bleeting as much....
???

spend said:
A 500 in comparable tune is always going to make more torque & power than an equivalent lower capacity. (thats a FULL STOP BTW).
-> thus you're overstating the extra power the BV heads make over std size valved TVR head - at least in std TVR applications - given that there's less than 20-30 bhp between an average 430 BV (on 38 mm intake porting!) and an average 500. 10-15 bhp would be my guess, although the difference in ultimate potential might well be a lot greater.

And I still think 5 litre+ RV8 applications are missing the point - at least with Rover head castings. tongue out

Edited by 900T-R on Tuesday 10th November 16:05

spend

12,455 posts

135 months

[news] 
Tuesday 10th November 2009 quote quote all
You are mixing up the comparisons of different heads (on the same engines) and capacity (state of tune means just different crank/rod/pistons) to suit your own misplaced ideas....

Good heads will give increases, greater capacity will yield improvements... Is that too complicated? Confusing the performance of various Rover & TVR due to simply engine sizes rather than what goes into each engine is somewhat misguided IMHO.

900T-R

19,366 posts

141 months

[news] 
Tuesday 10th November 2009 quote quote all
spend said:
You are mixing up the comparisons of different heads (on the same engines) and capacity (state of tune means just different crank/rod/pistons) to suit your own misplaced ideas....
So you're saying that TVR Power built the 5 litres to a worse standard - which would be the only way to explain that despite them being the only engines with ported intake manifolds and 44 mm trumpet bases they fail to realise the sort of difference that you are quoting for the BV heads alone?

What remains is that given a clean sheet, one would never dream of designing a 5 litre 2-valve V8 engine with intakes as small as 43 mm, let alone the stuff that sits on top of the heads (which is where gains should come from). Everything about the RV8 just sits a lot easier with 4 litres rather than 5 or more.
All else being the same, you won't make any more power with bigger capacity - you're just making as much as the induction and heads will flow at a lower rpm level - fact. Do we want even lower rpm levels in a lightweight sports car (and that's disregarding the engineering compromises made to get at 5 litres or more within the confines of the RV8) ? scratchchin

spend

12,455 posts

135 months

[news] 
Tuesday 10th November 2009 quote quote all
Simon Says said:
Thanks Neal wink Spend was right then i need to remove the sump frown OUCH that hurt irked ..... laugh
Simon Says said:
QUESTION,,,,Whats the difference between Spend & God? scratchchin ,,,,,,,ANSWER,,,God don't think he's Spend rofl Oh he likes to move the goal posts does Spendy rolleyes
Just Pathetic....

mr-scott

72 posts

166 months

[news] 
Tuesday 24th November 2009 quote quote all
These TA heads look to be based on the 231 3.8 litre Buick V6 heads - note the tall slim inlet ports. Way back in 1979 Buick made a major improvement in design to the previous heads which were similar to the Rover V8/ Buick 215 & better 300 heads, I'm sure the V6 heads were like 300 heads with 2 cylinders less (3.8 litre V6 = same cylinder size as 307 ci V8) anyway in '79 buick increased the flow over the previous V6 heads by 47% intake ports and 83% exhaust (high inlet and exhaust port, better short turn radius) as well as making small changes to the combustion chamber shape, they continued improving these heads further with the 'turbo heads' a subject in its self! These heads should be ideal for large capacity Rover V8s, with a minimum improvement over std. heads as stated above - pity Rover/Landrover engine development engineers didn't look at these when improving the Rover V8, talk about an opportunity handed on a plate that they missed!

constablergt said:
While I have been out in the states I stumbled across a company in Phoenix (TA Performance) that are producing their own custom heads for the Rover V8. He had based the head from a small Buick v6 similar to the 215 Buick that Rover based the V8 we know today. I asked why and it turns out that a guy in Australia is interested in selling them on over there with a new manifold as well.


My Question is: He is sure that the head will get around 300 cubic inches of airflow from this new design.

Q1 What is current air flow on a rover head as I have no idea.


Q2 What performance increases will be possible.

Q3 The new design has valves that will sit flush to the pistons, what will be the difference from the old design airflow/power.

These are some pictures of the work in progress





rev-erend

18,232 posts

168 months

[news] 
Tuesday 24th November 2009 quote quote all
Perhaps they should have just made it a hemi and be done with all these wedge head designs... frown and made it less that a 90 deg V8 .. say 75 .. to give the exhaust ports / headers a better chance of breathing better.

900T-R

19,366 posts

141 months

[news] 
Tuesday 24th November 2009 quote quote all
rev-erend said:
Perhaps they should have just made it a hemi and be done with all these wedge head designs... frown and made it less that a 90 deg V8 .. say 75 .. to give the exhaust ports / headers a better chance of breathing better.
Or just put a 90 deg crank in an AJP... wink

spend

12,455 posts

135 months

[news] 
Tuesday 24th November 2009 quote quote all
TA just tweaked one of their 'developed' V6 designs asI understand it.

The Buick V6 has quite a history in competition if you care to delve wink

rev-erend

18,232 posts

168 months

[news] 
Tuesday 24th November 2009 quote quote all
I believe TVR in the early Wheeler years faced the same dilema..

RV8 developed about as far as it could go reliabily .. and with the cost of the basic unit plus the cost of pottential new development parts made it too expensive..

Then he bumped into Melling who investigated new heads but said the bottom end is the cheap bit the heads the expensive bit .. oh and by the way I have this V8 more or less ready to go .. and thats kind of how the AJP V8 came about but it was dry sumped .. but that made it too expensive per unit .. so the dry sump was dropped in favour of a cheaper solution.

constablergt

Original Poster:

72 posts

71 months

[news] 
Thursday 26th November 2009 quote quote all
[quote=mr-scott]These TA heads look to be based on the 231 3.8 litre Buick V6 heads - note the tall slim inlet ports. Way back in 1979 Buick made a major improvement in design to the previous heads which were similar to the Rover V8/ Buick 215 & better 300 heads, I'm sure the V6 heads were like 300 heads with 2 cylinders less (3.8 litre V6 = same cylinder size as 307 ci V8) anyway in '79 buick increased the flow over the previous V6 heads by 47% intake ports and 83% exhaust (high inlet and exhaust port, better short turn radius) as well as making small changes to the combustion chamber shape, they continued improving these heads further with the 'turbo heads' a subject in its self! These heads should be ideal for large capacity Rover V8s, with a minimum improvement over std. heads as stated above - pity Rover/Landrover engine development engineers didn't look at these when improving the Rover V8, talk about an opportunity handed on a plate that they missed!



Found this picture as well, i will be keeping in contact with owner of TA and i will keep you all posted thanks of progress, Cheers


mr-scott

72 posts

166 months

[news] 
Tuesday 8th December 2009 quote quote all
Barkychoc said:
I'm slightly surprised they have gone with 14 head bolts but then I guess its still developing.
They've left the bosses for additional 4 holes if you look closely to make potentially and 18 bolt head, like the Oldsmobile F85 (Buick 215 V8 sister engine) this removes the problem with uneven clamping with the 14 bolt headand gives you greater and even head clamping which is good for forced induction, i.e. turbos and superchargers!
2
Reply to Topic